PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Little England]

Yeah that maight be true.
What set are you talking about btw, would like to see it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xp9lCwJIFjc&feature=relmfu

 

[knightpraetor]

yeah, I am personally fine with coaching in between matches or in matches...I always felt it was impossible to fully implement stuff you were being coached with while playing unless it was really simple advice that everyone probably knows anyway.

i'm really curious what this super advice was that made so much of a difference.

While yelling and screaming influence matches than coaching, I think that it's up to the player to bring earplugs, which I highly recommend if you attend NC tournaments.

I've always thought my focus was pretty good till I had to try to drown out a million voices (the rough equivalent of a room full of NC players). Honestly I wish it were in a foreign language that I couldn't understand; then I wouldn't process what they were saying.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

lol KP, you're too kind

NC is kinda ruthless though. I tend to wish i had music any time i play against someone from raleigh. by the end of the set i'm either beyond mad, or extremely relieved. It's just part of the scene.

 

[FoxLisk]

I don't exactly want to get into this here, but isn't the point of tournament to test just those players?

if we agree to ban coaching, then yes. if we agree not to, then the point is to test those players' ability to play while being coached. It's a different skill but not a clearly inferior or meaningless one.

 

[I am Seth]

nc be dat heat.

and the black dude from workaholics is ****ing hilarious.

"FROM THE TOP ROPE *****ES!"

 

[HugS™]

I don't exactly want to get into this here, but isn't the point of tournament to test just those players? For example, when it's not Mango + Peepee vs Armada, it's Mango vs Armada. Sure, they're both still playing, regardless of who is coaching them, but the point is to see if your mind, and your mind alone, is able to deal with everything that tournament throws at you, and overcome it.

The issue I have is mainly coaching during matches. Coaching in between sets or matches is fine (in my opinion) because this is the time for reflecting on what you observed, and reforming/redoing your strategies. Support from a coach/friend in this instance doesn't seem to have any visible issues.

If that's what you really wanted, you'd be fighting against crowd cheering too. It's rarely ever just 2 minds against each other when you're dealing with big players. A good player will overcome what he needs to overcome.

I coached Lucky against Armada too, didn't work out for him there.

Also, if you all heard what I have said when coaching Lucky and Mango in their matches, you'd all realize you're fighting against nothing more than solid pep talk. I literally just talk to keep them focused and positive. Do you know how distracting it'd be if I actually said things like "back air here, no no, jump cancel your grab now, WAIT, fast fall, bait his dsmash, then double jump to drill shine usmash!"

 

[Prince_Abu]

why do people whine about coaching just be good enough to beat people no matter what people r telling them to do

 

[Wake]

People just hate back seat smashers....

But really, I don't get what the big deal is.

 

[ShroudedOne]

If that's what you really wanted, you'd be fighting against crowd cheering too. It's rarely ever just 2 minds against each other when you're dealing with big players. A good player will overcome what he needs to overcome.

I coached Lucky against Armada too, didn't work out for him there.

Also, if you all heard what I have said when coaching Lucky and Mango in their matches, you'd all realize you're fighting against nothing more than solid pep talk. I literally just talk to keep them focused and positive. Do you know how distracting it'd be if I actually said things like "back air here, no no, jump cancel your grab now, WAIT, fast fall, bait his dsmash, then double jump to drill shine usmash!"

I don't even have an issue with pep talks really. The only instance I have in mind where the coaching seemed odd to me was Hbox being coached by that Brawl player (I forget his name).

Let me just say, in most if not all cases, it doesn't really matter. The better player should win. It's more about the principle.

 

[Wenbobular]

Hbox being coached by a Brawl player was the best (most amusing?) thing about that set

 

[darkoblivion12]

I think coaching is more of a problem with lower level players. I played a set at RoM3 I think where wife came up and started coaching the guy I was playing against mid match. Something like that is not only distracting but disconcerting. Even if he wasn't getting really useful information, it still made me feel like I was playing against wife and not random scrub X.

 

[unknown522]

If that's what you really wanted, you'd be fighting against crowd cheering too. It's rarely ever just 2 minds against each other when you're dealing with big players. A good player will overcome what he needs to overcome.

I coached Lucky against Armada too, didn't work out for him there.

Also, if you all heard what I have said when coaching Lucky and Mango in their matches, you'd all realize you're fighting against nothing more than solid pep talk. I literally just talk to keep them focused and positive. Do you know how distracting it'd be if I actually said things like "back air here, no no, jump cancel your grab now, WAIT, fast fall, bait his dsmash, then double jump to drill shine usmash!"

that last paragraph is the funniest comment.

But yeah, I 100% understand.

I think coaching is fine as long as:

1. You don't take excessive amount of time between matches (APEX 2012 GFs.......)
2. You don't distract the other player

Some people may have seen me post this before, but in loser's at Pound 4, I missed some really easy edgeguards vs Hax cuz of Scar screaming into my ear 'GET 'EM HAX!!' (My body physically jumped whenever that happened) I then looked at him and then he moved over to hax's side thankfully.

I'm not mad about it or anything, but it was kinda gay to lose game 1 mostly because of that.


There's also some examples at locals, but this time it was the guy commentating being right up in my ear yelling ****. Then Raynex told him that he was being distracting after our game. He learned his lesson afterwards, and I know he didn't mean it, but that's just an example (also technically that's not coaching, but the same thing basically happened in those scenarios).

 

[_eternal]

I don't exactly want to get into this here, but isn't the point of tournament to test just those players? For example, when it's not Mango + Peepee vs Armada, it's Mango vs Armada. Sure, they're both still playing, regardless of who is coaching them, but the point is to see if your mind, and your mind alone, is able to deal with everything that tournament throws at you, and overcome it.

The issue I have is mainly coaching during matches. Coaching in between sets or matches is fine (in my opinion) because this is the time for reflecting on what you observed, and reforming/redoing your strategies. Support from a coach/friend in this instance doesn't seem to have any visible issues.

Yes, this. I don't think crowd cheering is comparable either. They're technically the same thing (external influences on the match), but intuitively I think it's obvious that there's a difference between background noise/hype and coaching. (Doesn't matter if it's pep talk or strategy because that can't be proven or enforced). Plus you can always wear headphones to block out cheering. I mean, I'd have to ask one of the traditional fighting game guys for a solid argument for why coaching should be banned, but I'd say that it has the potential to be a bigger external factor than crowd hype and whatnot, even if most players aren't abusing it yet. Not that I have any say in the decision, but 2 cents, etc.

I think coaching is more of a problem with lower level players. I played a set at RoM3 I think where wife came up and started coaching the guy I was playing against mid match. Something like that is not only distracting but disconcerting. Even if he wasn't getting really useful information, it still made me feel like I was playing against wife and not random scrub X.

Also this. Coaching might actually make a significant difference to low-level matches since pros can probably see things in 10 seconds that scrubs would miss. By this point you're just rewarding people who befriend as many pros as they can. Again, it's not the same kind of external influence as, say, someone's phone ringing.

 

[Dark Hart]

Lozr vs Mahone hype

 

[Wenbobular]

Mahone is going to tap
How can you beat the goofiest cute avatar

 

[Bl@ckChris]

l0zr already won.

we hyped it too much.

 

[Mahone]

lol... i would never lose to lozr now.

never.

ya, they were screaming in my ear and being super obnoxious, but tbh it didn't affect my play at all. It definitely made lozr play better, but whatever, he was just better than me then.

 

[leffen]

Could someone please critique any of my falco matches from a tourney last weekend ;D?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQyTidJJzs4&feature=channel&list=UL WF vs IVP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGX2fVYBGuk GF vs Fuzzyness

I haven't played falco 8months now so go easy on me :>

 

[unknown522]

Holy ****. The combos you were getting game 1.....

Damn

 

[Seartu]

Guys I have a DI question. I'm still only several months into this game and I'm really starting to see the fruits of many of the pieces I've been practicing.

My Luigi has provided me with a lot of fun times as of late but when I switch back to falco I have same pretty awful ASDI problems. I may just not even get it but to my knowledge/understanding it is my dair and shine usage that really screws me. If I get out prioritized/trade while attempting to use these moves I hate watching my little blue falco rocket sideways to his doom because I'm holding down on that analog stick.

With luigi this isn't as much of a problem, although I love my luigi d-smash I really just flick the c-stick and usually I am using it from a relatively safe position and along with his floatiness I just don't run into the same issue. Should I work on more sort of flicking motions with my falco moves so I don't get caught ASDI'ing down? Is my reaction time just not fast enough to save myself?

Thanks for the help!

 

[unknown522]

Use the control stick to DI

 

[odinNJ]

Use the boost to get through

 

[Bones0]

I don't like coaching because I think it takes too much skill from the game as far as adaption and on-the-fly innovation go. Top level players have to come up with answers to tactics on the spot, and that's one of my favorite part of competition. To know the player is just being tipped off about how to adapt kind of makes it less impressive. It basically removes a lot of the epic player vs. player mindgames that go on. I have a lot less incentive to come up with some crazy new trick if my opponent's coach is just going to give them a quick answer to it.

That's all subjective, so if I were to actually make this argument I'd rather just say it's unfair for players who don't have a coach. It is especially stupid for newer players. I gave someone advice in between matches at Apex and he ended up turning the set around and winning handily, and I'm probably a mediocre coach at best. It's just retardedly easy for spectators to process what's actually happening because they aren't responding in real time. I don't see how it's any different from someone using a modded controller that lets them turbo multishines perfectly or something. They are both advantages that are exclusive to one of the players. You can say "Oh, well everyone can ask someone to coach them," but everyone can also mod their controller. Idk **** about StarCraft, but I thought MLG started using sound-proof booths because the crowd going "OMG!" completely ruined surprise tactics. Seems like the same effect as coaching.

 

[Beat!]

Coaching sucks (as in it should be banned). Amsah has already viciously destroyed every single pro-coaching argument there is like 10 times. Stubborn people are all that remains.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I'm with hugs. "Coaching" is mostly just pep talking. If the crowd can yell and jeer a player (even during a match) then a friend should be allowed to sit with a player and give support between games.

 

[Warhawk]

Coaching sucks (as in it should be banned). Amsah has already viciously destroyed every single pro-coaching argument there is like 10 times. Stubborn people are all that remains.

I keep hearing about this and I kinda want to read his argument now. Can you please direct or link me to the thread he did this in?

 

[knightpraetor]

how many frames of stun is falco's laser again?

preferably i would like normal, and CC, and shield stun. I'm going go put it in my text file of useful data

bones help out..just pm me. or someone tell me what thread to search. but if you know that you could just answer. i swear i saw them talking about this earlier but didn't memorize the numbers

 

[Seartu]

Use the control stick to DI

Just to take this a step further. How would you advise I DI a dair-shine vs. a peach's d-smash. This is my most common matchup and my l-cancels are far from perfect. Quite often I miss an l-cancel and look for a shine, thus the analog stick is already down and I get totally messed up by a cc d-smash followed by terrible DI, do I have to rely on reaction time here, or is there a safer alternative?

I guess the easy answer is: hit your l-cancel idiot. But is there some way that people buffer their DI just in case? Maybe my mind just hasn't caught up to the intricacies of DI? I'm just not sure.

 

[unknown522]

how many frames of stun is falco's laser again?

preferably i would like normal, and CC, and shield stun. I'm going go put it in my text file of useful data

bones help out..just pm me. or someone tell me what thread to search. but if you know that you could just answer. i swear i saw them talking about this earlier but didn't memorize the numbers

I dunno about shield stun, but on hit it's at least +8 on hit after landing lag.

Seartu: you have to react, or do it preemptively. There's no other way.

You should probably c-stick your d-airs (not mandatory but yeah)

 

[_Xanatos_]

Just to take this a step further. How would you advise I DI a dair-shine vs. a peach's d-smash. This is my most common matchup and my l-cancels are far from perfect. Quite often I miss an l-cancel and look for a shine, thus the analog stick is already down and I get totally messed up by a cc d-smash followed by terrible DI, do I have to rely on reaction time here, or is there a safer alternative?

I guess the easy answer is: hit your l-cancel idiot. But is there some way that people buffer their DI just in case? Maybe my mind just hasn't caught up to the intricacies of DI? I'm just not sure.

If you miss your l-cancel, you might want to just prepare for DI, especially if you don't think you can get the shine off. On the other hand, a good alternative might be to light shield peach's dsmash. Your shield comes out fast, and it's a little safer than shining.

 

[Beat!]

I keep hearing about this and I kinda want to read his argument now. Can you please direct or link me to the thread he did this in?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=291203

^Most of it is in that thread.


There's also this thread, although coaching wasn't the actual topic in this case, so you'll have to search for the coaching posts: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=290671

 

[dkuo]

lol amsah went in on that argument

I think coaching is acceptable on the grounds that both players agree to it, but that applies to pretty much everything else

 

[_eternal]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=291203

^Most of it is in that thread.


There's also this thread, although coaching wasn't the actual topic in this case, so you'll have to search for the coaching posts: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=290671

Thanks for the link. Some of the strawmen he had to dismantle in the first thread are kind of lol.

 

[Mogwai]

Thanks for the link. Some of the strawmen he had to dismantle in the first thread are kind of lol.

look, I'm more or less impartial on the coaching debate, but it's really really hilarious to me that you're talking about Amsah dismantling stawmen when the first page I read was basically Amsah saying that coaching is equivalent to a 2nd player plugging in and 2v1ing. Sorry, no one went in deep in the thread from what I read, it was just a bunch of people arguing poorly.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Foxlisk convinced me tonight that the debate is stupid and there's NO way it can be anything more than opinion, and it's ridiculous to suggest otherwise. The best thing to do would be to explicitly state whether or not coaching is allowed in the rules, so that there won't be quite such a debate, but policing it seems like a silly, unnecessary burden for the TO. So it really doesn't matter, outside of philosophical debates about the purposes of tournaments (which is also subjective).

 

[Warhawk]

In an ideal world I think it shouldn't be allowed unless the other player has expressed that they are ok with it. The problem is being able to enforce a restriction on it...

 

[Mogwai]

In an ideal world I think it shouldn't be allowed unless the other player has expressed that they are ok with it. The problem is being able to enforce a restriction on it...

in your ideal world. this is very much a matter of opinion. professional sports all have rules that allow coaching, and they're all pretty arbitrary about what's acceptable for coaching because well, it's just arbitrary what's acceptable.

 

[KirbyKaze]

We should all just shoot more lasers.

 

[Mogwai]

We should all just shoot more lasers.

KK saying all the right things...




wait, you're just trying to get into my pants, aren't you?

 

[Warhawk]

in your ideal world. this is very much a matter of opinion. professional sports all have rules that allow coaching, and they're all pretty arbitrary about what's acceptable for coaching because well, it's just arbitrary what's acceptable.

No no, by "ideal world" I mean one where this could actually be easily enforced, I didn't mean my opinion was what's ideal. Also in many sports that allow coaching are sports where there's a team involved and so having a good coach is part of having a good team. Most sports that revolve around the competition between individuals as far as I'm aware do not, for the most part, have coaching during the events. Boxing mostly it is in between rounds and for smash I'd be ok with coaching in between matches, but during the match I just don't like. I know it's kind of arbitrary but when people travel all that distance with money on the line to play against one person I do think in the end they should be playing just that one person.