Predictions for Tier List v4 (Includes overview of entire cast)

[Kitamerby]

^
They do, because that doesn't actually work.

Actually, it works just fine. Except dthrow only works 9x iirc.

Marth's Dthrow and Fthrow are both legit cgs on some chars, including Fox, Falco, and Pikachu, and at certain % lead into guaranted dairs or tipper fsmashes.

For example, Pikachu gets dthrown 9x into tipper fsmash for 64% iirc from 0%.

Never underestimate the power of a spacey to get chaingrabbed.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Actually, it works just fine. Except dthrow only works 9x iirc.

Marth's Dthrow and Fthrow are both legit cgs on some chars, including Fox, Falco, and Pikachu, and at certain % lead into guaranted dairs or fsmashes.

For example, Pikachu gets dthrown 9x into tipper fsmash for 64% iirc from 0%.

On falco the CG is 'till 41%.
Fthrow can be done twice then spike.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

BlazingKatakiri sounds pretty correct about Homing Attack (I didn't watch the video). It's a mix-up. Super low "charge release" is really nice, and it can launch in any direction which is pretty good itself. Just hit them, follow them, and sometimes (and only sometimes, mix it up!) use Homing Attack. Utilize the button press mechanic correctly so you release the Homing Attack at an unpredictable time each time so it's hard to airdodge. Your opponent has to first guess whether you'll follow up with a normal move or a Homing Attack. If they guess normal attack, they'll probably airdodge immediately and eat Homing Attack as they come out of it. If they guess Homing Attack, they'll wait and eat the normal attack. Then, if they guess Homing Attack, they have a bit of a remaining guessing game with the timing. If they don't get that right, they eat it anyway. Obviously Sonic has to be smart and not try this when the circumstance is wrong and the opponent has more options that cause Sonic more trouble, but that should really go without saying. I'm obviously not going to use Sonic (Why would I do that to myself? Sonic is everything I don't want in a character.), but from playing against Sonic, I've seen it made useful. It's obviously not his best move at all, but it's also pretty obviously far from useless. Very few moves are actually useless, and by not using moves that can be useful, you're really only limiting yourself.

As per Ivysaur, he is probably usually underrated (obviously much better than Captain Falcon and Ganondorf), but Ivysaur is pretty limited. The recovery is worse than Olimar's because Olimar gets a horizontal "bump" while Ivysaur's is purely vertical, and Ivysaur's air speed is effectively worse because of his extremely low top speed (.75, equal to Meta Knight's, and tied for third to last). Ivysaur has effective trouble killing because all of his moves that actually kill low are pretty hard to land. Zoning is the dominant tactic with Ivysaur, but Razor Leaf is one of the easier projectiles to powershield, and bair (Ivysaur's most disjointed move by far) does so little damage that a lot of characters can just shrug it off. Bullet Seed gets worse at higher levels because good SDI really limits how much damage it does. Ivysaur's elemental gimmick does it no services either since all it really means is that several characters can KO him earlier with some moves (Captain Falcon fsmash, Samus dtilt, Mr. Game & Watch fsmash, Charizard everything, Olimar red pikmin anything, Luigi Fire Jump Punch). Ivysaur does indeed work kinda like you were saying in terms of playstyle, but you seem a little too... enthusiastic; you're wearing rose colored glasses when you assess how good what you're doing is compared to what other characters can do. Ivysaur isn't horrible, but he's definitely mediocre. Pokemon Trainer is a team anyway so ranking him alone doesn't really make sense, but if you were to say any one Pokemon holds Pokemon Trainer back, I think it would be hard to say it's not Ivysaur (though, to be fair, Charizard holds him back quite a bit too next to the glory that is Squirtle).

 

[FaWa]

Wonderful to see you have puff moving from F to E, but you fail to mention her air game.

 

[Blubba_Pinecone]

I have to be honest, I don't understand the F tier at all.

Ganon is listed as something that can't even attack or defend, and Link is under him for what? His recovery?

Makes no sense to me. Link can put up a decent defensive game at the least, and his recovery, although crappy, is probably still better than Ganon's.

Those reasons are barely even scratching the surface, but yeah.

It's a nice prediction list though. Bias from me or not, I really can't see Link falling to last.

 

[Xerit]

Honestly Ganon is deservedly the worst character in the game.

Link does not have better recovery though. While his Up-B is harder to stop once its started, its range is so horrible if you get hit at all after you get knocked off the stage you are probably dead.

I play around with ganon alot for fun and I can tell you his up-b covers some ridiculous distances, that outstreched fist of his seems to be part of his catch box and it actually extends about another fist or so beyond that hand.

Link on the other hand almost needs to be humping the edge to grab it, and as I said earlier his vertical and horizontal recovery from his up-b is horrible.

Now ON the stage, your spot on. This summer at OHSNAP I watched Legan's (sp? sorry if its wrong) Link hold his own against Dojo's MK. Link has some great tools on the stage.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I have to be honest, I don't understand the F tier at all.

Ganon is listed as something that can't even attack or defend, and Link is under him for what? His recovery?

Makes no sense to me. Link can put up a decent defensive game at the least, and his recovery, although crappy, is probably still better than Ganon's.

Those reasons are barely even scratching the surface, but yeah.

It's a nice prediction list though. Bias from me or not, I really can't see Link falling to last.

Please note that the characters are not ordered within the tiers.

lrn2readOP

 

[orange/xd]

lrn2readOP

Arguing if you didn't read the whole post is just lol

 

[Blubba_Pinecone]

Well, the reason I proposed that Link's recover is better is that he has the ability to defend himself much better, not to mention versatility. Tactics such as covering the ledge with a rang help a ton, not to mention that if you ZAC MC after your DI, there's a good chance the bomb you're holding will boost you. Also, with Link DI'ing high to survive, it puts him at a good position to come back to the stage while defending himself. Ganon really doesn't have any of these options. Again, just barely scratching the surface, but you know what I mean. Recovery is more than just UpB vertical distance.

Link's ledge snapping is a little strange, but it's not as bad as most think it is. In fact, a properly spaced recovery by a Link can snap to the ledge from surprisingly far distances. o_O

Haha, and trust me, the Link boards' joke that I have Hover Boots wasn't given from a lack of recovery prowess. ;3

Yeah. Legan and etc. He gets a lot of attention from being flashy, and really, he's good, but there are a couple better onstage Links than even him. I'd vouch for Deva and KirinBlaze. Legan is a bit overly offensive and gets himself needlessly punished.


Edit: Fyi, I did read the whole post, but frankly, I don't care. I still want to assert my opinion. Thanks for assuming that I'm ignorant though, I appreciate it.

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

Honestly Ganon is deservedly the worst character in the game.

Link does not have better recovery though. While his Up-B is harder to stop once its started, its range is so horrible if you get hit at all after you get knocked off the stage you are probably dead.

I play around with ganon alot for fun and I can tell you his up-b covers some ridiculous distances, that outstreched fist of his seems to be part of his catch box and it actually extends about another fist or so beyond that hand.

Link on the other hand almost needs to be humping the edge to grab it, and as I said earlier his vertical and horizontal recovery from his up-b is horrible.

Now ON the stage, your spot on. This summer at OHSNAP I watched Legan's (sp? sorry if its wrong) Link hold his own against Dojo's MK. Link has some great tools on the stage.

More distance doesn't mean much when one gimp it really all it takes. Link's recovery, while it does have shorter distance, is actually harder to gimp than Ganon's, mainly because of the priority it has around it.

Furthermore, Ganondorf can be hit out of his recovery by about character in the game.

 

[CRASHiC]

link's bomb jump zam.

 

[FatJackieChan]

S Tier

I think top 4 right now is easily MK, Diddy, Snake, IC in no particular order. That would be my S-tier. I greatly enjoy this, because it makes the top of the game very dynamic. I'm really loving the Brawl Metagame right now.

MK is MK. I'm not really going to say much about him, because he's been discussed enough already, but it's clear that he's top 4 in the game. However, I'd like to note that despite his powerful offensive and defensive options, I am beginning to doubt if he is the best character in the game.
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I fail to see why you think this. But I can only assume that it is because he has no range, and he has no what I call "tricks". A trick being moves that strengthen a character by using single moves in a certain way. I'll go into more later. He is naturally powerful. The popular trick, tornado, is starting to find holes. Kirby's F-smash, stopping it from a distance, C-sticking out of it. He is the most powerful without a doubt. But the best. I agree that you might just be right.


Diddy Kong is really stupid. Many of you might say, "But Pierce, you're biased, you train with ADHD." That's true, but I'm not dumb, and I'm really good at analyzing characters. Diddy Kong is a very interesting character, in that I find he has a lot of the same broken characteristics of MK (minus the 5 jumps). He never needs to commit to an approach. He has a modifiable grabbing approach to bypass shields. He has an attack which, when it hits you, reduces your options to ZERO and then FOUR, and it combos into itself. There is a lot of stuff I know about Diddy, but I'm not going to make this all about Diddy Kong. If you want to learn more about Diddy Kong, please await my new thread in the Diddy boards coming out sometime this week titled, "Diddy Kong is the best character in the game." Needless to repeat, I think that right now, Diddy Kong is the best character in the game.
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This I don't agree with. He is up there, but he can be by-passed by heavies like Snake and D3. He isn't strong enough so he can be brought down. And without those 5 jumps, he just can't get back up. He's good, but not the best in the game. His banana trick is good, just not that good.


Ice Climbers are also mad broken. They have a projectile, which encourages your opponents to approach. De-synched Blizzard is a stupidly solid wall. Their Uair deals massive damage and combos, solidifying their Blizzard wall. They have good kill power and priority. And of course, the chain-grab. As our IC players are perfecting their craft, one grab is becoming the loss of a stock. And let's face it, it's not that hard to get grabbed in Brawl. With pivot grabbed, and de-synched techniques, all an IC player needs is for you to mess up once, or to read one dodge, and GGs. This is a stupidly devastating character.
Fortunately, both Diddy and ICs have an extremely exploitable weakness. Diddy, though solid without them, is not nearly as devastating without his bananas. ICs can have Nana killed off since she is controlled by an AI when separated, and this leaves Popo vastly weakened. MK does not suffer from such an exploitable weakness.
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This is true, the lack of Nana makes Popo the ultimate lose. In my opinion, it is the same as loosing a stock. When I brawl, after I make a kill I try to live as long as possible and try to hurt as much as possible. That is what I would do without Nana. But, after I saw 0-125%Death by charge forward, I decided that it wasn't important. Although not the best in the game, that trick is so powerful that they could take #1.


Lastly in S-Tier, we have Snake. Now, I used to love Snake, but recently, he's been frustrating me. The reason for this is because I'm realizing that Snake's stupid weight class alone increases virtually every single one of his MUs by about 10 points or more. Now, that might be a no-brainer, but let's think about this for a second. I think if D3 or DK were mid-weight, or at least lower heavy weight (C. Falcon or Yoshi) that Marth would go even with these characters. But it only changes the MU by about 5 points. In the instance of Snake, he potentially has a positive MU over Marth, Diddy, and even with MK, etc, off of sheer weight class. It's a bit ridiculous. Coupled with his reliable kill power, stupid damage output, and amazing recovery, Snake is really great. Still, I think he's rank 4 in the game right now. When I look at Snake, and his move-set, I realize something. Snake really can't do anything. Snake relies on his opponent's either, A) Doing something punishable and getting punished. B) Not anticipating Dash Attack which is his only (unsafe) reliable approach. C) Hitting a grenade, or fearing it unnecessarily. and D) Letting Snake reach safe solid ground. I could write essays about Snake, but I think you get the point. For more information, check out the Snake boards.
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First, what is an MU? Snake is someone to be scared of. Snake is the punisher. His moves hurt, and for the most part they're fast. So playing a heavy one learns to punish better than others. Snake doesn't have to approach, he has so much range. Snake's trick is to make the entire field his without having to be there. Between nades, Down B, and Down Smash, he can do it. In a way, the perfect Snake player would have to get near his opponent. He would just place his explosives all over. If a Snake is played right, he would never leave ground.

I'll place the next tier later. 1 at a time. My order is! MK, IC, Snake, Diddy. I think Snake is a better character than Diddy, but his trick is just that much harder to pull. MK might be top, but IC might pass him soon. So we'll see.

 

[orange/xd]

Well, the reason I proposed that Link's recover is better is that he has the ability to defend himself much better, not to mention versatility. Tactics such as covering the ledge with a rang help a ton, not to mention that if you ZAC MC after your DI, there's a good chance the bomb you're holding will boost you. Also, with Link DI'ing high to survive, it puts him at a good position to come back to the stage while defending himself. Ganon really doesn't have any of these options. Again, just barely scratching the surface, but you know what I mean. Recovery is more than just UpB vertical distance.

Link's ledge snapping is a little strange, but it's not as bad as most think it is. In fact, a properly spaced recovery by a Link can snap to the ledge from surprisingly far distances. o_O

Haha, and trust me, the Link boards' joke that I have Hover Boots wasn't given from a lack of recovery prowess. ;3

Yeah. Legan and etc. He gets a lot of attention from being flashy, and really, he's good, but there are a couple better onstage Links than even him. I'd vouch for Deva and KirinBlaze. Legan is a bit overly offensive and gets himself needlessly punished.


Edit: Fyi, I did read the whole post, but frankly, I don't care. I still want to assert my opinion. Thanks for assuming that I'm ignorant though, I appreciate it.

I didn't assume you're ignorant, in fact, I share your viewpoint.

 

[Blubba_Pinecone]

I didn't assume you're ignorant, in fact, I share your viewpoint.

Was directed at the post before yours. :3 Curse the fact that it takes time to type words; makes misunderstandings happen and such.

 

[Legan]

Well, the reason I proposed that Link's recover is better is that he has the ability to defend himself much better, not to mention versatility. Tactics such as covering the ledge with a rang help a ton, not to mention that if you ZAC MC after your DI, there's a good chance the bomb you're holding will boost you. Also, with Link DI'ing high to survive, it puts him at a good position to come back to the stage while defending himself. Ganon really doesn't have any of these options. Again, just barely scratching the surface, but you know what I mean. Recovery is more than just UpB vertical distance.

Link's ledge snapping is a little strange, but it's not as bad as most think it is. In fact, a properly spaced recovery by a Link can snap to the ledge from surprisingly far distances. o_O

Haha, and trust me, the Link boards' joke that I have Hover Boots wasn't given from a lack of recovery prowess. ;3

Yeah. Legan and etc. He gets a lot of attention from being flashy, and really, he's good, but there are a couple better onstage Links than even him. I'd vouch for Deva and KirinBlaze. Legan is a bit overly offensive and gets himself needlessly punished.


Edit: Fyi, I did read the whole post, but frankly, I don't care. I still want to assert my opinion. Thanks for assuming that I'm ignorant though, I appreciate it.

Your right, Im only flashy, Me placing higher than both of them really doesnt mean much.
You're now forbidden from watching my videos now that you're making assumptions based off of them.

Watch a tournament match of me and then try to make an analysis.

PS: I do agree with everything else you just said though, even though, most characters with good aerials just hit through links boomerang or just time it and attack you after the hitbox is gone keep links recovery at **** tier.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Your right, Im only flashy, Me placing higher than both of them really doesnt mean much.
You're now forbidden from watching my videos now that you're making assumptions based off of them.

Watch a tournament match of me and then try to make an analysis.

Blubba, I'd just ignore him. He tends to get mad when people call him "not so good".

 

[Legan]

Blubba, I'd just ignore him. He tends to get mad when people call him "not so good".

wait...what? Who are you?

 

[ShadowLink84]

Blubba, I'd just ignore him. He tends to get mad when people call him "not so good".

I would be upset too if someone said the same to me in spite of everything.
eriously people, the critique isnt really necessary at times.

 

[Blubba_Pinecone]

Your right, Im only flashy, Me placing higher than both of them really doesnt mean much.
You're now forbidden from watching my videos now that you're making assumptions based off of them.

Watch a tournament match of me and then try to make an analysis.

PS: I do agree with everything else you just said though, even though, most characters with good aerials just hit through links boomerang or just time it and attack you after the hitbox is gone keep links recovery at **** tier.

Take a chill pill Legs. I'm gonna put this bluntly, since a lot of the Links have been discussing this lately. Your ego is really one of the main reasons you arn't getting the respect that you want. Of course, you're reply to this will be "You all need to respect me more," or, now that I've stated that, it'll be "You're just jealous," or, after that, I'm not sure. But either way, you get the point, or at least I hope you do.

I didn't say anything about your placings, did I? You place great, that obvious, we all know that. Jeez.

And on noes, I just opened a youtube page with your Link, I'm gonna die!




For this rare instance, honestly, I'm agreeing 100% with Kalm. xD So like I said, chill dude. No one says you arn't good, but we do say you're human, because you are. Get over it. o-O


Edit: At any rate, we should all just shaddup here, since this is rather off topic. o_o

 

[Legan]

Take a chill pill Legs. I'm gonna put this bluntly, since a lot of the Links have been discussing this lately. Your ego is really one of the main reasons you arn't getting the respect that you want. Of course, you're reply to this will be "You all need to respect me more," or, now that I've stated that, it'll be "You're just jealous," or, after that, I'm not sure. But either way, you get the point, or at least I hope you do.

I didn't say anything about your placings, did I? You place great, that obvious, we all know that. Jeez.

And on noes, I just opened a youtube page with your Link, I'm gonna die!




For this rare instance, honestly, I'm agreeing 100% with Kalm. xD So like I said, chill dude. No one says you arn't good, but we do say you're human, because you are. Get over it. o-O

What I dont understand is how everyone and their mom can be so critical and focused on what Im doing when not producing anything themselves. Its always a comparison of me to the wat. 2 or 3 other link mainers, All im saying is just focus on your own game instead of worrying about how good you THINK i am or how i do compared to some other link based off some youtube vids.

You dont understand because you dont have to put up with the bs, Say you go to a tournament and kick ***, take names, and you truly earned the respect of the community, But then theres always those random people that dont attend tournaments that want to critique you based off some random videos or just discredit you based off of nothing.

I dont get mad at this of course not, Im just trying to understand what the point of doing it is.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I played legan for like an hour and got my *** whooped most of the time and he was nothing but humble. Nice guy, not really an ego at all.

Cry more IMO.

 

[Teh Future]

wait...what? Who are you?

wtf how do you not know who Ray Kalm is? He posts on the ganon boards at LEAST 7 times per day.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

wtf how do you not know who Ray Kalm is? He posts on the ganon boards at LEAST 7 times per day.

If you didn't get it already, Legan was being sarcastic.

 

[Wolfric]

Zelda F Tier material...lmao

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

where's ike and bowers descriptions, people you need to think of the children why wont anyone think about the children.

Also i think pierce abandoned this thread since he never did add those two

 

[Tyr_03]

Most of the people who "critique" players really suck. The vast majority of smashboards really sucks. Most of the people on here don't even attend tournaments lol.

The only opinions on which players are better than others that matter come from a very select few professional players.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

At least not on a regular basis, <.<

Some people can learn the game from the inside-out without touching the controller. Simply spectate tons and tons of matches.

 

[Tyr_03]

Watching is not even close to the same thing as playing. I know we all want to be happy swf members and think that this place isn't full of complete scrubs who have no clue what they're talking about but that's just how it is.

People really need to just realize that they're scrubs and not think their opinions are valid just because they watch a lot of vids.

Everyone is a scrub at one point in their life. Even M2K. Just accept it, work on not being a scrub and try not to voice ******** opinions that will piss people off.

 

[Teh Future]

roflcoptersssss

 

[InfiniteBlaze]

Diddy is not the best character.

 

[FatJackieChan]

Wario should be top 4! Snake should be lower, and MK should be 4 right there. Marth at 5

 

[InfiniteBlaze]

and IC's shouldn't be above snake. Snake should be like 3rd.

 

[_Phloat_]

Well, it appears the thread isn't coming sooooooooooooooooo.....


Anyone else feel Diddy is the best in the game? I sometimes feel like he is, his ground game is insane with infinite priority bananas, and if the opponent takes to the air, he is mobile enough to punish their landing with great timing and a banana, and his punishments HURT.

On the other hand, his recovery isn't the best, and neither is his killing power... But I feel that he, like Pierce said, doesn't have to commit to an approach, and a hard to punish killing game that can be used OOS, and is initiated on reaction ("did they trip? Don't smash if they didn't, if they did you should hit with proper timing"... Before this even, "Is my glidetoss able to punish this move on shield/powershield?"). This makes his "killing problems" seem less severe to me than they are made out to be.... But, I feel the same about MK's killing power, his SL OOS is insane and his smashes are safe, assuming you use them correctly....

I'm not really sure, but its a debate I'm really interested in... thoughts?


He just seems so dangerous OOS, while it is hard to keep him FROM sheilding, grabs only go so far against that and with good spacing he shouldn't be getting grabbed often, and each whiffed grab means a naner to the face and followups... However, good spacing and stage/aerial control will push him to the edge, where his options are limited....

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Anyone else feel Diddy is the best in the game? I sometimes feel like he is, his ground game is insane with infinite priority bananas, and if the opponent takes to the air, he is mobile enough to punish their landing with great timing and a banana, and his punishments HURT.

On the other hand, his recovery isn't the best, and neither is his killing power... But I feel that he, like Pierce said, doesn't have to commit to an approach, and a hard to punish killing game that can be used OOS, and is initiated on reaction ("did they trip? Don't smash if they didn't, if they did you should hit with proper timing"... Before this even, "Is my glidetoss able to punish this move on shield/powershield?"). This makes his "killing problems" seem less severe to me than they are made out to be.... But, I feel the same about MK's killing power, his SL OOS is insane and his smashes are safe, assuming you use them correctly....

I'm not really sure, but its a debate I'm really interested in... thoughts?

I really do not see diddy being above MK at all. He relys upon his bananas to really excel, but without he becomes like an A or B tier character. That is the situation whenever Diddy is not able to get a banana out onto the stage or it is being used against him.

 

[_Phloat_]

Well, I don't see a good Diddy not being able to get a banana onstage, especially for an extended period of time... The time spent without the banana, assuming the opponent wishes to continue it, is a period of aggression on the opponent's part, and this IS brawl... Getting the opponent away isn't always easy, but definitely not impossible.

I envision a great diddy as a very, very campy character. His shield is just so good when he has a banana... If he has to approach through the timer and not having the lead, I feel like he can slowly push them away with a great shield, much like recent talk of DeDeDe vs Snake, but his OOS option has infinite priority, can be used as he retreats OR approaches, and is fast.

If he has to approach because the opposing character has a superior projectile, I feel that he always has a "safe range" where this projectile can be shielded, melee attacks are risky, but his insane glidetoss applys great pressure.

I agree with the factor of the bananas being used against Diddy, that is a large factor... Which comes down to matchups and player skill. It has been said before, he is a character of momentum, and I feel that a good Diddy will prevent this situation as often as he can.... But it is a big con.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Well, I don't see a good Diddy not being able to get a banana onstage, especially for an extended period of time... The time spent without the banana, assuming the opponent wishes to continue it, is a period of aggression on the opponent's part, and this IS brawl... Getting the opponent away isn't always easy, but definitely not impossible.

Peels on stage is not very diffcult no, it's just doing it in a way that you will not get punished for it. There are a number of ways to get them onstage if you are being chased down, but most are at a risk of losing the peel when it comes out, or being hit away from them.

I envision a great diddy as a very, very campy character. His shield is just so good when he has a banana... If he has to approach through the timer and not having the lead, I feel like he can slowly push them away with a great shield, much like recent talk of DeDeDe vs Snake, but his OOS option has infinite priority, can be used as he retreats OR approaches, and is fast.

If he has to approach because the opposing character has a superior projectile, I feel that he always has a "safe range" where this projectile can be shielded, melee attacks are risky, but his insane glidetoss applys great pressure.

Both of those go back to again, needing to get a peel on the stage in and in his possession. So since Diddy cannot be at full potiental all game lik MK can be, then he suffers. Just like falco does in killing or recovery. ICs when they loss a member. Or Snake in the air and not on the stage. MK is a threat the whole time he is moving. Even out of knockback his aerials come out so quick that he can hit you with one of them if knockback is low enough. And if you get hit by Dair that hits you offstage you just lost all your momentum against MK. So for the most part I am agruing that MK's weakness are pretty irrelevent for most of the match. The only ones he as are killing (which can be made up for in gimps) and weight (countered by a great recovery and insane spacing/prioirty in his attacks).

I agree with the factor of the bananas being used against Diddy, that is a large factor... Which comes down to matchups and player skill. It has been said before, he is a character of momentum, and I feel that a good Diddy will prevent this situation as often as he can.... But it is a big con.

Just another factor to his downside.

 

[_Phloat_]

So, you are saying that while DDK's momentum is a powerful force, it can be swung against him for a much greater result than against MK? In other words, getting DDK to a disadvantaged position is much more punishing and long lasting than the same situation against MK, who presumably is able to make it out of most if not all situations, assuming correct play...

That is what I am getting, and it is also how I feel. I feel like DDK has all the right things, but MK has a much easier time using his traits, and they are almost, if not as good, as DDKs....

Initially, I felt that DDK's killing game, while requiring much more damage than most, was great for its safety and consistency... Upon further thinking, I really am not so sure about this. While the OOS stuff is great, a properly executed counter will knock DDK off his feet, which he has much more trouble with than MK. Mk's ability to dashgrab the opponent into an awkward position makes kill setups scary, but relativly safe because a smart MK won't dashgrab into anything severly punishing, barring some fast powerful moves that aren't avoidable on reaction (Snake's u-tilt)


Good points Xeylode. I am not exactly sure where I stand on the issue, and I wanted to spark a debate rather than argue this much further alone. I felt that stating MK was better than DDK wouldn't exactly say anything new, so I took what I knew... I haven't play vBrawl in quite some time, but it still interests me and I would love for some people to jump on this discussion.

Basically... DDK is better than MK when he is doing well, but when he isn't he does MUCH worse, to a point that his advantages in momentum are lost in his disadvantages to the same force.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I felt that stating MK was better than DDK wouldn't exactly say anything new, so I took what I knew...

Basically... DDK is better than MK when he is doing well, but when he isn't he does MUCH worse, to a point that his advantages in momentum are lost in his disadvantages to the same force.

Now we are talking about the Match-up xD I am not really sure of all the mechanics of how that Match-up is played. But simply looking at a tier list (which means I am looking at the characters pros and cons as a whole) Meta Knight just has fewer weaknesses in his playstyle that few characters can capitalize upon. Diddy has more glaring weaknesses which more characters can capitlize upon. So everything I stated before was proving Meta Knight just does better against the cast as a whole compared to diddy (which means MK should be placed higher on the tier list).

Now I am interested in learning what Diddy does exactly to MK in there match-up *goes to watch vids*

 

[_Phloat_]

I mean in general... DDK does better when he is doing better.

Against higher tiers than can escape MK's blind strings, given. I think these matchups matter a LOT more, and DDK has some great stuff against them when he is on the offensive. A MK punishing a good wario is getting a hit off, maybe a u-air string or small combo/followup...

DDK, on the other hand, can naner lock him on the ground, grab him in his final trip animation hanging over the ledge, and Grab Release to Dair him. This is all inescapable if done correctly.

Conversely... A MK getting hit by a Wario, with proper DI, will not be placed in as bad a position as DDK most of the time. MK has few situations that he doesn't have a tool to escape unscathed, and there are even fewer ways to actually force him into this positions.

That is what I meant, not specifically in the DDK vs MK matchup, although that element is present.

 

[LoganW]

diddy is not #1....