• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

Dr Peepee

Thanks for Everything <3
Moderator
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
27,766
Location
Raleigh, North Carolina
Max,

What'd you think of my fundamentals when you played me then? We honestly never discussed this, you were just surprised that I didn't suck =P

Obviously I had tech skill, but I like to think its not the foundation of my play. Also, are you passing through savannah at any reasonable time or are you home already?

@PP

Do you still have nerve issues??? Or did you just decide to mention it for the sake of discussion?
The only tourney I didn't really have nerve issues was RoM3(and HERB 3 iirc). I'm gonna see if I can keep it more consistent now though, not sure what my new mentality is gonna turn out like.

Mentioned it for discussion though. =p

what player does not get that lol

i still get that it just depends
I think some people can control it better than others though.

yo i love how this has become a general melee thread instead of a falco thread.

me and kage reppin ganon, oak reppin old school tactics, druggedfox reppin the "i'm sorta new, but i've got a good idea of how things work" side, and peepee reppin life as a smasher.

this is becoming my favorite thread.

i'm like a year and a half in, and thanks to this thread and other realizations, i'm finally getting my own real foundation, i believe. i've always been a nub who thought he was improving but wasn't really going anywhere, but now i think forward progress can be made.

comin for dat *** peepee.
Yeah it's really beautiful to see one great haven for smash discussion that reminds me of when I started playing. I love it.

And Cactuar is a horrible teacher.
For the reasons he stated or for something more?

only if ur falco

:awesome:
shut up dj lol <3
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
I think the issue I take with this is that in order to "master" A it requires an ever-raising bar of B. I don't like this breakdown because it's too simplistic to say that you can completely separate the two. You always need to be improving both of these. It's not like Lovage is a bad player or something. Tech skill is pretty formidable in it's own right and can overwhelm opponents. Plus, the more technical you are the fewer unforced errors you will make, which makes part A that much harder on your opponent.

Newer Marths have just watched a ton of m2k vids who is an incredibly technical player and has shown that yes, comboing can make a massive difference in a match. In fact, m2k vids basically scream this to new marth players at the top of their (figurative) lungs. And if you watch m2k play against spacies in 07 the spacies are making a lot more unforced errors than they are now, which compounded the amount of damage being done to them by being out-tech'd (Both in m2k's skill at punishing and in their own deficiency that gave him free openings).

That's why like every new marth sucks against characters like puff or peach but we pretty much all play competently against spacies. In certain matchups/scenarios B could easily be as important or more important than A. A is I guess more reliable overall but it's not as clear cut as one is always better and you're going to need a whole lot of both to play at top level so it isn't really worth distinguishing to me.
I'm not telling you to ignore B, I'm telling you to understand it. Tech skill is ultimately only going to overwhelm bad opponents. How valuable is the ability to beat bad opponents but not the good ones? How valuable is it to beat good players occasionally but not consistently? Your raw ability does not solve these problems.

I'm also not telling you to ignore tech skill. There is absolutely no excuse for poor technical proficiency, as it is the only thing in the game that you can freely practice at will. Your technical game should augment your mental game and give definition and power to your decisions, but it should never be the basis of your play style.

New marth sucks because the players suck, not because marth does not have the tools to address those characters. How often do you marth players ever stop and think "wow, marth's forward air is literally better than peach's entire character"? Because it is. If a peach is in the air and does something, you can fair it. The ability marth has to negate peach's entire air game is amazing. Do not underplay it.

That said, I revert back to my argument of basing your style off of check-mate situations that your opponent cannot outplay, stage control, thinking, adaptation, and focus on what you are really doing in a match. You cannot beat notable players consistently without this. You can however beat them without specific technical executions. If at any point you feel that your chaingrab on fox is more important than your ability to out-think the opposing player, that is reflective of your mental ability as a player and your foundation is weak. You will be unable to make notable progress at a higher level until this problem is resolved.
 

Mew2King

King of the Mews
Joined
Jul 18, 2002
Messages
11,263
Location
Cinnaminson (southwest NJ 5 min drive from Philly)
@ above poster. In theory yeah Marth's Fair is better than Peach's entire character. But after like 50% it doesn't lead into any move and without a nice tipper Peach can live to around 170% without too much trouble especially on larger stages. When Marth's offstage it's hard for him to get back on while at high % Peach gets hit once then floats on. In super theory mode where players are perfect yeah I agree marth ***** her though. Having auto-combos is super nice though. Peach gets a Fair on marth and marth will probably be dash attacked or off stage in a worse position no matter the %. If it wasn't for that it'd be a lot better for marth
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
@ above poster. In theory yeah Marth's Fair is better than Peach's entire character. But after like 50% it doesn't lead into any move and without a nice tipper Peach can live to around 170% without too much trouble especially on larger stages. When Marth's offstage it's hard for him to get back on while at high % Peach gets hit once then floats on. In super theory mode where players are perfect yeah I agree marth ***** her though. Having auto-combos is super nice though. Peach gets a Fair on marth and marth will probably be dash attacked or off stage in a worse position no matter the %. If it wasn't for that it'd be a lot better for marth
it doesn't have to do a lot of damage or kill her, it just has to make her air game worthless against you. at the very least, you should use it to make peach not want to jump at you. remember the days of your training, it is no different that using fox's lasers to shut down samus's ranged camping and crouch game, something you had quite a bit of difficulty with at the time. if you can make your marth vs an opposing peach's match revolve solely around beating your fair, you are already at a mental advantage even in a situation where no true advantage may exist. marth's fair can do more than damage and combos.
 

Niko45

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 16, 2008
Messages
3,220
Location
Westchester, NY
New marth sucks because the players suck, not because marth does not have the tools to address those characters. How often do you marth players ever stop and think "wow, marth's forward air is literally better than peach's entire character"? Because it is. If a peach is in the air and does something, you can fair it. The ability marth has to negate peach's entire air game is amazing. Do not underplay it.
I'm not sure what this is a response to really I feel like you missed my point so I'll try again. I wasn't trying to say Marth doesn't have tools or something, just that newer players are more tech heavy and it shows in that new Marths do better against spacies where their tech skill is rewarded much more greatly than against floaties.

Marth vs Spacies is a type of matchup that rewards a Marth with good tech skill in relation to his foundation.

Marth vs Peach/Puff is a type of matchup that rewards strong foundation much greater because you can only combo them so well and it's largely about spacing really well, being patient, you know, having good "basics."

New Marths don't suck at all against spacies but they tend to struggle with Peach/Puff. New Marths are based largely off M2K's amazing, very technical Marth, which I feel even he would admit is better against FFers than against peach/puff.

So like to further the point, imagine there is a marth player who simply doesn't know how to pivot grab and this Marth is fighting Fox. So since this Marth is incapable of pivot grabbing he needs to go another route to beat fox, and he decides to get really, really good at spacing fairs.

Now that's cool and all, but in this particular matchup, he'd see a much more rapid improvement in his results if he simply learned to pivot grab because the nature of the technique just punishes radically more efficiently. Pivot grab may be much less effective, or even irrelevant, in some other matchups, while being great at spaced fairs may be much more effective in another matchup. But in this specific case, B is more important than A.

And not only that, but A doesn't necessarily come before B. How is the Marth that can't pivot grab ever going to learn how to bait and set himself up to get pivot grabs? Is he going to see these setups before he can even execute the punish? Probably not, because if he can't pivot grab why would he look for them?

Breakthroughs in B open the door for more breakthroughs in A, and around and around you go. It's not as linear as "A over B, but B is cool too."
 

Cactuar

El Fuego
BRoomer
Joined
Mar 10, 2006
Messages
4,820
Location
Philadephia, PA
If you view fair as a move at any given frame, you might think it beats most other moves, but when you view it as a sequence of frames, it has a ton of vulnerability that really gets taken advantage of as the speed of the metagame increases. As a character, he struggles to keep pace with characters that get inside and do work.

Example: Marth's fair beats Sheik's fair.

Exception: Sheik's fair is started at the same time or even slightly later than Marth's fair. Sheik's hits lower and comes out in an arc that hits in front of her, and connects with Marth before his sword hitbox reaches in front of him.

Result: To beat Sheik in the air, Marth has to start all of his moves VERY early and hope Sheik jumps in and gets hit. As a result of this, Sheik has time to react and not jump into the ****, which resultsin Marth getting punished for mindless aerials.
 

Dobs1007

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 12, 2008
Messages
894
Location
West Chester, PA
I never really make an effort to teach people basic stuff. When it comes to really teaching people, my expertise is in strategy and theory(aka: high level play), not handholding through things I feel they should learn on their own.

The reason you see players these days with such weak foundations has a lot more to do with how quickly they are trying to improve. I don't know when it happened, but players started focusing way too heavily on tech skill, or focusing way too heavily on being able to combo. All of that doesn't really make you that much better because you haven't learned how to hit your opponent consistently. Eventually, there can be a decent payoff because you can focus on how to use your tech skill properly, but I much prefer the school of thought that encourages developing your tech skill around your play style, not the other way around.

I improved over a short period of time back when I started, but that was a result of me going to a tournament pretty much every weekend for the first year I played, and the fact that my focus as a Marth player was "how can I fsmash them?", not "how can I do a ridiculous death combo?" Landing one hit at a time became my thing, and to do that I had to improve on the basics relative to my style, which were spacing and movement.

tl:dr

I'm a fantastic coach, but I'm a terrible teacher. lolol
I actually have learned a lot and improved at this game from playing Cactuar I enjoy sitting down and breaking down matchups and strengths and weakness of characters. I remember back in the day gimpyfish had one of my favorite videos where he talked about aspects of the game here it is it is worth a view imo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltqgP-Xgceg

Edit video has multiple parts here are others
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9khDedACgY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_MyzLnOat8&feature=related

IMO to get better you need a combination of strong character understanding matchups then tech skill/combos and the best way to get better is by playing people better then you and losing. In my personal experience I started playing game cause roommates played. I would lose to them so wanted to get better to beat them then went to tourney didn't place well so wanted to get better so on and so forth. For me though you have to remember why originally started playing game which was for fun and not get too discouraged when lose and keep a positive attitude or you will never improve.

Hope people view this as an intelligent post one final thought

Dr. PP keep stacking it up your awesome :)
 

Rubyiris

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
6,033
Location
Tucson, AZ.
@the fair vs peach argument:

And then peach dash attacks under it and you get comboed.

fair isn't a sure thing. nobody has the patience for it.
 

Scar

#HarveyDent
Joined
Feb 11, 2007
Messages
6,066
Location
Sunnyvale, CA
cactuar doesn't strike me as the type who would make a poor teacher.

but this isn't the first time i've seen you say that lol
not for me anyways, i didn't learn **** besides tech skill and matchups

but of course it's possible that that's not true universally

but ya i would be much better if i didn't suck lol good observations prof oak
 

TheGoat

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 30, 2010
Messages
584
Invoker is literally the only character I miss from DotA, he was way too much fun.

anyway, carry on writing posts that are too long for me to care about at this stage of my smash career.
No love for Pudge?

And about the whole thing that players are focusing too much on tech skill; I agree, and I'm a victim of it myself. I think a lot of the reason why is because not everyone gets to frequently play others, and so we end up alone in our rooms with Melee, but we still want to get better. What to we do? Practice tech skill. And then not enough people learn good spacing/mindgames early on. My 2 cents.
 

Rubyiris

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
6,033
Location
Tucson, AZ.
umbreon said fair beats her entire character.

dash attack beats fair.

i wasnt saying anything about the peach in the air argument. i agree that marths fair > peach in the air, but also agree that marth has vulnerabilities in his moves.
 

meatpopsicle

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 10, 2007
Messages
146
Location
Marietta, GA/ Providence, RI
I actually have learned a lot and improved at this game from playing Cactuar I enjoy sitting down and breaking down matchups and strengths and weakness of characters. I remember back in the day gimpyfish had one of my favorite videos where he talked about aspects of the game here it is it is worth a view imo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltqgP-Xgceg

Edit video has multiple parts here are others
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9khDedACgY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_MyzLnOat8&feature=related

IMO to get better you need a combination of strong character understanding matchups then tech skill/combos and the best way to get better is by playing people better then you and losing. In my personal experience I started playing game cause roommates played. I would lose to them so wanted to get better to beat them then went to tourney didn't place well so wanted to get better so on and so forth. For me though you have to remember why originally started playing game which was for fun and not get too discouraged when lose and keep a positive attitude or you will never improve.

Hope people view this as an intelligent post one final thought

Dr. PP keep stacking it up your awesome :)
I never really make an effort to teach people basic stuff. When it comes to really teaching people, my expertise is in strategy and theory(aka: high level play), not handholding through things I feel they should learn on their own.

The reason you see players these days with such weak foundations has a lot more to do with how quickly they are trying to improve. I don't know when it happened, but players started focusing way too heavily on tech skill, or focusing way too heavily on being able to combo. All of that doesn't really make you that much better because you haven't learned how to hit your opponent consistently. Eventually, there can be a decent payoff because you can focus on how to use your tech skill properly, but I much prefer the school of thought that encourages developing your tech skill around your play style, not the other way around.

I improved over a short period of time back when I started, but that was a result of me going to a tournament pretty much every weekend for the first year I played, and the fact that my focus as a Marth player was "how can I fsmash them?", not "how can I do a ridiculous death combo?" Landing one hit at a time became my thing, and to do that I had to improve on the basics relative to my style, which were spacing and movement.

tl:dr

I'm a fantastic coach, but I'm a terrible teacher. lolol
This discussion has evolved into a general discourse on improving one's game and performance, which is cool because I think it complements PeePee's Falco-specific advice quite nicely. These posts in particular grabbed my attention because they made me wonder whether my desire to improve has actually counterproductively impeded my overall grasp of Melee. And I think in a sense it has, because I still haven't developed a way of playing that fits organically with my thinking process and understanding of what works and what doesn't, and I think what Cactuar was implying (please correct me if I'm wrong) is that to improve you need to first develop a grasp of the game (through learning MU's and playing lots of good people) that can then be applied to your particular way of playing. There's just no rushing that.

When I feel that I'm improving, it's during the moments when I realize the connection between a decision I made and the thought process behind it. It doesn't necessarily precipitate improvement, but from understanding this connection I can break down either how to replicate a decision if it was a good one or change a bad habit and try other things based on my experience of playing other people (except I haven't played that many competitive smashers :( ). Eventually, I'd like to get to the point where I don't have to think, "How can I do this again?" or, "What else can I do?" because it's embedded in my fingertips. That's how I imagine what developing my own style should be.

On a meta-self-conscious note, I feel that it really helps to think about how you think so that you can control the thought processes that drive high performance and summon them at will. I'll give you an example. I was just practicing JC shines and shining OoS with Fox and Falco. They're pretty hard technical feats for me to accomplish and I'm pretty scrubby, but I was just telling myself to not worry about how demanding they are or how terrible of a player I am. Instead, I first thought how much fun it was playing Melee even if I was by myself. Then I started focusing on specific objects in my mind that would make the task at hand easier to digest. So to JC shine, I simply thought B-B, as in, "Press B, press B." I am fully aware that I must press Jump before I shine again, but every time I thought B-Y-B I was too slow or messed up somehow. It simply took too much mental energy for such a small interval of time, and my fingers were unable to realize the movements I imagined.

Whenever I successfully JC shined, I noticed that I was focusing mostly on the interval of time between B's. I internalized the reality of these successful moments by simplifying my mind's (and thus fingers') understanding of this interval of time into a pattern of thinking- B-B. And whenever I thought B-B, the process of pressing jump between each shine was noticeably shorter. My execution of these shine techniques became way more consistent because I could abstract my thoughts into a specific pattern that I knew worked, though I still have a long way to go.

This example is obviously tech-skill related, but my point is that if I could incorporate the process of realizing and replicating my thought patterns into my strategy and my overall style, I know I could become a much better player. I used to ask some people how to improve my game and they would half-seriously say, "Don't get hit," and honestly how could they possibly be wrong? But the reality is that the "Don't get hit" mentality doesn't translate directly to winning matches. I can't just tell myself, "Okay, I'm not gonna get hit," and then JV5 stock everyone I go up against. One specific mentality does not account for the incredibly dynamic process of playing an intelligent, adaptive opponent in a game that requires players to react within split-second intervals. Players have to make decisions moment-by-moment, and in such a fast-paced environment the best decisions can only be informed by your own intuition/ experience/ muscle memory, and through what PeePee might call collecting data on your opponent. As in a game of chess, your moves correspond to your opponents' based on each other's options, except this game is taking place so quickly that the amount of time you can reflect upon these options is severely limited.

The way I see it, it's kind of like engaging in a subconscious dialogue between myself and my opponent, and this dialogue is taking place at a speed measured in frames per second as it is being articulated by our characters. Our thoughts are mediated by our controllers, and our language is the characters we choose. "Don't get hit" thus becomes something completely contextual- "Don't do Y or Z when you're character A playing against opponent B who is using character C when you're on D stage on E part of the stage spaced F far apart with respect to character C's punishment options G with character A at H% and character C at I%, but do use option J to safely avoid punishment or option K if seeking retaliation. If opponent C's recent behavior is consistent with behavioral pattern L, do J. If, however, his using M and/or N in situation O reflects a P change in psychology, do K." It doesn't really make much sense to break it down like that because for every situation you find yourself in there will be an endless array of variables that are nearly impossible to memorize and certain variables, namely the psychology of your opponent, that are impossible to consistently account for. However, the beauty of experience, and of developing a style while employing strategy, is that the process of choosing options becomes, as I've said before, embedded in your fingers. You might have to consciously look at things like percentages when you're weighing your options, but by the time you have to make a decision, most of the thinking has already been done subconsciously and all that information has already been digested.

The "don't do this or that" inner monologues are really singular thoughts during precise moments of a match. When you can generalize successful patterns of choosing options, you can condition yourself to adapt to any situation, character, or opponent. That, of course, takes time.

Regarding Drugged Fox's question on nerves, I agree with others that there isn't any getting rid of them, but I find that being nervous and most negative states of mind in general have a tendency to make themselves worse. The more you are aware of the feeling, the more intense that feeling becomes. Sort of like what I did to JC shine, maybe it helps to think about a productive thing you should be doing to take your mind off your anxiety. Doing technical stuff in between stocks, for example, doesn't necessarily calm me down but it gets me to think that if I can at least control my character, I can control myself. I just saw a vid of you during the last match of a LF's set I think, and it was clear you were losing your composure. You were messing up your SHFFLs, getting chain grabbed, and spot dodging. I think once you realized that your tech skill was being affected, you started being more careful and went for more grabs. In a sense, you were adapting to yourself. Once you landed a few grabs, that match was basically yours.
 

KILLA.FOR.CASH.

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 2, 2006
Messages
2,916
Location
Fullerton, Socal
dash attack doesn't BEAT marth's fair, priority wise, but dash attack is mobile & fast enough to get under marth's fair, since marth's fair hitbox comes out from the top.

refer to cactuars post about marth's fair a few posts up.

wow we should really be talking about this on cactuars thread instead LOL!
 

forward

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 18, 2004
Messages
2,376
Location
Tucson Arizona
Lots of good smash talk going on in here.

Marth vs Falco: Marth wins if Falco messes up. If Falco doesn't mess up and he can land his l cancels, sweet spot recovery, and not take unnecessary risks, he will win. I'm sure about that. Falco definitely wins the match in theory. Marth still wins a lot though because when Falco messes up, even a little bit, he can punish hard. IMO Marth's goal should be to wear the Falco down, make them lose patience or tire them out, psychologically get to his head, then the opportunities to win are there.

This is random but I thought I'd throw it in. I've seen a lot of talk about old school Falco so, here is some of the stuff that I give myself credit for inventing/adding to Falco's metagame. Double lasers, shine > waveland combos, forward b ledge cancels, pull away aerials to bait a shield grab, wavedash to platform for tech chase. I also did shine > laser shield pressure to call rolls a LONG time ago, probably 03. There's a lot of things that can't be traced back to me exactly but I added them to my game and they kept me ahead of the metagame. Pretty common stuff now but it wasn't always. Empty short hop (faking a bair) to grab when pressuring at the corner. My lasers, I had a good mix up of pivot, retreating, double jump high-low or high-mid, etc. I combined lasers with movement in general, all good players do that in there own way but I had my style that I think showed in lambchops, pp, pc, and especially Zhu. Watching Zhu play Falco is usually the closest to my own.

I don't mean to discredit people's own ingenuity though. It's not like people just copied my style, not at all, I think we all copied each other. I know I copied Crystal City Falcos (Rob$ and Caveman), probably them more than anyone else because their style was different at the time. CC was notorious for playing "slow" and when I started I just wanted to be super aggressive. Their style taught me patience and smarts. I think most Falcos go through that. Players start out wanting to be really aggressive, then they play a Falco who plays slower than them and ***** them and then they learn a lot from that style and improve a lot. I think I provided those beatings to PC and DSW <3

My favorite Falco combo is up throw > fsmash against Fox at 50%. I rarely pull it off in matches but I can get it in training mode all the time! I also like shine > waveland > up tilt, its a tricky combo and it's also hard to follow up consistently but it's beautiful when pulled off.

I said this before but I love how PP is bringing back the up tilt. The first time I played caveman we did a Falco ditto and I got ***** by up tilt so hard. This was back in, 04 or 05, it was at Moast 3, and caveman simply called my approaches and did up tilt > f smash combos. I was trying to play aggressive and it failed. After that, I learned up tilt beats almost everything and I abused the **** out of it. I sort of forgot about it when I started working on platform tricks. Now that platforms have been developed pretty fully though and people are consistent with them it makes sense that an old powerful tactic is making its way back into Falcos game.

My overall style with Falco was very solid IMO. I could do everything Falco had at an A level when I played my best. Shiz had like S level shield pressure and I had A, but I had better movement to bait people from their shields so I didn't need it. I would give this advice to any aspiring Falco out there, balance yourself. If you want to be effective you need to have a great camping laser game, safe shield pressure, tricky movement, consistent techskill, and an ample amount of recovery tricks. Learn how to play Falco's ground game too, aka shield pressure without shines. F tilts, jabs, d tilts, up tilts, and some shuffle or auto canceled bairs. When the opponent is at high % don't stress yourself, just abuse his godly f tilt range and when it hits you get a free ledge guard.

I'm just reminiscing here. Don't take this stuff too seriously, this was the game through my eyes so it's not objective truth.
 

Rubyiris

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
6,033
Location
Tucson, AZ.
I hate facing up tilt-happy falcos so much. It makes me feel like a moron, because i always forget how good of a move it is.
 

Dr Peepee

Thanks for Everything <3
Moderator
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
27,766
Location
Raleigh, North Carolina
Marth's moves get beat based on timing, not spacing/priority. His moves leave him very vulnerable.
I think that, in order for Marth to be more successful these days, that he should simply change up his timings for his moves so that they simply can't be predicted and punished. It can give people the sense that Marth is more punishable than he really is simply because they usually get away with punishing silly lag. Marth still has tons of range, but the way he has to abuse it now needs to catch up.

This discussion has evolved into a general discourse on improving one's game and performance, which is cool because I think it complements PeePee's Falco-specific advice quite nicely. These posts in particular grabbed my attention because they made me wonder whether my desire to improve has actually counterproductively impeded my overall grasp of Melee. And I think in a sense it has, because I still haven't developed a way of playing that fits organically with my thinking process and understanding of what works and what doesn't, and I think what Cactuar was implying (please correct me if I'm wrong) is that to improve you need to first develop a grasp of the game (through learning MU's and playing lots of good people) that can then be applied to your particular way of playing. There's just no rushing that.

When I feel that I'm improving, it's during the moments when I realize the connection between a decision I made and the thought process behind it. It doesn't necessarily precipitate improvement, but from understanding this connection I can break down either how to replicate a decision if it was a good one or change a bad habit and try other things based on my experience of playing other people (except I haven't played that many competitive smashers :( ). Eventually, I'd like to get to the point where I don't have to think, "How can I do this again?" or, "What else can I do?" because it's embedded in my fingertips. That's how I imagine what developing my own style should be.

On a meta-self-conscious note, I feel that it really helps to think about how you think so that you can control the thought processes that drive high performance and summon them at will. I'll give you an example. I was just practicing JC shines and shining OoS with Fox and Falco. They're pretty hard technical feats for me to accomplish and I'm pretty scrubby, but I was just telling myself to not worry about how demanding they are or how terrible of a player I am. Instead, I first thought how much fun it was playing Melee even if I was by myself. Then I started focusing on specific objects in my mind that would make the task at hand easier to digest. So to JC shine, I simply thought B-B, as in, "Press B, press B." I am fully aware that I must press Jump before I shine again, but every time I thought B-Y-B I was too slow or messed up somehow. It simply took too much mental energy for such a small interval of time, and my fingers were unable to realize the movements I imagined.

Whenever I successfully JC shined, I noticed that I was focusing mostly on the interval of time between B's. I internalized the reality of these successful moments by simplifying my mind's (and thus fingers') understanding of this interval of time into a pattern of thinking- B-B. And whenever I thought B-B, the process of pressing jump between each shine was noticeably shorter. My execution of these shine techniques became way more consistent because I could abstract my thoughts into a specific pattern that I knew worked, though I still have a long way to go.

This example is obviously tech-skill related, but my point is that if I could incorporate the process of realizing and replicating my thought patterns into my strategy and my overall style, I know I could become a much better player. I used to ask some people how to improve my game and they would half-seriously say, "Don't get hit," and honestly how could they possibly be wrong? But the reality is that the "Don't get hit" mentality doesn't translate directly to winning matches. I can't just tell myself, "Okay, I'm not gonna get hit," and then JV5 stock everyone I go up against. One specific mentality does not account for the incredibly dynamic process of playing an intelligent, adaptive opponent in a game that requires players to react within split-second intervals. Players have to make decisions moment-by-moment, and in such a fast-paced environment the best decisions can only be informed by your own intuition/ experience/ muscle memory, and through what PeePee might call collecting data on your opponent. As in a game of chess, your moves correspond to your opponents' based on each other's options, except this game is taking place so quickly that the amount of time you can reflect upon these options is severely limited.

The way I see it, it's kind of like engaging in a subconscious dialogue between myself and my opponent, and this dialogue is taking place at a speed measured in frames per second as it is being articulated by our characters. Our thoughts are mediated by our controllers, and our language is the characters we choose. "Don't get hit" thus becomes something completely contextual- "Don't do Y or Z when you're character A playing against opponent B who is using character C when you're on D stage on E part of the stage spaced F far apart with respect to character C's punishment options G with character A at H% and character C at I%, but do use option J to safely avoid punishment or option K if seeking retaliation. If opponent C's recent behavior is consistent with behavioral pattern L, do J. If, however, his using M and/or N in situation O reflects a P change in psychology, do K." It doesn't really make much sense to break it down like that because for every situation you find yourself in there will be an endless array of variables that are nearly impossible to memorize and certain variables, namely the psychology of your opponent, that are impossible to consistently account for. However, the beauty of experience, and of developing a style while employing strategy, is that the process of choosing options becomes, as I've said before, embedded in your fingers. You might have to consciously look at things like percentages when you're weighing your options, but by the time you have to make a decision, most of the thinking has already been done subconsciously and all that information has already been digested.

The "don't do this or that" inner monologues are really singular thoughts during precise moments of a match. When you can generalize successful patterns of choosing options, you can condition yourself to adapt to any situation, character, or opponent. That, of course, takes time.

Regarding Drugged Fox's question on nerves, I agree with others that there isn't any getting rid of them, but I find that being nervous and most negative states of mind in general have a tendency to make themselves worse. The more you are aware of the feeling, the more intense that feeling becomes. Sort of like what I did to JC shine, maybe it helps to think about a productive thing you should be doing to take your mind off your anxiety. Doing technical stuff in between stocks, for example, doesn't necessarily calm me down but it gets me to think that if I can at least control my character, I can control myself. I just saw a vid of you during the last match of a LF's set I think, and it was clear you were losing your composure. You were messing up your SHFFLs, getting chain grabbed, and spot dodging. I think once you realized that your tech skill was being affected, you started being more careful and went for more grabs. In a sense, you were adapting to yourself. Once you landed a few grabs, that match was basically yours.
A lot of that is very good thought. =)

I personally just gained confidence through winning and exposure to nerves so that I could sorta kinda control them if I needed to. Everyone comes up with their own answers through repeated exposure to stress that induces nervous reactions I think....if they really want to.

From Umbreon/Oak:

"Tell dr.pp i'm in NC, where the girls are all fat and the falcos are free =D"
HAHAHAHAHAHA <3 that man

Lots of good smash talk going on in here.

Marth vs Falco: Marth wins if Falco messes up. If Falco doesn't mess up and he can land his l cancels, sweet spot recovery, and not take unnecessary risks, he will win. I'm sure about that. Falco definitely wins the match in theory. Marth still wins a lot though because when Falco messes up, even a little bit, he can punish hard. IMO Marth's goal should be to wear the Falco down, make them lose patience or tire them out, psychologically get to his head, then the opportunities to win are there.

This is random but I thought I'd throw it in. I've seen a lot of talk about old school Falco so, here is some of the stuff that I give myself credit for inventing/adding to Falco's metagame. Double lasers, shine > waveland combos, forward b ledge cancels, pull away aerials to bait a shield grab, wavedash to platform for tech chase. I also did shine > laser shield pressure to call rolls a LONG time ago, probably 03. There's a lot of things that can't be traced back to me exactly but I added them to my game and they kept me ahead of the metagame. Pretty common stuff now but it wasn't always. Empty short hop (faking a bair) to grab when pressuring at the corner. My lasers, I had a good mix up of pivot, retreating, double jump high-low or high-mid, etc. I combined lasers with movement in general, all good players do that in there own way but I had my style that I think showed in lambchops, pp, pc, and especially Zhu. Watching Zhu play Falco is usually the closest to my own.

I don't mean to discredit people's own ingenuity though. It's not like people just copied my style, not at all, I think we all copied each other. I know I copied Crystal City Falcos (Rob$ and Caveman), probably them more than anyone else because their style was different at the time. CC was notorious for playing "slow" and when I started I just wanted to be super aggressive. Their style taught me patience and smarts. I think most Falcos go through that. Players start out wanting to be really aggressive, then they play a Falco who plays slower than them and ***** them and then they learn a lot from that style and improve a lot. I think I provided those beatings to PC and DSW <3

My favorite Falco combo is up throw > fsmash against Fox at 50%. I rarely pull it off in matches but I can get it in training mode all the time! I also like shine > waveland > up tilt, its a tricky combo and it's also hard to follow up consistently but it's beautiful when pulled off.

I said this before but I love how PP is bringing back the up tilt. The first time I played caveman we did a Falco ditto and I got ***** by up tilt so hard. This was back in, 04 or 05, it was at Moast 3, and caveman simply called my approaches and did up tilt > f smash combos. I was trying to play aggressive and it failed. After that, I learned up tilt beats almost everything and I abused the **** out of it. I sort of forgot about it when I started working on platform tricks. Now that platforms have been developed pretty fully though and people are consistent with them it makes sense that an old powerful tactic is making its way back into Falcos game.

My overall style with Falco was very solid IMO. I could do everything Falco had at an A level when I played my best. Shiz had like S level shield pressure and I had A, but I had better movement to bait people from their shields so I didn't need it. I would give this advice to any aspiring Falco out there, balance yourself. If you want to be effective you need to have a great camping laser game, safe shield pressure, tricky movement, consistent techskill, and an ample amount of recovery tricks. Learn how to play Falco's ground game too, aka shield pressure without shines. F tilts, jabs, d tilts, up tilts, and some shuffle or auto canceled bairs. When the opponent is at high % don't stress yourself, just abuse his godly f tilt range and when it hits you get a free ledge guard.

I'm just reminiscing here. Don't take this stuff too seriously, this was the game through my eyes so it's not objective truth.
Marth's conditioning on Falco is more abstract, like Umbreon said. Falco will have a very tough time getting in on a competent Marth, and then Marth's range becomes much easier to abuse. Of course you already know about Falco's psychological game, and getting stuffed in many different ways will certainly play into how much you actually WANT to laser or even move really should Marth find success. That just makes it easy for Marth to control Falco though, and I think the punishment Marth can give Falco adds another layer of fear or least caution when dealing with Marth if Marth counters/controls correctly.

Yeah I figured you did most of that stuff from what I've been reading/watching, but cool. I don't think I really added much for Falco, just changed stuff that already existed. I'm hoping I can change that in the future though. I'd really like to leave my mark with some techniques, you know?

I started out slow and campy, and eventually moved to a somewhat faster Falco because I played with Chops at HERB 2. I think my confidence I gained from improving helped me make that transition.

That combo is hilarious and Twitch hates it lmao. I do the shine waveland Uptilt sometimes and it feels tricky yeah lol.

I discovered Uptilt for myself in 08. Very first thing I abused with Falco. XD

I would suggest that Falcos just try to play to their personal strengths and it will all come together because people who want to improve will cover that eventually. I always advocate a more natural approach to growth and really only want to advise against focusing on one area of improvement/skill too much or neglecting an area or something like that.
 
Top Bottom