PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Rockstar]

I saw this was a falco thread, so you guys should check this out. Kansas's Falco vs a midwest olimar. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1uEoEXit5U Enjoy. Tell me what you think

 

[Druggedfox]

Uh Shine OoS only works in falco dittos if the falco gets risky >_>

Uh back throw only combos on bad DI, and even then can sometimes be buffered out of.

Uh falco vs falco is like 90-10 sheik's favor, cuz sheik's THAT gay :D

 

[Dr Peepee]

u should discuss falco dittos

my strat is to ledge camp until i can get a grab then back throw F throw, double laser and spike them

and keep doing that it's funny

and Shine OOS when they aerial my shield

LOL M2K do you edgecamp with every character? XD Does that edgeguard even work on Mango?

Uh Shine OoS only works in falco dittos if the falco gets risky >_>

Uh back throw only combos on bad DI, and even then can sometimes be buffered out of.

Uh falco vs falco is like 90-10 sheik's favor, cuz sheik's THAT gay :D

Shine OOS works during holes in Falco's aerial shine pressure as well.

Can't they jump out even if they DI in? That's what happens to me a lot anyway.

Not in a good position to write more things about Falco dittos right now, but I will eventually.

I will say that Dair>Nair but as an approach they're situational. Also platform game is really interesting in this matchup, and I don't mean for comboing.

 

[LumpyCPU...]

i've taken stocks off m2k.

they were friendlies... but he wasn't very friendly...

 

[Dark Hart]

Jason once told me to go Fox, and he went DK and chose FD and said it was fun

I didn't have fun

Not at all

oh hai there Kenny

 

[Rubyiris]

I saw this was a falco thread, so you guys should check this out. Kansas's Falco vs a midwest olimar. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1uEoEXit5U Enjoy. Tell me what you think

I think that this is a brawl video in a melee-specific board.

 

[Druggedfox]

LOL M2K do you edgecamp with every character? XD Does that edgeguard even work on Mango?



Shine OOS works during holes in Falco's aerial shine pressure as well.

Can't they jump out even if they DI in? That's what happens to me a lot anyway.

Not in a good position to write more things about Falco dittos right now, but I will eventually.

I will say that Dair>Nair but as an approach they're situational. Also platform game is really interesting in this matchup, and I don't mean for comboing.

Aerial shine pressure qualifies as risky.

Yeah they can, but I figured they shouldn't even be DI'ing in a position where its even risky. Back throw is only useful when the opponent's not used to it.

Falco dittos are fun/gay/stupid

M2K's entire strategy, as he said it, is "camp the edge, throw them off, edgeguard"

 

[Dr Peepee]

Aerial shine pressure qualifies as risky.

Yeah they can, but I figured they shouldn't even be DI'ing in a position where its even risky. Back throw is only useful when the opponent's not used to it.

Falco dittos are fun/gay/stupid

M2K's entire strategy, as he said it, is "camp the edge, throw them off, edgeguard"

Mango's reverse Nair shine stuff hasn't been beaten yet I don't think.

They could react too if they just mash jump instinctively like I do at times but sure we can say that I guess.

ye

yeeeee

 

[LumpyCPU...]

Jason once told me to go Fox, and he went DK and chose FD and said it was fun

I didn't have fun

Not at all

oh hai there Kenny

he said go fox, then he switched to marth and went FD.
then i picked dreamland and he reset the match to pick sheik and still whooped me and i was all like :fuuu:

 

[JPOBS]

whats a "reverse nair shine" PP?

 

[Druggedfox]

It's where mango faces backwards and nair shine pressures

The spacing that happens because of it allows the falco doing it to be in a really safe position where he pretty much can't be punished. You can't shield grab it/shine OoS, and it doesn't really require you to pay that much attention to how you space it as long as you initially position it correctly. He does it alllll the time

And PP, we've already addressed ways of beating fox's shield pressure... I'm sure similar ideas can be applied to the reverse nair stuff. If you don't think so, I'm sure I can come up with something given like a minute =P AIMMMMMM

 

[#HBC | Mac]

i really dont understand how the reverse nair pressure works even after that explanation druggedfox. but theres something about it, whenever i do it, i always am able to get the shine off. it doesnt really make sense to me, but i just use it anyways

 

[JPOBS]

wait what? wtf is going on here

is this reverse nair shine pressure stuff like...common place? I've seen mango do it a few times, i've even done it myself on occasion when the need arises for it

but how is it better and more foolproof than the other variations of aerial-shine pressure to the point where you don't even have to watch spacing?

I'd very much appreciate an indepth analysis of this becaus ei've never seen/heard it discussed before. frame data would be neat-o too

 

[KILLA.FOR.CASH.]

how do you beat a fox that is perfectly drillshining you?

isnt that inescapable shield pressure? or do things like shine oos or wavedash away beat that? o-o

i mean you can probably jump out and away from it, or roll away, but can you do anything else to *beat* it?

 

[Palpi]

SDI the dair if it hits you? Does anyone still drill shield pressure?

 

[KILLA.FOR.CASH.]

even if it does hit you, the fox can still grab?

but i wasnt talking about fox drillshining and it hitting, i know that you can DI out of that.

i'm talking about drillshining on shields.... what do you do then?

maybe this is the wrong boards to be asking this question on, lol. some reason whenever i have a smash question, i just refer to this thread.

 

[Dr Peepee]

wait what? wtf is going on here

is this reverse nair shine pressure stuff like...common place? I've seen mango do it a few times, i've even done it myself on occasion when the need arises for it

but how is it better and more foolproof than the other variations of aerial-shine pressure to the point where you don't even have to watch spacing?

I'd very much appreciate an indepth analysis of this becaus ei've never seen/heard it discussed before. frame data would be neat-o too

Mango only does it, but it scared me when he first did it to me with his Fox at rom3 because I couldn't roll out of it(Nair faced one way I'd like to roll, which is behind him and into the stage) safely and of course he didn't mess up/mixed in roll baits anyway.

how do you beat a fox that is perfectly drillshining you?

isnt that inescapable shield pressure? or do things like shine oos or wavedash away beat that? o-o

i mean you can probably jump out and away from it, or roll away, but can you do anything else to *beat* it?

I think drillshine is worse than Nair shine overall? As in, more frames to shine OOS before the shine or something. Either way, shield DI is really fun to use vs drill and makes your life easier.

I don't think you can WD OOS on it but if you are shield DI'ing then maybe? I dunno I haven't played vs that so I couldn't tell you and I've never read it.

 

[Druggedfox]

Check Kirbykaze's frame data for shield pressure... he has everything there.

JPOBS, I'll give an indepth analysis sometime when its not 4 in the morning. It's pretty kewl how the spacing works out because of the positioning that you end up in doing it backwards.

 

[Deleted member]

Breakthroughs in B open the door for more breakthroughs in A, and around and around you go. It's not as linear as "A over B, but B is cool too."

pivot grabbing for the CG goes into the "A" category because fox can't do anything about it. The primary difference between my two arbitrary categories is that the ones in the A category have no decisive answers to beat them, and those in the B category do. You should make the core of your game play revolve around tactics that have no effective counter-strategies.

example: new marths suck against peach/jigglypuff because they don't camp enough. peach and jigglypuff don't really have any solutions to marth's camping, they just kinda have to play by his rules and beat him anyway. Breakthroughs in B category tactics are still ultimately inferior to the established A category tactics in that there are still solutions to them. Refer to marth using fair oos to beat falco's approach game.

m2k is just impatient and needs to camp more. he'd **** hbox/armada with marth sideways if he were more patient and he knows it.

i'm bout to go visit the oakman himself and get my first pokemon

Buy a Weedle from Team Rocket. Leave me alone.

A lot of Muk coming from the prof IMO.

deal.

no it's just camping which i don't do enough

yea pretty much. just **** them.

If you view fair as a move at any given frame, you might think it beats most other moves, but when you view it as a sequence of frames, it has a ton of vulnerability that really gets taken advantage of as the speed of the metagame increases. As a character, he struggles to keep pace with characters that get inside and do work.

Example: Marth's fair beats Sheik's fair.

Exception: Sheik's fair is started at the same time or even slightly later than Marth's fair. Sheik's hits lower and comes out in an arc that hits in front of her, and connects with Marth before his sword hitbox reaches in front of him.

Result: To beat Sheik in the air, Marth has to start all of his moves VERY early and hope Sheik jumps in and gets hit. As a result of this, Sheik has time to react and not jump into the ****, which resultsin Marth getting punished for mindless aerials.

Marth should never offer a move to be challenged since he will get timing ***** as you described. marth is better off waiting for a move to challenge him and then beating it.

@the fair vs peach argument:

And then peach dash attacks under it and you get comboed.

fair isn't a sure thing. nobody has the patience for it.

dash attack isn't guaranteed to beat his fair game nor does it negate it and thus goes into the B category. stick to things that work. unfortunately for peach, there is no answer and that's why marth should **** peach. dash attack might work in a pinch but it has answers. we want something more...reliable.

What the prof was saying is that if Peach ever jumps, you can react and fair her.

terrible idea, she can fair camp you right back. just camp.

but ya i would be much better if i didn't suck lol good observations prof oak

you **** and you know it. that your weakness is such an obvious one and so easily corrected should be your Christmas present. struggling players everywhere envy you on both levels.

From Umbreon/Oak:

"Tell dr.pp i'm in NC, where the girls are all fat and the falcos are free =D"

Fat girl at a rest stop asked me for a Squirtle. I kindly obliged.

I think that, in order for Marth to be more successful these days, that he should simply change up his timings for his moves so that they simply can't be predicted and punished. It can give people the sense that Marth is more punishable than he really is simply because they usually get away with punishing silly lag. Marth still has tons of range, but the way he has to abuse it now needs to catch up.

Marth should time his moves to punish the moves of others since they always win (see: disjointed).

u should discuss falco dittos

Jump over the opposing Falco's <attack> and dair it. Repeat indefinitely. Acquire currency.

LOL M2K do you edgecamp with every character?

Yes. Even Roy. I'm not kidding.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Lol @ squirtle

Do you end up seeing this as a game of patience then? If two players who believed as you did played, it would be very....difficult to get one to commit, right? What then?

What if the other Falco Dairs? Anyway is it really a good idea to simplify so much of this game into base strategies like that? I feel like even at the fundamental level things are more complex to conceptualize than that.

 

[Deleted member]

smash is only a game of patience where it is rewarding to be so. for example, marth vs falcon is an extremely debatable match for either side, but generally whichever character approaches first has the disadvantage since falcon and marth suffer equally difficult circumstances against good defenses.

it is difficult to get one to commit, and it becomes necessary to "guess" based on the current metagame and trends that go with it. This is why my B category has value. For example, sheik backthrows a fox at the edge of the stage. Sheik can respond with run off 2nd jump nair, throw needles, or anticipate something else reacting to the fox. however, sheik has no "solid" answers to fox's recovery despite how good her edge guarding really is. the only reason you would side with backthrow at the edge over something else is that sheik has no other guaranteed options from choosing a different option, and that fox is in a poor position regardless, still leaning to the prior A category tactics. There is nothing wrong with "guessing" so long as you are able to maintain an advantageous position. it is where you make a decision that allows the other player to make a comeback that I am advocating to remove from your arsenal completely. do not give your opponent a chance to come back or they often will.

you will find that by eliminating these "bad" plays from your game, your play often becomes more linear. there is nothing wrong with that so long as you continue to win. so long as you only have one option, so long as your opponent has effectively zero, you still win in that instance. in this way, the game often simplifies itself and is not an active decision of the player, much to the advantage of the smarter player. when available, shutting down your opponent completely is always the best possible strategy since it is the only guaranteed way to assure victory.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QB4W3GaxJk0

sign on aim. we talk more.

 

[DtJ SmithZzz]

censor dodging imo

 

[Cactuar]

I think that, in order for Marth to be more successful these days, that he should simply change up his timings for his moves so that they simply can't be predicted and punished. It can give people the sense that Marth is more punishable than he really is simply because they usually get away with punishing silly lag. Marth still has tons of range, but the way he has to abuse it now needs to catch up.

Marth should never offer a move to be challenged since he will get timing ***** as you described. marth is better off waiting for a move to challenge him and then beating it.

I've discussed this with PP kinda briefly, but I guess I'll start to flesh out the idea here, even though its all just personal bull**** to cement my own playstyle.

As the metagame pushes closer towards consistent high level tech skill combined with intelligent usage, we are going to see the further evolution of a very basic spectrum of play: Aggressive vs Defensive.

From my point of view, aggressors have an innate advantage over defensive players because their objective is to make the defensive player play against (the aggressor and the defensive player's reactions). Aggressive players tend to get inside and force the defender to play a game of odds while under pressure to make a choice. Aggressors also have the advantage of clean observation, which is just being able to see repeatedly how the opponent is reacting to their pressure. Defenders also observe these things, but have to do it through the veil of that pressure.

Just to give a situational idea of why I feel aggressors have the advantage:

Aggressive Fox vs Defensive Marth (only because I'm comfortable with those two characters)

Both players are at neutral

Fox moves in and barely breaks the neutral threshold*

Marth can: (Fsmash, Dash Grab, Shield, DD, CC, sh fair while drifting back, full jump something, ftilt, etc)
Fox can: Do anything.
BUT: At straight neutral, all of these reactions are lagged by reaction speed. (Say 200 milliseconds. Average person is around 215 I think. This comes out to 12 frames. Yes, a 12 frame disadvantage.)

So, Fox is dashing straight in with a 12 frame advantage, with the option to dash dance back out of range. For me, this removes any desire to use fsmash. At this point, most Marth players will DD or shield, but realistically:

Marth can: (Shield, DD, CC, sh fair while drifting back, counter maybe?, ftilt, stand and react, etc)
Fox can still: Do anything.

What did Fox do to remove options from Marth? Next to nothing.
---------------------------------------------------------

(More to be added later. Just posting this much for now, as I'm feeling kinda sick and I'm at work lol. There are obviously a lot of factors to go through and I'm totally not up to it right now, but I hope you get a starting idea of what I mean.)

---------------------------------------------------------


(*For the purpose of this situational thingy, the neutral I'm using for Fox is slightly out of Marth's fsmash tipper range/dash grab range, and Marth's is slightly out of dash sh nairdair/dash shine or grab range.

In reality, my neutral for Fox is (comfortable reaction distance to Marth's fsmash tipper range/dash grab range), while my neutral for Marth is (comfortable reaction distance to Fox's dash sh nairdair/dash shine or grab range). The overall neutral zone is the larger of the two. Using this reaction distane in combination with the standard neutral range creates a buffer, allowing you to reduce the advantage/disadvantage of reaction speed related stuff. Neutrals change dependent on stage layout, but this is just a rough idea of how I view neutral.

Time spent outside of neutral is time spent ****ing around on the stage or camping until neutral is forced.)


Again, in my opinion, defensive players generally have the odds against them, but not really by that much, and the odds shift slightly dependent on character.

This also has to be looked at with consideration for your character. Marth vs Fox/Falco, Marth should really be played as a defensive character. Marth is a bad offensive character because of what Prof said earlier in that he should never throw a move out unless he is beating something else. His offensive game lies largely around his movement abilities, but vs Falco, thats largely shut down, and Fox is faster and can lasercamp the **** out of him, forcing him to play an uncomfortable offensive game.

~Good players/characters can shift almost completely along the spectrum. Bad characters/players generally stay in a small range on the spectrum.

~Punishment game in consideration of how many chances you get at neutral.

~Summary on why Marth is falling behind, including gems such as "He doesn't benefit from the reaction speed advantage as much as other characters because his moves are slow as ****".

~How it all ties in to removing as many options from your opponent, while keeping as many open as possible for yourself.

---------------------------------------------------------

Sorry, I'm just posting this for now as an incomplete thought. I'm tired and kinda sick right now. You can get an idea of how I piece together theory from this though lolol. It's all out of order and barebones and ****.

~ denotes an idea that needs to be completed.
---------------------------------------------------------

 

[Bl@ckChris]

this thread just got serious.

*reads* *understands* *profits*

 

[FoxLisk]

....uhh

...all I play against are Peach's and I main Marth

...so I know that match-up

and yea dash attack is good in the match-up for Peach

but it doesn't really beat out Marth's fair

but you're terrible so why should we take your word for anything

 

[justice]

（ﾉ￣ー￣）┳┳



























（ノ￣＾￣）ノ ⌒┫ Nah I'm out

Hilarious Smith.

 

[Rubyiris]

@umbreon: fair has vulnerabilities that dash attack will always beat. how is dash attack not in the a category?

its like you're just trying to disagree with me because you think im just another stupid falco.

 

[Cactuar]

I'm not trying to disagree with you and I think you're just another stupid falco.

<3

 

[Deleted member]

@umbreon: fair has vulnerabilities that dash attack will always beat. how is dash attack not in the a category?

let's assume for the sake of argument that peach's dash attack always beats marth fair. marth's fair still ruins peach on the merit that for her to be effective vs marth, she basically has to stay grounded at all times. no character has business being defensive in the air in this game, and any aggressive aerial usage is nullified by marth fair and thus still ruins her air game completely. as soon as she is grounded, she's already at a massive disadvantage because marth's DD/shield game exists.

marth pretty much never wants to land in an aerial anyway unless it's guaranteed that there can be no negative consequences (we're talking SH upair under a platform, ledge hop dair on landing lag, or continuation of a combo, etc). the idea isn't that "fair beats her entire character" in the literal sense but more that she can't really do anything about the fair so long as you're using it correctly. without an air game and forced to fight a ground game vs marth's ground game is a truly hopeless battle for peach and thus shuts down her entire character.

marth's fair is strictly for air to air purposes, never air to ground. sheik will run in and shield grab it, peach will dash attack it, fox will DD grab the landing lag, etc. as far as i know, the only character with an answer to marth's fair when used correctly is jigglypuff's bair.

edit:

I'm not trying to disagree with you and I think you're just another stupid falco.

<3

Don't hate on him if he's sincerely trying to understand and utilize a concept. Reward intelligence and punish ignorance accordingly.

 

[Dark Hart]

but you're terrible so why should we take your word for anything

I'm the worst

 

[Rubyiris]

I'm not trying to disagree with you and I think you're just another stupid falco.

<3

i'm not a stupid falco though. I actually know what I'm doing/talking about. =\

 

[Deleted member]

i'm not a stupid falco though. I actually know what I'm doing/talking about. =\

your videos suggest otherwise. that's okay, so long as you're sincerely willing to learn, you can never stay bad. unless you have bad learning habits. **** it, that's like all of smashboards.

/nvm.

 

[Rubyiris]

let's assume for the sake of argument that peach's dash attack always beats marth fair. marth's fair still ruins peach on the merit that for her to be effective vs marth, she basically has to stay grounded at all times. no character has business being defensive in the air in this game, and any aggressive aerial usage is nullified by marth fair and thus still ruins her air game completely. as soon as she is grounded, she's already at a massive disadvantage because marth's DD/shield game exists.

marth pretty much never wants to land in an aerial anyway unless it's guaranteed that there can be no negative consequences (we're talking SH upair under a platform, ledge hop dair on landing lag, or continuation of a combo, etc). the idea isn't that "fair beats her entire character" in the literal sense but more that she can't really do anything about the fair so long as you're using it correctly. without an air game and forced to fight a ground game vs marth's ground game is a truly hopeless battle for peach and thus shuts down her entire character.

marth's fair is strictly for air to air purposes, never air to ground. sheik will run in and shield grab it, peach will dash attack it, fox will DD grab the landing lag, etc. as far as i know, the only character with an answer to marth's fair when used correctly is jigglypuff's bair.

edit:



Don't hate on him if he's sincerely trying to understand and utilize a concept. Reward intelligence and punish ignorance accordingly.

I agree with this, but this is how I view things:

That's pretty much how peach has to deal with Marth; Her mediocre ground game. Peach does fairly well versus Marth when she manages to get within his space. Sure, it's difficult, and at perfect play, should never happen, but we're humans and mistakes will happen, and at some point, Peach will get in on Marth.

Many of Marth's moves either have enough wind up, or cool down for Peach to exploit at some point. No Marth main currently has the patience to play a safe, tight spacing game without falter. Turnips and her dash attack are good tools for limiting Marth's options, and starting things up. If she's able to get any sort of launcher on Marth, she's able to get things going, since Marth has problems with characters underneath him.

 

[Cactuar]

Relaaaax, I'm just kidding. I've actually never watched videos of you.

 

[Rubyiris]

your videos suggest otherwise. that's okay, so long as you're sincerely willing to learn, you can never stay bad. unless you have bad learning habits. **** it, that's like all of smashboards.

/nvm.

I have bad learning habits, but I'm working on fixing those habits. I'm always looking to learn and better myself.

 

[Deleted member]

I agree with this, but this is how I view things:

That's pretty much how peach has to deal with Marth; Her mediocre ground game. Peach does fairly well versus Marth when she manages to get within his space. Sure, it's difficult, and at perfect play, should never happen, but we're humans and mistakes will happen, and at some point, Peach will get in on Marth.

Many of Marth's moves either have enough wind up, or cool down for Peach to exploit at some point. No Marth main currently has the patience to play a safe, tight spacing game without falter. Turnips and her dash attack are good tools for limiting Marth's options, and starting things up. If she's able to get any sort of launcher on Marth, she's able to get things going, since Marth has problems with characters underneath him.

You're right, which is why I'm telling everyone in this thread to do what the opposing character can not deal with over and over. If that means that the opposing character cannot deal with patience, you know what tools you must use. This is the only guaranteed way in smash to secure a win. So long as the opponent still has the means to beat you, they still have the capacity to win.

"Do not give your opponents a chance to outplay you or they often will."

edit: I'm glad we're starting this theory on marth despite this being a falco thread. marth is so black-and-white that his best decisions are often clear cut. thankfully, this theory translates over well to every other "good" character so much so that it starts to define how "good" a character is.

if you guys want to see the pinnacle of "I can't do anything about this" it might be worth it for some of you to go look at the Metaknight ban arguments with Brawl.

 

[DJRome]

cactuar is a dix, making fun of scrubs since event 52

 

[Rubyiris]

You're right, which is why I'm telling everyone in this thread to do what the opposing character can not deal with over and over. If that means that the opposing character cannot deal with patience, you know what tools you must use. This is the only guaranteed way in smash to secure a win. So long as the opponent still has the means to beat you, they still have the capacity to win.

"Do not give your opponents a chance to outplay you or they often will."

This mindset is part of the reason why I used to argue that playing Brawl, and translating the patience you're forced to learn from that to Melee is/was a good thing.

Too bad nobody really believed me, lol.

 

[Deleted member]

This mindset is part of the reason why I used to argue that playing Brawl, and translating the patience you're forced to learn from that to Melee is/was a good thing.

Too bad nobody really believed me, lol.

Honestly it is better to learn these fundamentals in Melee since they are so mechanically different that it's hard to translate them between games.

 

[Cactuar]

I'm just reminded of the advice you gave someone about playing against me. Something like "The only way to beat Cactuar is to straight out-play him."