PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[KAOSTAR]

the fact that none of these lists have vman on them proves that you guys are horrible judges of skill.

VMan is amazing, I love his falco.

But I would place him on the top yoshi/m2 list instead.

 

[LumpyCPU...]

sup kfc and homemade waffles

two of my former "mentors".
the other two are sageosaka and pink shinobi.

you'd think i'd be good if i played with all those people. lolsuxx0rz

 

[KILLA.FOR.CASH.]

The worst part is I get this **** like seriously every day. I tell people how to win and they say I'm old and keep losing. lol

The only thing thats being evolved in melee, is reaction speed and tech skill.

Basically the high level play of today is pretty much mimicking the high level play of the old days, except it is much much faster now.

Strong foundation is what makes good players :3

probably the biggest example of this is drephen. He has minimal tech skill but he is a BEAST.

 

[V3ctorMan]

allritey.. got some of my Improving Falco videos up ^^ (well I hope it's improving)

^^ Hope everyone likes the set..

Falco dittos with Axe - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36W9Cd8rx5I

Comment critique.. ^^

 

[Shaeman111]

The only thing thats being evolved in melee, is reaction speed and tech skill.

Basically the high level play of today is pretty much mimicking the high level play of the old days, except it is much much faster now.

Let's get some evidence
because i strongly disagree.

 

[Deleted member]

allritey.. got some of my Improving Falco videos up ^^ (well I hope it's improving)

^^ Hope everyone likes the set..

Falco dittos with Axe - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36W9Cd8rx5I

Comment critique.. ^^

just looks like 2 brain-dead players mashing buttons at each other. that button mashing is extremely coordinated, but I see no attempt for either player to out-think the other. So much so that there is literally no adaptation from either side in the duration of the match. Both players approach the other poorly several times and get punished for it, only to retry those same approaches just moments later.

This would be fine if either of you were just making a bland attempt to tech the other to death, but generally the combos on both sides are overall poor and both of you miss several easy kills in favor for pressing more buttons. Despite an obvious proficiency at the game, some of the edge guards are just bad and it's disheartening to watch misses on them.

All that said, I'm sure the both of you still beat players on the merit that any ****** can pick falco and mash buttons and it'll work because falco's moves are broken and you can throw them out quickly. As soon as you can't out-tech your opponent you'll probably lose, but until then rock on I guess.

5/10.

 

[JPOBS]

Professor Oak who are you?

and this has nothing to do with your critique of vman, im just curious.

edit: nvm. umbreonmowwwwww

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

just looks like 2 brain-dead players mashing buttons at each other. that button mashing is extremely coordinated, but I see no attempt for either player to out-think the other. So much so that there is literally no adaptation from either side in the duration of the match. Both players approach the other poorly several times and get punished for it, only to retry those same approaches just moments later.

This would be fine if either of you were just making a bland attempt to tech the other to death, but generally the combos on both sides are overall poor and both of you miss several easy kills in favor for pressing more buttons. Despite an obvious proficiency at the game, some of the edge guards are just bad and it's disheartening to watch misses on them.

All that said, I'm sure the both of you still beat players on the merit that any ****** can pick falco and mash buttons and it'll work because falco's moves are broken and you can throw them out quickly. As soon as you can't out-tech your opponent you'll probably lose, but until then rock on I guess.

5/10.

lol. i wouldn't go as far to say as negative remarks outside of the match, that's kinda silly, considering they're attempting 'seriouslies' or whatever when they play..a decent amount together i'm pretty sure?

Do you play/know falco enough to know the difference between button mashing & precise quick *** techskill? Like falco dittos you can't really sit and outspace considering if one isn't lasering the other should and that leads to a pproach. it's a weird ditto but there's plenty of countering and ****. button mashing sounds a little harsh. also you seem to hate falco generally, or think he's quite OP, so this almost just sounds like a way of boasting your opinion on that.

 

[KILLA.FOR.CASH.]

Let's get some evidence
because i strongly disagree.

kdj fox vs pc chris falco just looks like a slower and less technical version of lucky vs zhu or lucky vs dr pee pee

todays metagame has just improved on the old metagame. nothing truly ground breaking has been introduced to the metagame for a long time.

can you think of something else that changed the metagame so vastly in such ways that ken's dashdancing & DA dave's sh laser did?

look at jman's fox and then watch some old mew2king 06 fox videos. they play exactly the same, but jman has more precision with it

allritey.. got some of my Improving Falco videos up ^^ (well I hope it's improving)

^^ Hope everyone likes the set..

Falco dittos with Axe - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36W9Cd8rx5I

Comment critique.. ^^

it looked like you guys were just playing semi-seriouslies, not seriouslies lol.
this might be because you guys are comfortable with playing each other alot, that comfort makes you guys do some akward decisions, but i dunno. it's obvious your falco's are hella good, but the sandbagging on both sides is very apparent.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I've been out hangin with dudes and stuff the last few days, but I'll have a big response to everything I've missed sometime tonight, and I'll be more available now to respond more quickly.

Also I'll make that critique thread like I was supposed to have already soon enough lol.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Clearly they were both(vman/axe) playing for entertainment purposes. Ive seen both of them play to win with falco and it doesnt look like that, altho both are still technical players nonetheless and still play at a fast pace.

just STFU and be entertained.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

i think the falco game has improved immensely, i don't think you're looking deep enough into what is considering improving the metagame, imo.

Basically the high level play of today is pretty much mimicking the high level play of the old days, except it is much much faster now.

just out of curiousity, what is considered to be mimicked? Just playstyles in general?

fox honestly hasn't had crazy groundbreaking change in anything besides speed and precise so it's hard to judge that, but fox is good enough as is given you are capable of doing everything right as him. but i do think double shines and shine grabs and stuff like that do change alot in the metagame, since people now need to watch out for those things, and learn counters, and goes on and on.

falco has an improved laser metagame, double shines, jcgrabshines, shine oos, waveshine oos, shield pressure, stuff like.

If the metagame hasn't changed or had anything ground breaking, are you implying that Pc chris, or any old school top player could make top 5 at a national? If things havent changed too much, it shouldn't be a problem for them to still place well. jus' sayin.

and kaostar, he did ask for a critique. implying that he's trying to improve upon the play, no point in sayng 'stfu' for him doing what vman asked.

 

[KAOSTAR]

u mad ?

 

[KILLA.FOR.CASH.]

i'm not underestimating falcos metagame at all.

in my head I was using Dr PeePee as the standard metagame falco.

If you compare Dr PP to other falcos like shiz, Dr PP has a much stronger foundation than a player like shiz. (and also dr peepee is more consistent and also wins nationals)

Does Dr.PP have amazing shield pressure? not better than mangos. Does Dr.PP do double shines and shine grabs? not that i've seen ( but i might be wrong here)

The main thing that stands out to me in Dr.PP's play, is that he is extremely patient and has well placed lasers. He knows when to attack and when to retreat. He sees the openings, (fast reaction), and he punishes very hard (good tech skill)

call me oldschool but i believe that a strong foundation is what makes a great player, not all that crazy stuff like waveshine oos, jc grabshines, stuff like that

is shine oos even a viable tactic vs good opponents? being shined oos can be so easily avoided if you just space your attacks on their shield well, so you don't get shined oos

 

[Bl@ckChris]

shine oos *****. pp prolly starts so many combos with shine oos its not even funny lol. even if it misses, he's usually free to jump out and waveland if he's under a platform.

if i understand correctly, i think he's trying to shinegrab more, especially in the jiggs matchup, but he just misses it a lot under pressure and ends up fullhopping LOL. he's pretty good at improvising though, so it just looks like he's putting good pressure on the jiggs with the fullhop or something haha.

i swear he didn't understand how to shorten the phantasm. last time we played i was just like "well...just spam b...and it'll shorten" he was like "wut? is that how it works?" what a funny kid.

THATS RIGHT KEVIN I PUT YOUR *** ON BLAST, IN YA OWN THREAD. HOW YOU GONNA ACT?

 

[KILLA.FOR.CASH.]

watch mango play. with every char, he carefully places attacks on their shield, away from shine oos range

maybe this is why mango's fox ***** drpp's falco? i want to type more but I have to do laundry, cus tonight im going back to socal =D *cops out*

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

u mad ?

lolwat

----

why use mango as an example? you can't have amazing shield pressure unless your doing it better than the best? plus i don't really get it since you said you were using PP a top falco as an example, but then you kinda counter yourself saying mango does it better. technically it's not about the player, it's about the possibilities of the character. are you implying that mango hasn't changed the metagame..?

i do agree about the foundation, but i dont think it's right to not include all these big techskill things into what's making the metagame today. it just, conditions players. Knowing that you could possibly get shined oos generally should increase your shield pressure spacing and what you can do to counter/avoid it. double shines made people realize they can't always try shine oos or grab oos or anything till after the second shine, which can be quite surprising.

joeplicate has been doing waveshines out of shield pretty consistently in tournament with fox apparently[i've watched a few games of it in action]. Regardless of his consistency, the fact that this can be done makes for shineblinding across stage[plus being grounded after a shineOOS can be quite effective regardless of if they're shine-blind'able.], and falco is now able to start a full 0-death combo from Waveshining out of shield. Before it was generally Shine OOS to aerial, which couldn't always combo. This isn't being applied too often just yet, but i'm sure it's just the difficulty of making it habit.

But these are more important in the spacie matchups forsure. But, they're top 2 so i'd say that's pretty important.

i guess i'm on the aspect that the more techskill knowledge you have just gives you a better oppurtunity to capatilize on things, and with that comes more counters to these effective things to slow down how good it can be.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

being a ganon main was probably easier before falco's got all cool and technical. being able to roll out of shield pressure would be nice...

 

[LumpyCPU...]

^^^^^ i think i smile at all of your posts.


and i see improvements in shield pressure, but i see what kfc is saying and i agree.

 

[JPOBS]

vpuff's metagame has changed drastically ( bair beats everything, duckalmost single handedly wins matchups,moveset->rest)

spacies have got more technical which opens up tons of possibility. and for the record, from what i remmeber, PC never did shine platform waveland combos so i'd say thats an example of how todays metagame > 06

 

[KILLA.FOR.CASH.]

why use mango as an example? you can't have amazing shield pressure unless your doing it better than the best? plus i don't really get it since you said you were using PP a top falco as an example, but then you kinda counter yourself saying mango does it better. technically it's not about the player, it's about the possibilities of the character. are you implying that mango hasn't changed the metagame..?

i do agree about the foundation, but i dont think it's right to not include all these big techskill things into what's making the metagame today. it just, conditions players. Knowing that you could possibly get shined oos generally should increase your shield pressure spacing and what you can do to counter/avoid it. double shines made people realize they can't always try shine oos or grab oos or anything till after the second shine, which can be quite surprising.

joeplicate has been doing waveshines out of shield pretty consistently in tournament with fox apparently[i've watched a few games of it in action]. Regardless of his consistency, the fact that this can be done makes for shineblinding across stage[plus being grounded after a shineOOS can be quite effective regardless of if they're shine-blind'able.], and falco is now able to start a full 0-death combo from Waveshining out of shield. Before it was generally Shine OOS to aerial, which couldn't always combo. This isn't being applied too often just yet, but i'm sure it's just the difficulty of making it habit.

But these are more important in the spacie matchups forsure. But, they're top 2 so i'd say that's pretty important.

i guess i'm on the aspect that the more techskill knowledge you have just gives you a better oppurtunity to capatilize on things, and with that comes more counters to these effective things to slow down how good it can be.

i definately see your point.

I dunno why I threw mango's name in there, it's just common for people to use his name when talking about the metagame i guess.

What you said about being aware of shine oos, and knowing what you can and can't do; i couldn't agree more with you!

I feel like if the metagame evolved to the point where nobody gets hit by shine oos anymore (proper spacing on shields), then a strong foundation is all that would be left as viable play.

Hmm. You know, when I really think about it,awareness of oos options DOES change the way the foundation of melee is played.

for some reason when i think metagame, i only think of falco+fox.

@ Jpobs: zhu has been doing that since like, he started playing lol. and i think he stole it from forward, who is very oldschool

 

[Druggedfox]

Shine wavelands were fairly common among good falcos in 07, as forward started it and shiz picked up on it. I'm sure forward started doing it earlier, but it became more apparent to the public around 07

 

[KILLA.FOR.CASH.]

yeah i coulda sworn i saw forward doing it a long time ago too lol

forward will always be the best falco in my heart <3

 

[JPOBS]

yea but one player doing something the metagame hasnt changed until its common place which wasnt until 07. another example is the "nair drift backwards" thing which only got hugely popular in 08 when mango started doing it a lot and people say WC vids and it spread.

i was originally gonna mention peach getting better but i decided not to for the same reason because its really only armada.

 

[KILLA.FOR.CASH.]

i'll be the next person to advance the metagame

BELIEVE THAT

RAWRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

first step to advancing the metagame = dump your girlfriend

i got this

 

[Deleted member]

Clearly they were both(vman/axe) playing for entertainment purposes. Ive seen both of them play to win with falco and it doesnt look like that, altho both are still technical players nonetheless and still play at a fast pace.

just STFU and be entertained.

I understand this completely, but why not just play that way? It's very entertaining as is and there's nothing wrong with that. But v3ctorman asked for a critique so I gave him a sincere one. Honestly, sandbagging is boring. A lot of the enjoyment from good matches is the tension behind the players' decisions. That tension is isn't in that video, nor is any sense of adaptation. It's just boring watching people miss combos over and over again when there's really no reason for it.

edit: from above, I understand falco and how he plays quite well.

 

[JPOBS]

another thing about the metagame that has got a lot better is the defensive options.

sdi'ing fox's dair, sdi'ing fox's upairs, no tech->sdi sheik jab to escape tech chases, anti-combo DI etc

a lot of things just dont work anymore because people devloped skills to prevent them.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Just want to reply to pps response to bob$. I believe that bob$ was referring not to situations like falco being below marth on a platorm, but being below a marth mid-approach, clipping marth with a nair > anything then following it up with various moves. using that, would you care to reword your argument?

Marth would have to be SH'ing and have already Fair'd to be safer in that situation, unless that Marth would be approaching with a SHFF Fair, in which case Falco doesn't necessarily beat it but he could by CC'ing I guess? Marth's DJ backwards is a fine bait for those types of measures though, and taking a laser in any of those situations is certainly not a problem.

just because your hands forgot how to play doesn't mean your mind does

@ PP Jman is better than Zhu (I love zhu but i think jman is better player). Shiz is hard to say cuz he's the most varied player on the planet.

There's a reason Falco's have always been ranking higher than Fox's at the vast majority of major tourneys for the past 5 years. He's a better character. And If falco hits fox once, fox should die, or take tons of damage + be off stage at a bad position. Mango has proved that to me so many times when I play him. Shiz has proved this to me, and so has lambchops. No fox comes close to beating his Falco (Shiz and Mango especially) when they're playing good, and lambchops and Shiz beat ALL the fox's the majority too even you do (except mangos) even though you don't like that MU as much as others. So that's 3 or 4 Falco's who can beat EVERY fox the majority just from those people. Who cares if Falco is slow if you can't do much about what he does. Fox being fast doesn't stop him from being easily outranged and gimped. Falco can just laser laser laser and if he gets a hit (let's say 50/50 chance of getting a hit) he can do a large combo or kill off it. Marth can jab or F smash or something but they don't do more than get 1 hit off. Jab doesn't even lead to grab with Marth. Marth sucks and he's an overrated character, I only use him because I'm good with him. Falco ***** Fox dude if you just master how to combo Fox to death every time. Fox certainly does not combo the crap out of falco nearly as hard as the Falco does it to the fox. I do not believe the Fox's are behind the metagame as much as Falco is just a better all around character, and this has been proved through history for many many years by many different players. I don't think it's coincidence.

1. Wouldn't it be better for Sheik to WD back or Ftilt instead of grab when she takes a laser? Also I thought you couldn't really CC lasers??

^ In response to that if Falco does a Dair it completely beats out Sheik's F tilt. Not to mention the high combo, kill, or situational advantage that follows. With Fox, however, Sheik can just tilt through Fox's nair and either beat it or trade with it every time. I learned this from Captain Jack back in 2006 and then I use it on other people now too

PP let's say Marth shuts down an approach with a jab

Ok

jab doesn't lead to anything

if I f smash, it doesn't lead to anything

If Falco gets the hit (let's say 50/50 chance even though it's probably more than that) he gets a LONG COMBO from that or a KILL

you do a Nair, I get spiked.

You do a Dair, I either get spiked or tech chased on platforms

You do a dash attack, I get spiked

the fact that Falco has such strong follow ups + makes it hard to get in more than other characters is why I believe he is a top 2 character. Planking jiggs is still number 1 to me.

also I meant to say Hax's falcon not fox, that was a mistake. I've 4 stokced jman before by planking and once by just getting the lead and doing up/back throws at the edge and gimping or comboing to rest. I beat forward axe and taj by just planking them back around Devastation 2010 just to show them how gay it is. I have too much honor to do that stuff in a tournament I was just trying to show them what Jigglypuff COULD do so people can stop saying only Metaknight can plank (except MK has a ledge grab limit because ******s try to plank the ENTIRE game and ruin brawl while no jigglypuff tries to plank in melee, so they made the argument that there shouldn't be a comparison so I'm like okay I'll show you try to beat this and now they all think there should be a ledge grab limit for jigglypuff (called "cliffhangers" at end of game).

-----

Falco is slow so wtf does DD even matter? WD is definitely fast enough, as are Marth's aerials and other attacks which all have more range than Falco......

Wtf Ken learned the Falco matchup and beat PC back. Ken beat Bombsolider....I dunno I guess he was just too good....

CG is good to rack damage until you get platform tech chases to a kill or massive damage. It may not outright kill but it sure gets the super safe CC %s knocked out of the way. Plus the grabs can alternatively set up gimps or tech chases, which also make your life easier. So much can be done off a grab M2K why am I telling you this lol.

^^^^^

In response to this. PC beat Ken at OC3 with Falco in the set only to lose to my Marth right after. His falco wasn't even playing that good at that tournament compared to what it usually does. historically I do better against PC's Fox than Falco at most tournaments with OC3 being the outlier. PC has a winning or even record vs Ken's Marth with his Falco, and he isn't even at the top of that matchup I think he could improve a lot at it. I'm better vs Falco than Ken is with Marth. Ken thinks that matchup is heavily in Falco's favor - I have talked to him a lot about this in 2006 and a bit in 2007 on aim and once at OC2 in person. The only reason I picked up marth for Falco is because my Fox sucked at the matchup.

Chain grab is only good on FD. Grabs are very limited on other stages by comparison. BY A LOT.

Having more range is nice and all but when it only does measely damage for a guess while when Falco guesses it's MASSIVE DAMAGE then the odds are not in marth's favor :/ If Marth could combo as good as Falco then yeah sure. But as far as I can see Falco only loses on FD and Fountain and not even by much.

----

practice comboing Fox over and over and you will see how exploitable he is

I don't remember if that first line was a response to me or not, but I will say that someone who isn't keeping up with the metagame and just doing his own thing(while still being an amazing player) is only gonna get you so far.

I was trying to make a point regarding you saying opinions of players.....it was rhetorical lol. What if I disagreed and said Zhu was better but he's just inconsistent or something? Would that affect my views of the matchup? Sure it could. How about we just say that some people are better at certain matchups than others, and use our own judgment based on what we've seen(to a much lesser extent than what you like to use)+personal experience+theory to get a clearer view of a matchup?

Alright, so I just read the first line of that first major paragraph again, and I'm going to repeat the same response I gave you before about that. Ever since Brawl came out, we've seen a drop off in the number of great Foxes, and more recently in the practice and innovation from top Foxes. Falcos? They have been multiplying(me, Zhu doing new things, Chops getting deep into the psychological side of Melee and somehow enhancing his laser/combo game, Shiz returning and innovating well enough to give Falcos another prominent source of material to work with). Pre-Brawl, I seriously doubt the gap has been THAT big. I'm gonna look this up one of these days and I'll get back to you on it, but I only ever saw PC's and eventually Shiz's Falcos taking high spots all of the time. Maybe I'm just uneducated on a lot of the other Falcos(grassroots tourneys may have seen better days for Falco in the 05-07 era I'm unaware of?) of that time, but I feel as though I've seen plenty of videos and heard enough about history to the point where there were many solid Falcos, but they simply didn't outperform the Foxes at the top(especially compared to now).

What does Fox offer today hmm? Rusty, not-practicing Jman is the best Fox can offer right now. He's not out learning more about matchups or playing a lot to keep his tech up or even his comfort level in the game. How can you expect tourney results to show Fox>Falco when that is the case?

YES, Fox has Lucky and ColBol and Zgetto and Remen and lots of others, but they simply haven't pushed their character far enough yet to get over the familiarity associated with fighting Fox that players such as KDJ, PC at times, yourself.......and others offered(especially in terms of secondaries like what Ken/Isai/etc seemed to do), all taking top spots and certainly outplacing Falcos, especially after PC laid off the Falco.

Why is it so difficult to say that maybe the only/major reason everyone thinks Falco is better than Fox now is because of all of the PLAYERS pushing Falco so far, and that the Foxes simply haven't caught up yet?

For the record, I'm simply inexperienced vs a lot of Fox's development and I have to go home and internalize new thoughts and come up with ideas in order to counter them sometimes(much like you yourself do, only without the inexperienced part). I don't mind Fox except for when I'm dumb and can't figure out how to deal with stuff Mango came up with for him.

Outranged huh? What move beats Fox's upsmash? What move beats Fox's spaced Bair?

Okay come on now M2K, you can't tell me that stuffing an approach WHILE GETTING AN APPROACH AND DAMAGE isn't a great psychological advantage(both immediately and in the future), but it's also great for positional advantage, as well as allows Marth to pressure Falco to roll or even get a shield stab, which is something Marth was built to capitalize off of.

ASIDE FROM ALL THAT, why do you NEED to get a guaranteed punish off of stuffing an approach? What's wrong with a reset? If anything, that's a way to make Falco second-guess his approaches and gives you more data on what Falco does. It just makes your means of punishing/pressuring him much easier in the future and throws off the pressure on you in the immediate situation. Falco isn't that scary if you're swatting him away because then he can't do his shield pressure, right?

Uthrow/shine sure does start some good stuff. Fox is fast enough to keep the tech chase going and react to any type of defensive measure. He gets his DD back when/if he messes up a tech chase right? Falco would be stupid to outright laser because Fox is right in front of him and could hit him. So then, Fox gets to run circles around Falco even if he drops a combo. Does Falco get that luxury? No, he has to get EVERY read right or the combo is over and stage control isn't easy to maintain on a character that is significantly faster than yours.
If I were to agree Fox couldn't combo Falco as hard from one opening directly, I'd say Fox certainly can combo Falco as hard as a string or two of "consecutive hits."

1. If Falco Dairs to beat an Ftilt then Sheik's WD back gets her an Ftilt or a grab most likely when the Dair is punished. It's all just a mixup, and WD back tends to at least reset the situation so if anything, WD back should be the staple strategy and Ftilt should be used to beat any type of approach used to overshoot and catch Sheik's WD back. Seems incredibly solid to me and can certainly grants punishments that can rival that of a Dair combo.

Is Fox even supposed to try to Nair Sheik? I thought Dair was better vs her? CC and apparently this Ftilt thing seem to make Nair not a favorable option.

My Dair has been beaten by Ftilt before, do you know what would have happened there then?



I've already explained Jab. Same stuff will apply to an extent for some of these things you listed.

For Fsmash: You could set up an edgeguard situation or outright kill with it? I'm pretty sure you can edgeguard very well M2K, so that shouldn't be a problem lol. It could also kill sooner because the Falco would be trying to FF the laser, soooo that seems **** to me too.

I do a Nair, and you don't CC/powershield/shield DI? I'm pretty sure you can BEAT Nair with several of your moves anyway, and that's what a matchup is about. My longest horizontal-moving approach is BEATEN by your LONG SWORD. Your LONG SWORD puts me into bad positions or gets me GRABBED....WHICH I DIE FROM. That seems bad to me. It goes both ways.

Dair gets beaten by moves too, and it's also easier to hit Falco on the head then, or simply avoid since the move is him spinning his feet below him....If you do get hit though, then yeah sure you'll probably eat a rough combo, but instead of feeling like the matchup is hopeless afterward, you should use your character's own powerful abilities and range advantages to just do the same type of punishment back to me.

M2K, why would a Falco attempt a dash attack on Marth? That's just....not usually a good idea. But okay sure, if Marth gets hit by a dash attack then yeah he could take damage or get spiked, but that's also somewhat situational, not to mention totally DI-able I'm pretty sure.

How does he make it hard to get in exactly? Aren't most of the Falcos approaching you and not the reverse?

Alright M2K, play me at Pound 5 with this planking puff, and if I really can't do anything about it then I'll start to believe you.
Have you tried such a strategy on Mango by the way?

Maybe Ken's Marth was playing badly that day?

Maybe you and Ken both sucked vs Falco actually??? And yes, I know you're much better vs Fox than you are vs Falco, but that shouldn't be an argument because those are just YOUR personal player strengths.

Also it sounds like Ken and PC went back and forth despite Marth being bad vs Falco....and PC being bad at the matchup? I don't know what those facts suggest, looking back.

Uthrow still takes a lot of damage out of the way, typically puts Falco into a teching position, which blows vs Fox, and if Fox hits him out of the teching animation then he can't CC so I don't even know why it's so hard to just do an extra easy read or two to keep a combo going whereas Falco gets no such luxuries and is being pressed for reads and tight execution on a much slower character more frequently.

M2K have you actually seen the way you combo/trick Falcos when you get an opening? I don't believe it's all THAT different in severity from what Falco can do to Marth.

@Last line: Just because I can/could combo Fox well doesn't change the matchup. It just means I'm personally dumb. Neutral position/range of each character/what beats what/metagame advancements/etc are things that more than definitely have to be weighted just as heavily when discussing matchups.

WHEW

My qualm with the tech chase theory mainly has to do with how the Shine can be DIed by Falco to edgecancel and grab the edge from a fairly large distance. So Falco can hold near center stage (he's often under a plat anyways unless he's pushing) and cancel Fox's combos simply by grabbing the edge. I mean, I guess you can argue Fox has gained a large positional advantage, sure, but Falco has one of the broken ledgedashes (among other things), and positional advantage doesn't necessarily translate to automatic ****.

I think for all the rageposts over Falco's combo starters being difficult to hit, people should be reminded that Fox Shines can be edgecanceled (in addition to all manner of automatic follows like jab resets being escapable at stupid low percents with easymode ASDIs), throws can be edgecanceled (positionally dependent), Uairs are SDIable, Nairs and Bairs on platforms are ASDIable to ground yourself (or tech, or whatever), and Dairs are also DIable to high hell (what with it being a multi-hit move and all). Nairs and Bairs onstage, of course, are crouch cancel food until like 40 (unless super spaced, though if they're super spacing they also probably can't follow with a Shine so it's mostly just poking, and poking =/= automatic **** death combo).

Pie.

Shine can't always be edgecanceled, and it's not like Falco can always be expected to DI it correctly since it's a 1 frame move. Even if Falco does do it all right and land on the edge, then it's still tough to recover vs such a quick and fairly ranged character.

Ledgedashes aren't always done correctly either, but if we just play like they would be with unrealistic humans or whatever, then Fox still holds the positional advantage and can certainly bait ledgedash attacks/defensive maneuvers, which is the same as Fox controlling the stage well anyway. It's not an outright advantage, but it's definitely not where Falco wants to be. No room to RSHL/retreat really and the possible shine gimp scenario+Fox's Bair/etc range? Not a good situation to be in.

Jab resets being ASDI'd just makes Fox have to use his speed another time to punish a getup....not that hard if you're keeping yourself close to react to whatever getup is chosen. Plus, if Falco rolls farther from the middle, then you get a better chance of a kill.

Uairs can't ALWAYS be SDI'd, can they?

Generally you aren't prepared to get Nair'd/Bair'd or you wouldn't have gotten hit in the first place, so I don't know how fair it really is to say that those techs or edgecancels are totally feasible.

It's entirely possible to get a grab and take Falco past 40 so that Nairs and Bairs can still **** vs him, besides, it's not like Falco can just CC those attacks every time he gets hit by them early anyway for the same reasons I stated for CC not being entirely reliable as before.

I never really liked pie all that much.

I'm going to simply recycle "If we're talking high level play, Foxes Falcos should be able to do this even if it's not super easy". You know... the argument that invalidates tech chasing being anything but automatic death combo for Fox. Only it's not because so much can go wrong with it because of the nature of Fox's moves.

But oh well.

Also a lot of it is positional stuff so you don't actually have to do anything. Just don't air-dodge when you fall off level.

Falco's three main combo starters in the MU (Shine, Utilt, Dair) work more consistently than Foxes because they're less dependent on special positioning or circumstances to work. Dair needs them grounded. And if they're above 10-12 (making them at 24 or so after the Dair) then SDI doesn't matter. Shine's only restriction is that they're not visibly crouching, but if they're doing that you can Dair them anyway (again, if they're above 10-12... or just do late Dair - it is also worth noting that at worst they ground themselves or tech the Shine, which can be followed anyway, but since it's less guaranteed I'll concede it can be hard to follow if you're not expecting it). U-tilt is mostly for beating aerial approaches or extending combos, so nonsense like crouch cancel is largely non-applicable given the situations it's used in.

I'm not sure what else you really need. If he's airborne all manner of things open up as combo starters (especially at low percent), namely his sex kicks.

This reminds me of the "don't get grabbed" argument. You're going to get grabbed. Falco is going to hit a clean Shine or whatever. It's just going to happen. The fact that more stuff can mess up Fox's punishment suite than Falco's is just inherent to the nature of Fox's main combo starters and follows. They hit sideways, or are multi-hit moves. Falco's hit up or down, as single moves. The former is just more susceptible to nonsense than the latter.

Despite Falco having "dial-a-combos" I bet no one here has seen a match where a somewhat even spacie match was just constant 0-deaths back and forth. The mixups and defensive options that make Melee an incredible game also prevent Fox vs Falco from devolving into some super fast death matches(I'm typing a lot and getting tired you know what I mean lol).

For Dair:

You've already said that Falco can't start this off at 0, so he has to find some way to rack damage initially, and no Fox is gonna sit around and eat lasers until they're above that Dair threshold.

For shine:

It's pretty tough to just outright shine someone, but shield pressure and stuff happens so okay. Teching shines is very hard to follow and a super fast mixup if it could be utlilized(something I've thought of but never actually put into this matchup idea I have), and of course tech in place to shine would be a very scary role reversal to have to worry about when attempting to combo.

Utilt usually doesn't start combos if Fox spaces/baits appropriately because Falco is rarely in a position where he can force Fox to approach and in a predictable enough manner to simply Utilt to beat it(I'm pretty sure Utilt doesn't even beat Fox's spaced Bair anyway). Maybe I just need to see more Utilt combo-starter whoring....I'm still hard-pressed to believe that though.

Falco Nair'ing Fox in the air? I never see that and highly doubt Falco could catch an airborne Fox who's watching and spacing correctly, so I don't know how that's pertinent.

Uthrows are going to happen. Tech chases are going to happen. Opportunities to gimp are going to happen. Knockdowns are going to happen. Foxes just aren't taking advantage of all of these opportunities as well as Falcos are for reasons that are beyond me, or they get nervous and don't do it well enough in tournament for whatever reason.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMg_3c93pKE&feature=related

it's a shame pp already ***** him on FD that set. i think that falco fox is greatly in falco's favor on FD, because although platforms make comboing flow better at mid percents, with good DI, they allow foxes to tech onto platforms out of shines at low percents, rendering a lot of combos useless that you would get on FD.

this set was back at pound 4 though, so i know a lot of things have changed. PP certainly couldve edgeguarded better. but in any case, i think this shows how good fox's techchases really are. lucky could react to a lot of things and usmash as a free punish, which led into more usmashes, uairs, or even grabs if he wanted to.

LOL GAH DANG THAT SET GJHBKFDN.SLHSGRKD,K..SVG,GJK.NHGJ,H,N

Fox wins on FD fo dang sho.

Platforms can help their combos, but FD lets Fox get those wonderful CG 0-deaths. To be fair, Falco also gets some aid because Fox can't tech on platforms, but Fox benefits more from the easier CG here.

well since this is the ask dr peepee thread

what will be the best way to **** falco with fox

answer me good plz

Look at all this stuff we're talking about LOL. <3

LOL.


PP, what I meant to say earlier is that Marth's grab game is NOT utterly destructive. Huge typo there. And what I meant to say regarding platforms is that they help Falco combo more. And that Falcos have learned to avoid getting ***** TOO hard on platforms by using CCing and stuff like that.

and yes, we will play friendlies if you so please

You can hit Falco out of his tech animation so he can't CC.

and ****. =)

fair oos is a poor option to counter laser approaches in that it gives falco an opportunity to fight the fair right back. As soon as marth does a properly spaced WD back, falco's offensive momentum is cut such that most of the time it's just the better option. ultimately when marth wants to avoid the **** he should do so optimally, giving your opponent chances to capitalize on you is what makes bad play in the first place.

that said, SH fair is an excellent option to kill falco's aerial approaches without lasers, or any characters aerial approaches for that matter. old school marth has a very common strategy that when any character jumps at you, jump straight up and fair that move. marth's fair can hit bom-ombs and he won't take damage, and the same goes for other aerials.



Chu and I were sitting in his room a few weeks ago and I wanted to point out one of his common habits, when he just started watching the videos and said something to the effect of, "wow, I was really, really good." since then like he'll go to a tournament and do well or I'll play other "melee" people that still play and we'll both beat them pretty badly, but as far as I know chu won't really play melee anymore outside of free $ at tournaments and he won't really talk about it if you ask him to, and neither of us practice. I really don't know why either of us still beats all of these "I've improved!" players. It does kinda reinforce my theory that most improvement is largely overstated though.



Actually, no. marth doesn't want to "bait" anything outside of basic DD or 2nd jump. marth is such that your goal is to pressure with the threat of something to force poor movement that leads to an auto-checkmate situation. in this way, his pressure can be extremely subtle and very much opposes modern viewpoints in that you don't want to attack to pressure. that isn't to say he shouldn't attack, and often the safety game he forces can create surprise approaches by themselves. If you want to see what melee marth is supposed to look like, this is probably the most obvious example I can think of.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGR5qJ2zr_A

notice the lack of shield, how stupidly hard marth punishes for one error, how marth goes about applying pressure, and how even when fox slips his way out, he's never really in a good position to reengage marth. once he gets you properly, you can't do anything. Not in the same way melee players see it now where "but you can smash DI out here" but more in the sense of "sure I can do something in the technical sense I guess but I really can't DO anything". this is really what marth should be all about.

I also agree with everything m2k said in his longass post except jigglypuff being #1 (I'm a hater) and I think falco beats marth on FoD too because dsmash is STUPID good on the stage and it's way underused.

@ PP: I think you really underrate falco as a character in general. there has been nothing but empirical evidence so far to support that falco is better than fox.

Fair OOS is good at punishing a certain spacing on laser approaches, but yes it is much better to WD OOS. With varied timing on the Fair as a mixup, I'd say it's pretty tough to punish too, should Falcos become proficient at punishing that option in the first place.

I always figured that once you developed a certain depth of smash knowledge/understanding that it would still carry you far and allow you to beat people more involved in the current metagame simply because you could have developed your reading/basic smash skills better or whatever. Thanks for sharing though, that's cool. =)


I agree, and Marth can pretty much bait those things and threaten in that way, and I may have worded my response to something wrongly, which I apologize for if I did.

Totally agreed @ the next line.

Dsmash is really that good there huh? Cool, thanks.

I think people overrate him. I still don't think older evidence is even close at all to proving Falco>Fox, while I have already supplied reasons in response to M2K's long post to explain why things are the way they are now.

Usually smash is just about what you can and can't do. If you can't come back to the stage 4 times for whatever reason you lose. Thus, the better characters aren't the ones with more options, but instead the characters that are the best at shutting down the useful options of others. So long as this exchange does not change, neither does your skill level because skill in this game is relative in nature.

If anyone wants to see the actual worst match in the game, pick "relentless dair falco" vs yoshi. yoshi has literally no offensive or defensive options in any way against falco's dair. the character is incapable of beating that one move.

A very interesting post. Thanks for writing that up.

word

i wanna play vectorman

he'd prolly tap me tho

i wanna play him just cuz like

for like a year striaght(maybe longer) yoshi was the only character in the game i knew how to fight cuz i lived across the street from park lol

vman is beast

shoutouts to pp <3

<3333 waffles!

yo my puff ***** pp



cactuar change ur avatar.. that ***** scares me

Sup baby how'd those Falco dittos treat you last night? <3

Strawhats, I have played many of the falcos on that list. I strongly believe Sion is better than some of them. But I don't see any fruit coming from this discussion, haha.

It's a fun one to have, regardless of who "wins" the discussion lol.

lol i thought aldwyn was bad xD

the more you know...

i've played a lot of those falcos

but i play sheik and everyone sucks against her apparently so i can't productively comment on it

I just don't know how to fight a Sheik that knows their stuff so well. Maybe I'll be able to understand Sheik better after Pound 5. =)

i appreciate that julian, i don't really think theres anything good about my falco tbh

thats not even me trying to be humble or anything

i really think that LOL



well i don't main falco jr

so yea he's better

but u worded that like i aint beatin dp before or somethin

dylan has the best falco in norcal

its the better than mango's and pp's tbh, no lie

cuz he's spits hot fiyah

yo man I'll MM dylan

PP really has a style unlike any falco I'd really seen before. He sorta pushed the boundaries beyond chops/shiz. even if they are the source.

At the moment, I don't really see any point in creating a list of top falco players. Just my opinion.

My Falco is so weird lol. Thank you very much though! =)

Top Falcos are mad weird right now though. I wish I could play/watch Calle W more and have some more of them practice again....

PP just...does it all right. in my opinion. maybe thats just how i see him play against ganondorf. but he picks his spots, and does it all intelligently. he plays SMART.

some of his stuff is pretty genius though. some of his shield pressure is just hilarious. he'd like laser jab ftilt pivot utilt and then retreating laser to get the **** outta there. his falco is really clean and doesn't make mistakes.

i think i heard HMW say it once. his combos are so good that even if he ****s up, he doesn't get punished for it. it's because he doesn't overextend himself, and really understands where his advantages are and where they aren't. it's also why he underrates his own character, but he's so busy covering up falco's weak spots that it actually makes the character much stronger than he often gives it credit for.

tl;dr: pp's falco is right.

<3

i like to compare pp to gg7. they don't have a unique style, which in itself makes them unique. they're two of the only "textbook" players left in the community. They don't rely on gimmicks, and they don't go out of their way to be flashy in tournament. they play their character the way it SHOULD be played. even if they don't know a match up as well as another person, they just do general, GOOD things that nets them win after win.

@blackchris: Maybe you haven't seen stuff like that before, but I have. Jab is a difficult move to shield grab if you're not anticipating a jab. if you shield DI the jab away, shine misses, so he replaces the shine with an ftilt, and a turnaround ftilt to cover attempted punishes. if they don't bite, he covers his retreat with a laser and reaffirms control.

I'd like to play GG7 sometime to see this, but I feel like there have to be more players than just us that do this....

yeah, i've only been in the scene since october of last year. i've been as active as i could be in NC, but i don't really know too much at all about old school tactics or what kind of falcos may have preceeded PP and used similar safe tactics.

i'm fairly ignorant about the past, but i try to keep updated on all regions and skilled players currently active.

edit: if we're goin down to sleepyk/rice, i think nite should get some mention too. he's pretty good, from what i understand.

Forward liked Ftilt a lot. =p

Dudes don't know about Cam702. That guy is so creative and improving well too.

*struggles to turn off Gamecube*

I'm actually practicing* an interesting... "parry manuever" not sure how useful/effective it'll be but when I parry instead of using my parry animation which will enable Yoshi to jump OoS and use my "Nair Parry" I been testing if I could do this instead...

Parry > Double Jump Cancel > Dsmash... or more precise...

Parry > Double Jump Cancel > (I'm in my standing animation so I can do ANY move I feel like) while the opponent is still waiting for their move animation to end)

Yoshi's got some stupid/epic nifty freakin tricks.. but it's addictive...

0_0;

keep at it man! =)

"HAHAHAHAHAHA" - Dr.PeePee

no hard feelings GG7, it wasn't laughing at you, but at Rubyiris.

Smith trolling, ladies and gentlemen.

<3 GG7, kneegalize was cool haha.

Mango said that the tier list should be measured off of PP's perfect textbook falco.

LOL yeah I'm sure. XD

The worst part is I get this **** like seriously every day. I tell people how to win and they say I'm old and keep losing. lol

I respect old school players and their knowledge so much. Thank you for posting here. =)

damn kevin you just got dissed.

lmfao XD

The only thing thats being evolved in melee, is reaction speed and tech skill.

Basically the high level play of today is pretty much mimicking the high level play of the old days, except it is much much faster now.

Strong foundation is what makes good players :3

probably the biggest example of this is drephen. He has minimal tech skill but he is a BEAST.

Drephen made a thread a year+ ago saying he couldn't keep up anymore. Gotta keep up with the metagame itself to some extent or you'll get left behind, even if your own personal metagame stays relatively the same and in-practice.

kdj fox vs pc chris falco just looks like a slower and less technical version of lucky vs zhu or lucky vs dr pee pee

todays metagame has just improved on the old metagame. nothing truly ground breaking has been introduced to the metagame for a long time.

can you think of something else that changed the metagame so vastly in such ways that ken's dashdancing & DA dave's sh laser did?

look at jman's fox and then watch some old mew2king 06 fox videos. they play exactly the same, but jman has more precision with it




it looked like you guys were just playing semi-seriouslies, not seriouslies lol.
this might be because you guys are comfortable with playing each other alot, that comfort makes you guys do some akward decisions, but i dunno. it's obvious your falco's are hella good, but the sandbagging on both sides is very apparent.

I feel as though the current metagame should be taking principles of old and combining them with a lot of the new innovations and ideals of today. Marth would benefit worlds from this mentality, and it's what I try to do with my Falco...sorta.

I don't think it's fair to compare old school and new school top players like that because they'll just naturally be pushed along by different mentalities of what's best and what isn't to at least a fair degree simply because of how the game is changing, even if only at a more superficial level.

i'm not underestimating falcos metagame at all.

in my head I was using Dr PeePee as the standard metagame falco.

If you compare Dr PP to other falcos like shiz, Dr PP has a much stronger foundation than a player like shiz. (and also dr peepee is more consistent and also wins nationals)

Does Dr.PP have amazing shield pressure? not better than mangos. Does Dr.PP do double shines and shine grabs? not that i've seen ( but i might be wrong here)

The main thing that stands out to me in Dr.PP's play, is that he is extremely patient and has well placed lasers. He knows when to attack and when to retreat. He sees the openings, (fast reaction), and he punishes very hard (good tech skill)

call me oldschool but i believe that a strong foundation is what makes a great player, not all that crazy stuff like waveshine oos, jc grabshines, stuff like that

is shine oos even a viable tactic vs good opponents? being shined oos can be so easily avoided if you just space your attacks on their shield well, so you don't get shined oos

Nah I don't do double shines or shine grabs, but I've been meaning to get on that......I try to shine grab floaties but it keeps turning out as fullhops lmao.

I agree with the foundation thing though. The other(newer) stuff is certainly designed to supplement your foundation, but it's much harder to see such things today when everything is so shiny and fast.

Shine OOS, yeah it can still happen vs good opponents, but I almost see it as a mixup more than a natural response to a situation so people get a little careless in their pressure at times.

shine oos *****. pp prolly starts so many combos with shine oos its not even funny lol. even if it misses, he's usually free to jump out and waveland if he's under a platform.

if i understand correctly, i think he's trying to shinegrab more, especially in the jiggs matchup, but he just misses it a lot under pressure and ends up fullhopping LOL. he's pretty good at improvising though, so it just looks like he's putting good pressure on the jiggs with the fullhop or something haha.

i swear he didn't understand how to shorten the phantasm. last time we played i was just like "well...just spam b...and it'll shorten" he was like "wut? is that how it works?" what a funny kid.

THATS RIGHT KEVIN I PUT YOUR *** ON BLAST, IN YA OWN THREAD. HOW YOU GONNA ACT?

I also play a lot of NC's silly A's a lot. =p

yup

I still suck at it. F U

watch mango play. with every char, he carefully places attacks on their shield, away from shine oos range

maybe this is why mango's fox ***** drpp's falco? i want to type more but I have to do laundry, cus tonight im going back to socal =D *cops out*

That's part of why, yes. It also covers my roll options very well. In addition to this, Mango attacks much faster than other Foxes will, and I'll end up shielding vs him more so he can apply more of that deadly option-covering reverse Nair shine stuff. It's gay lol.

lolwat

----

why use mango as an example? you can't have amazing shield pressure unless your doing it better than the best? plus i don't really get it since you said you were using PP a top falco as an example, but then you kinda counter yourself saying mango does it better. technically it's not about the player, it's about the possibilities of the character. are you implying that mango hasn't changed the metagame..?

i do agree about the foundation, but i dont think it's right to not include all these big techskill things into what's making the metagame today. it just, conditions players. Knowing that you could possibly get shined oos generally should increase your shield pressure spacing and what you can do to counter/avoid it. double shines made people realize they can't always try shine oos or grab oos or anything till after the second shine, which can be quite surprising.

joeplicate has been doing waveshines out of shield pretty consistently in tournament with fox apparently[i've watched a few games of it in action]. Regardless of his consistency, the fact that this can be done makes for shineblinding across stage[plus being grounded after a shineOOS can be quite effective regardless of if they're shine-blind'able.], and falco is now able to start a full 0-death combo from Waveshining out of shield. Before it was generally Shine OOS to aerial, which couldn't always combo. This isn't being applied too often just yet, but i'm sure it's just the difficulty of making it habit.

But these are more important in the spacie matchups forsure. But, they're top 2 so i'd say that's pretty important.

i guess i'm on the aspect that the more techskill knowledge you have just gives you a better oppurtunity to capatilize on things, and with that comes more counters to these effective things to slow down how good it can be.

It certainly makes matchups deeper, but developments like waveshining OOS only supplement the pre-existing foundation for the matchup. It certainly can be a very important piece of the matchup right now because it's a new, hot thing though.

yea but one player doing something the metagame hasnt changed until its common place which wasnt until 07. another example is the "nair drift backwards" thing which only got hugely popular in 08 when mango started doing it a lot and people say WC vids and it spread.

i was originally gonna mention peach getting better but i decided not to for the same reason because its really only armada.

Other Peaches edgeguard better now at least I'm pretty sure.

I understand this completely, but why not just play that way? It's very entertaining as is and there's nothing wrong with that. But v3ctorman asked for a critique so I gave him a sincere one. Honestly, sandbagging is boring. A lot of the enjoyment from good matches is the tension behind the players' decisions. That tension is isn't in that video, nor is any sense of adaptation. It's just boring watching people miss combos over and over again when there's really no reason for it.

edit: from above, I understand falco and how he plays quite well.

word

 

[Dr Peepee]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=11905056#post11905056

Made the video critique thread.

Also that response took forever....whew

 

[metalreflectslime]

PP wrote all of that without editing his post. PP is the reason why the Falco boards **** all of the other character boards. I wished we had a PP for the Peach boards.

 

[Dr Peepee]

LOL you're too kind.

I just like helping/talking or arguing about smash haha.

 

[KILLA.FOR.CASH.]

wow pp you're so legit

who else really takes the time to discuss stuff on the boards like this?

most other players at your caliber get a huge ego and don't help anybody anymore

<33333333333333333 you're amazing and lets play at genesis2 =D i could learn a lot from you

 

[Dr Peepee]

Nah man ego's gay. I have too much to be taught by other people to neglect what they could offer me.

Helping is just cool lol.

If I can get to G2(which I'd looove to do) then you can count on us playing. =)

 

[Deleted member]

I'm not sure how you feel about generalized smash theory but I put some of my ideas in jesiah's thread.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=11814881&postcount=309

the majority of the old school mentality was to "just **** them" but underlying that was to develop techniques that the opponent couldn't do anything about. we used extensive frame data to research things to make sure that actually couldn't do anything about it, or it was so impractical to fight that it was basically the same thing.

here's a great example: falcon downthrow to knee on specific floaty characters. factually speaking, downthrow knee is inescapable on kirby or jigglypuff. however someone like peach can escape it. if peach is frame perfect. and then, all peach can do is air dodge out, only to get regrabbed by falcon. here, peach has options in the literal sense but she can't really do anything about it. all of the old school styles were based around these tricks into reliable punishment. the only acceptable alternative is risky gimmicks with very high rewards only when the opponent can't punish them. A good example here I guess is like KDJ used to use sheik's downthrow on fox and then tech chase with upsmash. if he misses, oh well, but if he hit the opponent got wrecked.

a big thing about new age smash is finding ways around things. "we can smash DI here" or "we have <insert option here> to deal with <problem> and while that's well and good, this game has a LOT of situations that you simply can't do anything about. so yeah, I like sion's dair > shine > grab or jman's laser laser laser > observe > grab. no matter how "good" the opponent is, those things will always work.

we can BS on aim more if you want. god knows i've been teaching druggedfox enough.

 

[V3ctorMan]

@ the drama I caused on the comments, critique....

my bad everyone, i should've elaborated it a bit better... i'm sorry on that... I sorta ment like a "here's some entertainment... what do you guys think? what other interesting/useless tech(s) should we try etc... Simply 2 falcos tryin to be overtechnial... ^^;

haha sorry abou that again... You guys should know me, I just like to entertain ^^;

<3 you guys n_n

 

[Dr Peepee]

I'm not sure how you feel about generalized smash theory but I put some of my ideas in jesiah's thread.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=11814881&postcount=309

the majority of the old school mentality was to "just **** them" but underlying that was to develop techniques that the opponent couldn't do anything about. we used extensive frame data to research things to make sure that actually couldn't do anything about it, or it was so impractical to fight that it was basically the same thing.

here's a great example: falcon downthrow to knee on specific floaty characters. factually speaking, downthrow knee is inescapable on kirby or jigglypuff. however someone like peach can escape it. if peach is frame perfect. and then, all peach can do is air dodge out, only to get regrabbed by falcon. here, peach has options in the literal sense but she can't really do anything about it. all of the old school styles were based around these tricks into reliable punishment. the only acceptable alternative is risky gimmicks with very high rewards only when the opponent can't punish them. A good example here I guess is like KDJ used to use sheik's downthrow on fox and then tech chase with upsmash. if he misses, oh well, but if he hit the opponent got wrecked.

a big thing about new age smash is finding ways around things. "we can smash DI here" or "we have <insert option here> to deal with <problem> and while that's well and good, this game has a LOT of situations that you simply can't do anything about. so yeah, I like sion's dair > shine > grab or jman's laser laser laser > observe > grab. no matter how "good" the opponent is, those things will always work.

we can BS on aim more if you want. god knows i've been teaching druggedfox enough.

Thanks for the link. =)

Wow, that's pretty much exactly what I could ask for as a well-thought out response concerning the new and older mentalities and overall thought processes. I think I will have to AIM you for sure.

Also lol DF would. <3

 

[V3ctorMan]

I sorta.........wanna play Ness... (like, seriously)...

>.<;

 

[Druggedfox]

Also lol DF would. <3

The more smash talk the better =D It's always nice to trade ideas, hear different mentalities etc....

and discuss broken falco shield pressure tactics

 

[Deleted member]

no one has broken shield tactics because any shield pressure generally has one answer or another ( and the best ones are usually very simple). however, falco's ability to control the stage outside of a shield game, and his ability to punish once a shield game is gone is merit enough to justify his character. if anything, falco's shield or vs shield game is probably his weak point, since it's the only surefire part of his game with holes or conclusive answers.

be more analytical of the ability of your character. knowing exactly what your character can or cannot do reliably to net you a win is much more important than any one technical aspect of your game. as a falco player, you should value your ability to shoot peach out of the air more than you should value falco's ability to shine grab, for example.

edit: even if you only have one option, so long as your opponent has none, you still win. consider this more deeply.

 

[TheGoat]

So, when to use nair as opposed to dair when approaching?


Also @ Professor Oak I noticed you wrote in that post :

"I really feel that the new age style of Fox called, "Hey look at my nair" is a big reason behind that character's poor tournament performance, but that probably deserves to be debated elsewhere."

I don't know if this is the right section for discussing, but can you elaborate? I am curious.