_Phloat_
Smash Champion
Glad you could aid so much in this discussion, any more facts you would like to bless this debate with? Please, don't back them up either, that is a waste of reading because we are all aware of your constant correctness.
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Predictions for Tier List v4 (Includes overview of entire cast)
- Thread starter Pierce7d
- Start date
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
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Well, yeah. Diddy has a vastly superior ground game than Meta Knight has. IN that respect, I can see it being argued that Diddy Kong has the best ground game of any one character in brawl.
I thought you were looking at diddy kong as a whole (net of pros and cons) not a single aspect.
I thought you were looking at diddy kong as a whole (net of pros and cons) not a single aspect.
GunmasterLombardi
Smash Champion
_Phloat_
Smash Champion
I was... trying to. I know a decent amount about the character, but really I was using it to try and spark some debate between more knowledgeable players. When I play against Diddy, I feel like his ground game is good enough to keep him safe when I take the air, which is all he needs because I am eventually coming down, and he can use this opportunity to push his ground game at me.
Is it enough to make him the best?... is what I am asking.
Either way, thank you for the serious debate and responses, which is more than can be said for logan and....
This idiot. Honestly, if you think my opinion (reported opinion in this debate, I am actually undecided) is wrong, then try and refute it. I can see by the high picture:word ratio in your post that this may be difficult, and you aren't alone, but I would suggest that you simply don't waste space in this thread that others will have to sift through with worthless one liners that fall upon popular opinion and aren't backed up at all.says hi.
Honestly people...?
In other words, post with some substance. If it was a debate over other issues, you think "X says hi" would be worth anything?
Of course Pierce abandoned the thread, he has to sift through this type of atrocity, where he envisioned debate.
Please, don't even argue this issue with me personally. Either
1) debate MY issue that I presented
2) start your own
3) don't post.
you've already contradicted yourself. If you can point out big problems like this than he obviously isn't viable to be #1 however being #2 is debatable. MK is a better character although it could be said that diddy has the best ground game. I just can't see diddy passing him on the tier list. Sorry for the other response but please, just because I put a one-liner doesn't mean I'm not for a debate.
CRASHiC
Smash Hero
Logan, if what you said was true, than in Blazblue, V-13 would be 1, because she is straight forwardly the best charecter. HOWEVER, because of set up potential, Rachel is consider the best charecter.
The best character in the game is not one with no glaring weakness all of the time. Shiek has no glaring weakness, Fox does with his piss poor recovery. However, Fox has the ability to over come that weakness, THUS is the best charecter in the game Logan.
The best character in the game is not one with no glaring weakness all of the time. Shiek has no glaring weakness, Fox does with his piss poor recovery. However, Fox has the ability to over come that weakness, THUS is the best charecter in the game Logan.
_Phloat_
Smash Champion
I haven't contradicted anything. I said he has a weakness... which I never said the opposite of. You can be #1 and still have weaknesses. MK has bad airspeed and a fairly bad grab release, is light, has decent momentum canceling but nothing amazing like GaW, and cannot use his sword to clash with projectiles... (although I believe this trait, transcendal priority, really catapults MK into another league... it is still a weakness in this regard)
And before someone says "LUL, YOU JUST SAID MK IS NUMBER 1!!!".. It was an example directed at Logan. I feel like I have to insure myself against stupidity sometimes, ugh.
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
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To push the ground game to ever make up for the other faults would need to see a pretty large push. The potiential is probably there, but for now, it just does not seem to be there yet.
Even an apology. Forgive and forget.
4nace
Smash Ace
Sonic is better at using bananas than Diddy lol.
Amazing glide toss.
Better dash speed
Amazing dash attack that is tough to punish. Comes out quick and can pick up bananas at any point.
Can pick up and drop with Z while spin dashing.
Bananas combo into his main kill move - Forward smash.
So yea, if Diddy's bananas couldn't be picked up, then that match-up wouldn't even be close, but the fact that they can be picked up drastically changes any diddy match-up if the opponent knows it well.
Amazing glide toss.
Better dash speed
Amazing dash attack that is tough to punish. Comes out quick and can pick up bananas at any point.
Can pick up and drop with Z while spin dashing.
Bananas combo into his main kill move - Forward smash.
So yea, if Diddy's bananas couldn't be picked up, then that match-up wouldn't even be close, but the fact that they can be picked up drastically changes any diddy match-up if the opponent knows it well.
this is what I tried to say lol
_Phloat_
Smash Champion
But, I feel that this also aids some of his other weaknesses. The fact that he never has to leave the ground, but other characters must eventually touch the ground (excluding ISJR... but that puts people in a very predictable pattern) means his weak(er than other #1 contenders) air game is not something that can be consistently and constantly exploited like he can with a grounded character, or an aerial character upon their landing.
If someone were to learn the Single Naner Lock (yea, diddy has an inescapable naner lock with only one naner now..) with relative consistency, would this heavy punishment be enough of a "push"?
We can only wait and see on that, I theorize that this strategy on top of an already great Diddy Kong could really make a huge impact on this game...
Aye, I didn't mean to target him, but after a decent hiatus from smashboards debate, using my free time and seeing that kinda sucked, and I didn't feel like making an ambiguous post addressing everyone that does it, because most people that do those posts probably don't read back to them... So yea, I understand, I've done it too, no use arguing
EDITED TO ADD: Interesting 4nace... Well, how does Diddy fair against sonic without bananas? I know that not using them at all would be rather foolish, but I could see it happening when Diddy reaches kill range. I ask because I know very little about sonic.
do you think diddy is better than mk?
Fox's recovery is better distance wise than sheiks though fox's is more gimpable in most situations. One of her glaring weaknesses is that she has a bad shffl game
EDIT: no problem phloat
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
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Why even bring up a melee term in a brawl discussion? I have a feeling I know what you mean, but still.
well in that case, i agree with you.
There's no l in shffl when it comes to brawl
In addition to the banana flaw, mk still has the best recovery, transcended priority in nearly every attack, he can gimp. Maybe if diddy constantly owned his naners, he could top MK.
4nace
Smash Ace
@_Phloat_
Nah, I still don't think using Bananas would hinder Diddy simply because a good Diddy Kong will control the bananas well and not really give Sonic a chance to control the field. However, that being said, if a Diddy is unaware of the Sonic match-up then Sonic can quickly **** him by using his nanners against him.
And yea, it's an interesting thought not to use bananas at all against Sonic, but I think that if done wisely then nanners will still put Diddy at more of an advantage.
Nah, I still don't think using Bananas would hinder Diddy simply because a good Diddy Kong will control the bananas well and not really give Sonic a chance to control the field. However, that being said, if a Diddy is unaware of the Sonic match-up then Sonic can quickly **** him by using his nanners against him.
And yea, it's an interesting thought not to use bananas at all against Sonic, but I think that if done wisely then nanners will still put Diddy at more of an advantage.
demonictoonlink
Smash Master
^
Honestly, why does anyone respond to this guy? He is just some pathetic, annoying melee troll.
Honestly, why does anyone respond to this guy? He is just some pathetic, annoying melee troll.
Really? I joined in on the discussion and I contributed more than you. Crashic brought up melee as you can see from my quote and I responded once. If anyone is detrimental to this thread than it is you.
_Phloat_
Smash Champion
I'd respond to Hitler if he made a proper point, or a point that needs to be refuted...
Ad Hominem attacks are no better than trolling IMO.
Ad Hominem attacks are no better than trolling IMO.
I'm not hitler lol
I'm with 4nace on this one. It all comes down to whether or not the diddy can control the bananas. Sonic can really give him some trouble if he manages to get control though.
that's true. Sonic has some great followups w/ bananas
GunmasterLombardi
Smash Champion
has no disadvantaged matchups. Diddy loses to ppl like Peach. MK will always be the best character in the game. Why do I have to explain myseIf?
CRASHiC
Smash Hero
There is no way Shiek's recovery is worse than Fox. Once Fox is off stage against Jigglypuff or nearly anyone, he's dead. Side b is punishable. Up b is laughably punishable. Then there is his fast fall, where he fast falls crazy fast. The same floaty artibute that slightly hurts Sheik's shffl game helps her recovery.do you think diddy is better than mk?
Fox's recovery is better distance wise than sheiks though fox's is more gimpable in most situations. One of her glaring weaknesses is that she has a bad shffl game
EDIT: no problem phloat
However, despite the fact that Jiggs ***** Fox off stage, Fox is still considered a counter to Fox. Why? Because just hitting a fox alone is a *****. Fox can over come his greatest weakness.
Now, how does this apply to Diddy Kong? Does Diddy Kong have what it takes to keep great players from using his bananas against him? Yes, yes he does. He has a far worse time off stage than he does having his bananas against him. I seriously doubt you are going to use ADHD's bananas against him.
Is Diddy Kong the best right now, no. Do I think he could become it? Yes.
Having no disadvantage matchups doesn't mean anything.
Blazblue tier list
1. Rachel
2. V-13
V-13 not only beats Rachel, but has no bad matchups.
However, Rachel has the tools to get around her bad matchup in the right hands. Matchups are not set in stone, especially in a game where a stage dramatically changes the matchup.
CRASHiC
Smash Hero
But the basics of fighting games exist here AND stages completely change matchups in Smash. In other fighting games, except maybe DBZ games (lol), stages don't change anything. Here, we have natural tool to help aid in poor matchups.
saviorslegacy
My avater is not a Sheik avatar.
Score one for the winner.
Nefarious B
Smash Champion
Anyone who wants to figure out how to beat Diddy needs to watch a vid of ADHD playing, and see how -he- reacts to the opponent getting the nanners. You'll notice that he rarely if ever gets hit by them because he's so good with the physics and catching them out of the air. If more people learned to be like that IMO, Diddys wouldn't get any easy wins.
I also think ZSS has a better nanner game than Diddy.
I also think ZSS has a better nanner game than Diddy.
Kinzer
Mammy
Is there any character in this game that doesn't have a better naner game than Diddy Kong himself?
Also, about the BB tire-list:
If Rachel can get around the things that make a bad MU, why is it a disadvantage in the first place?
Also, about the BB tire-list:
If Rachel can get around the things that make a bad MU, why is it a disadvantage in the first place?
I just wanna point out a few slight things: Wario actually beats Luigi (It's too easy to camp him IMO, his airspeed holds him back too much. That and his difficulty approaching on the ground, especially dashing in and shielding, much harder for Luigi to do so and try to punish because of his bad traction). That, and for the most part Wario has one of the hardest to gimp recoveries out there.
I like your list Pierce, my top 5 looks a bit different though:
MK
Snake
Diddy
Falco
Wario
Diddy is very good, but he's honestly not the best character in the game. He has clear, identifiable bad matchups and bad stages. Even if MK went 45:55 against both Snake and Diddy, he would still be ahead of them character wise as his overall matchup spread/stage versatility is better than both of theirs. Even in a more conservative region MK is a safer pick than Diddy or Snake.
As for IC's, I think they are good, but not top 5 material. They have so many stage/character matchups that are just ********. If you think Snake vs Wario on Brinstar is ********, you should see IC's vs MK on Brinstar or Wario vs IC's on Rainbow Cruise (I'm sure you would agree that both of those already don't sound very pleasant for the IC's). Even on neutrals you have characters like Diddy, Falco, Snake, and MK fighting for supremacy against them. Their only shot at making top 5 would be if every region adopted an extremely conservative list, and even then I think they would fall short.
That's all I have for now.
I like your list Pierce, my top 5 looks a bit different though:
MK
Snake
Diddy
Falco
Wario
Diddy is very good, but he's honestly not the best character in the game. He has clear, identifiable bad matchups and bad stages. Even if MK went 45:55 against both Snake and Diddy, he would still be ahead of them character wise as his overall matchup spread/stage versatility is better than both of theirs. Even in a more conservative region MK is a safer pick than Diddy or Snake.
As for IC's, I think they are good, but not top 5 material. They have so many stage/character matchups that are just ********. If you think Snake vs Wario on Brinstar is ********, you should see IC's vs MK on Brinstar or Wario vs IC's on Rainbow Cruise (I'm sure you would agree that both of those already don't sound very pleasant for the IC's). Even on neutrals you have characters like Diddy, Falco, Snake, and MK fighting for supremacy against them. Their only shot at making top 5 would be if every region adopted an extremely conservative list, and even then I think they would fall short.
That's all I have for now.
Dido
Smash Journeyman
Can at least captian falcon go to the D teir? He has attack and speed. What else do you need. (I know more stuff)
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
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You need a decent way to actually hit someone.
Captain Falcon is a character that really has not changed all that much from Melee. THe problem is that without a lot of hitstun like melee had, it is hard for CF to connect with a lot of hits after a single attack. Worse is that with the overall speed of the game being slower, CF's attacks come out slower as well and with less priority. More often than not CF will be hit out of attacks (pretty much snake's jab shuts down all of CFs ground approaches o.o) before he can get them out. The only good thing about CF is probably a decent recovery (should not really die chasing you offstage very far), modest weight, and a couple of moves in his arsenal that make him respectable (Jab, Uair, etc.).
No idea if any of this fits into "you know more stuff" or if you were just asking a retroical question.
Actually, his kill moves and smashes have gotten alot weaker, the gentleman has been removed for the most part, the knee is virtually unusable now due to its horrid sweetspot, being unable to be reversed, is slower, has no priority, and only has a teeny tiny sweetspot in 1 frame to boot... as well as giving them waaay too much time to SDI and DI the move like crazy. The Dair has been changed with that sideways hitbox, although it may be for better or worse. Also, SideB doesn't go through projectiles anymore.
Tin Man
Smash Hero
notice how the major changes are on the top tier (refereeing to the OP)
Brawl is so unbalanced, in order to evaluate lower tiers among each other, you need low tier tourneys >.>
Brawl is so unbalanced, in order to evaluate lower tiers among each other, you need low tier tourneys >.>
smashkng
Smash Lord
Knee's major nerf is being far harder to sweetspot (no reverse knockback knee which is replaced with the extremely weak sourspot and electric lasting only about 1 frame) and having slower start-up. The hitlag doesn't matter much (because it's not a multi hit move) and the knee sweetspot though a bit weaker is still powerful.
Justblaze647
Smash Lord
Nanaki
Smash Lord
He's referring to the 'freeze' effect of hitlag (similar to Zelda's lightning kicks) specific to a few electrical-based moves which gives an enormous amount of time for DI+SDI input, making their killpower siginificantly decreased if your opponent doesn't have the slowest DI input on the planet.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Um, electricity isn't the reason, all attacks have an unusually high amount of hitlag.
if you use Sonci's Fair in Brawl+ the hits come in ridiculously fast while when performed in regular brawl, you can count the hits.
The hitlag is specifically tailored for the knee and lightning kick to have a "you just got kicked in the face" effect.
Its the same when you tipper Marth's killing moves or land a Giant punch or Charge beam.
not specifically due to an electrical effect.