PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Rubyiris]

cactuar is a dix, making fun of scrubs since event 52

I'm pretty far removed from a "scrub."

:\

Honestly it is better to learn these fundamentals in Melee since they are so mechanically different that it's hard to translate them between games.

The thing about Melee is that it's difficult to resist the temptation of pushing lots of buttons very quickly.

 

[DJRome]

look man, bracket in a national or scrub

 

[Niko45]

Marth is passive aggressive. If Fox runs away laser camping Marth gets himself into that range Cactuar talks about all the time where he's threatening the Fox but can still react to the Fox's reaction to the threat of Marth's range.

So you like run up WD in place right at the edge of fox's sh nair range and then DD grab him and then the rest is history.

It's hard for me to say what's better as far as being aggressive or defensive in that instance because I guess Marth is initiating the aggression but really only to draw a reaction and then react to that.

I don't really understand the idea that Marth just needs to be campy vs Peach because if you actually just sit there and let Peach pull turnips she has some completely legitimate approaches on Marth with turnips, so I feel like this same passive aggressive game must be maintained in that you don't give her room to pull turnips and approach you freely but you also aren't just throwing yourself into her or anything.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

Yeah ruby remember, you said sion was a scrub and he makes bracket in nationals...you gotta consider yourself lower than him lol

 

[Deleted member]

I'm just reminded of the advice you gave someone about playing against me. Something like "The only way to beat Cactuar is to straight out-play him."

I used to pick peach vs your fox and to attack your attacks. you tended to play in such a way that strongly relied on your attacks winning a priority contest.

not so sure I'd want to try that now though lol.

niko: you can punish peach for pulling turnips.

 

[Rubyiris]

look man, bracket in a national or scrub

I made it to bracket at DGDTJ. Sup.

Also; A scrub is someone who puts arbitrary limits on themselves, not someone who isn't good.

Yeah ruby remember, you said sion was a scrub and he makes bracket in nationals...you gotta consider yourself lower than him lol

I called him bad, and that I dislike how he plays. I never called him a scrub. Big difference between the two.

To put this into perspective: V3ctorman and Axe are two very good scrubs. They put limits on themselves because some of the better options are ugly looking, and choose to take less optimal routes 'cause they're more flashy, or personally satisfying.

Mango is a scrub because he choses to play characters whom he's significantly weaker with in comparison to his better players. He's putting limits on himself because he wants a challenge.

I think these are very good examples of amazing players, who also happen to be scrubs.

 

[Dr Peepee]

smash is only a game of patience where it is rewarding to be so. for example, marth vs falcon is an extremely debatable match for either side, but generally whichever character approaches first has the disadvantage since falcon and marth suffer equally difficult circumstances against good defenses.

it is difficult to get one to commit, and it becomes necessary to "guess" based on the current metagame and trends that go with it. This is why my B category has value. For example, sheik backthrows a fox at the edge of the stage. Sheik can respond with run off 2nd jump nair, throw needles, or anticipate something else reacting to the fox. however, sheik has no "solid" answers to fox's recovery despite how good her edge guarding really is. the only reason you would side with backthrow at the edge over something else is that sheik has no other guaranteed options from choosing a different option, and that fox is in a poor position regardless, still leaning to the prior A category tactics. There is nothing wrong with "guessing" so long as you are able to maintain an advantageous position. it is where you make a decision that allows the other player to make a comeback that I am advocating to remove from your arsenal completely. do not give your opponent a chance to come back or they often will.

you will find that by eliminating these "bad" plays from your game, your play often becomes more linear. there is nothing wrong with that so long as you continue to win. so long as you only have one option, so long as your opponent has effectively zero, you still win in that instance. in this way, the game often simplifies itself and is not an active decision of the player, much to the advantage of the smarter player. when available, shutting down your opponent completely is always the best possible strategy since it is the only guaranteed way to assure victory.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QB4W3GaxJk0

sign on aim. we talk more.

Guessing but safe guessing? I've considered this before and liked the idea very much. So then, do you feel as though the MLG era of players understood and abused this concept more than modern players?

Also I'll hit you up on aim today. You messaged me when I was half-asleep last night lol. =p

Honestly it is better to learn these fundamentals in Melee since they are so mechanically different that it's hard to translate them between games.

I learned lots of patience and observation skills in Melee from playing Brawl, but yes the mechanics make the actual carrying-over of those skills hard.




I also really like the things Cactuar says and think that's definitely a legitimate way to view the game. I'm excited to see you finish up your thoughts. =)

 

[Bl@ckChris]

that's your definition of scrub?

...?

?

 

[Palpi]

I made it to bracket at DGDTJ. Sup.

Also; A scrub is someone who puts arbitrary limits on themselves, not someone who isn't good.



I called him bad, and that I dislike how he plays. I never called him a scrub. Big difference between the two.

To put this into perspective: V3ctorman and Axe are two very good scrubs. They put limits on themselves because some of the better options are ugly looking, and choose to take less optimal routes 'cause they're more flashy, or personally satisfying.

Mango is a scrub because he choses to play characters whom he's significantly weaker with in comparison to his better players. He's putting limits on himself because he wants a challenge.

I think these are very good examples of amazing players, who also happen to be scrubs.

But sion isn't bad...or a scrub.

@Blackchris ...I am on the same boat with you...that definition was pretty dumb.

 

[Rubyiris]

that's your definition of scrub?

...?

?

Introducing...the Scrub

The derogatory term “scrub” means several different things. One definition is someone (especially a game player) who is not good at something (especially a game). By this definition, we all start out as scrubs, and there is certainly no shame in that. I mean the term differently, though. A scrub is a player who is handicapped by self-imposed rules that the game knows nothing about. A scrub does not play to win.

Source: http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html

Of course the difference here is that the players I mentioned do indeed play to win, so this doesn't entirely reflect their mindset, but the self-imposed rules still applies.

Saying the definition is dumb is basically saying David Sirlin is dumb.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

so you're saying that axe doesn't play to win?

...?

?

edit: given your statement, none/very few of us are playing 'to win' because we're not all aware and constantly use the tactics that oak and cactuar are explaining the value of.

 

[Rubyiris]

Blackchris; Please read my post carefully. Don't just pick and chose select parts of the post or you'll miss the point and subsequently make yourself look stupid.

 

[DJRome]

oh come on gsg2 was top 48 of 108. i mean something meaningful like top 32 in 150+

i mean, is it that big of a deal to be a scrub? just keep practicing until you aren't. otherwise ur just fooling urself

i won a tourney with only me!

 

[Palpi]

Anyone who doesn't play the best character in the game is a scrub?

Obviously the best character in a game, has the best chance to win...therefore not picking that character handicaps yourself and if you handicap yourself, you are a scrub.

log!c

 

[Rubyiris]

oh come on gsg2 was top 48 of 108. i mean something meaningful like top 32 in 150+

i mean, is it that big of a deal to be a scrub? just keep practicing until you aren't. otherwise ur just fooling urself

i won a tourney with only me!

Because according to sirlin's article I'm not a scrub in either definition used?

I understand that you dislike me for whatever reason, but that doesn't change the fact that I'm not a scrub.

 

[Rubyiris]

Anyone who doesn't play the best character in the game is a scrub?

One could argue that.

 

[Palpi]

Well, then YOU ARE A SCRUB!

 

[Rubyiris]

Well, then YOU ARE A SCRUB!

People are arguing that Falco is the best character in the game. I also secondary Fox.

Care to refute this?

 

[Bl@ckChris]

i read your post. you're saying that because they choose the flashy option, they lose the right to say that they are playing to win, due to their rejection of the "right" option. i figure as long as they are searching for their own "right" option, and are on the hunt to win with their own choices, that such a case can not be made for their scrubness.

it's not like theyre rejecting edgeguarding cuz its cheep hurr durr. they just may not enjoy spamming bair against peach, and would rather try to combo/approach. if approaching with marth because its not the best option makes you a scrub, then quite a few modern marths are scrubs, i guess....including m2k, as we've mentioned his admitted impatience in such matchups.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Is this really necessary <.<

 

[DJRome]

lol it has nothing to do with my preference for you. the fact that most of us are scrubs by my definition, and if you take offense to that lol, is inevitable. clearly scrub connotes something negative inside of you but for me it's simply an indication of skill level that is clearly not in contention for top spots in a national. like why would a top player give u any special attention as a scrub unless they knew you?

 

[Bl@ckChris]

good point pp.

so lets all advance, take advantage of the tactics at hand, and go to pound 5 and learn some things, and get better as a community.

 

[Rubyiris]

i read your post. you're saying that because they choose the flashy option, they lose the right to say that they are playing to win, due to their rejection of the "right" option. i figure as long as they are searching for their own "right" option, and are on the hunt to win with their own choices, that such a case can not be made for their scrubness.

it's not like theyre rejecting edgeguarding cuz its cheep hurr durr. they just may not enjoy spamming bair against peach, and would rather try to combo/approach. if approaching with marth because its not the best option makes you a scrub, then quite a few modern marths are scrubs, i guess....including m2k, as we've mentioned his admitted impatience in such matchups.

You obviously didn't read my post, then:

Introducing...the Scrub

The derogatory term “scrub” means several different things. One definition is someone (especially a game player) who is not good at something (especially a game). By this definition, we all start out as scrubs, and there is certainly no shame in that. I mean the term differently, though. A scrub is a player who is handicapped by self-imposed rules that the game knows nothing about. A scrub does not play to win.

Source: http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html

Of course the difference here is that the players I mentioned do indeed play to win, so this doesn't entirely reflect their mindset, but the self-imposed rules still applies.

Saying the definition is dumb is basically saying David Sirlin is dumb.

Please pay attention to the second bolded section. You obviously didn't see this part of the post.

 

[Rubyiris]

lol it has nothing to do with my preference for you. the fact that most of us are scrubs by my definition, and if you take offense to that lol, is inevitable. clearly scrub connotes something negative inside of you but for me it's simply an indication of skill level that is clearly not in contention for top spots in a national. like why would a top player give u any special attention as a scrub unless they knew you?

Top players should give anybody who's sincerely looking to improve attention, imo.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

ok so...you agree with me? except you think the fact that they have an alternative playstyle in itself makes them a scrub.

anyway, i'm waiting for more insight from cactuar/oak/peepee. it's why i'm subscribed to this thread.

 

[bossa nova ♪]

hmmmm.... limit themselves huh?


you're the biggest scrub i see on smashboards if that's the case..... terrible mentality

 

[Rubyiris]

hmmmm.... limit themselves huh?


you're the biggest scrub i see on smashboards if that's the case..... terrible mentality

If I'm the biggest scrub on smashboards, then Sirlin's the biggest scrub in the entire fighting game community, by that logic.

Also remember that I play with V3ctorman and Axe on a fairly regular basis. I know them far better than some randy on SWF.

 

[Rubyiris]

ok so...you agree with me? except you think the fact that they have an alternative playstyle in itself makes them a scrub.

anyway, i'm waiting for more insight from cactuar/oak/peepee. it's why i'm subscribed to this thread.

their playstyle is scrubbish. You're welcome to ask them yourself. Don't be surprised if you show them my posts and they agree with me.

 

[DJRome]

i smell a ron vs rubynegger mm

 

[Bl@ckChris]

if you're good, you're good.

if you're not good, then get better.

applying labels to such things is unimportant. gotta say i agree with DJ on this one.

so oak, i see you're still in here: what would you say is the most important thing on ACTUALLY improving? is it simply learning which options are really safe, and learning when/how to apply those true options during matches?

edit: ron would tap.

 

[Mogwai]

I will start handing out infractions for derailing useful discussion between players who know what they're talking about with

Rubyiris Related Drama 67: This Time, It's Even More Personal (For no apparent reason)

I'm terribly uninterested in seeing this tired and worthless string of posts yet again and would hate to see a worthwhile discussion die because of it. If any of you feel so compelled, please make a separate thread about what a scrub is.

 

[DJRome]

id like to discuss a question i have for negger pp

can i stay at yo house thursday night?

 

[#HBC | Mac]

damn

mogwai laying down the law

 

[Dr Peepee]

Should be cool bro

I'll get back to you on it though.

Edit: <3 Mogwai

 

[Rubyiris]

I'd tap Ron all dai.

 

[Dark Hart]

i doubt it

 

[DJRome]

yeah, text me or sth, my phone erased the contacts again

 

[Rubyiris]

Ron's welcome to give me his money at G2 if he goes.

You too, Dark Hart.

 

[DJRome]

well maybe u should deposit some at g6. ive seen ur falco and ive seen his falco and they can mm

 

[Rubyiris]

What's g6?