PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Rubyiris]

w/e.

Vids will be up sometime this next day or so.

People are encouraged to watch them and pick them apart because I'm ****ing sick and tired of not getting any better.

Above average doesn't cut it for me.

 

[booshk]

You don't elaborate because you're far too ****ty to even understand what you're saying.

he seems to be far better than you after watching your videos. : )
i don't know why you think you're amazing, you really have no right. i haven't heard of you either, what gives you the automatic assumption of yourself being better of players just YOU haven't heard of?

drpp, lovage, bob$ giving you the same advice sion gave. why don't you use your logic a bit here who knows though, they could be wrong though i guess

before you say anything about me, i didn't claim myself better than someone i have not even played.

i don't even play falco, so i'm outta here : D
keep doochin', friend.

 

[Rubyiris]

he seems to be far better than you after watching your videos. : )
i don't know why you think you're amazing, you really have no right. i haven't heard of you either, what gives you the automatic assumption of yourself being better of players just YOU haven't heard of?

drpp, lovage, bob$ giving you the same advice sion gave. why don't you use your logic a bit here who knows though, they could be wrong though i guess

before you say anything about me, i didn't claim myself better than someone i have not even played.

i don't even play falco, so i'm outta here : D
keep doochin', friend.

I've never once said I was an amazing player. All I stated is that I'm on a level higher than the average ****ty falco player who frequents the boards.

I know more, and I have far more experience than most of the players who joined in 07 or later, considering I've been playing with far better players than most people since 05, and live in arguably the 3rd, or 4th best regional zone for melee.

I've been around the block to the point where If I haven't heard of someone, it's because they aren't making a name for themselves. If they were good to the point of being known, I'd know them.

If they aren't a known player I'd be willing to bet that they're probably relatively close to my skill level if they're a decent player, or just another ****ty swf member who thinks puff is god-tier and wobbling is stupid.

 

[ChivalRuse]

so drpp and i are wrong? i must be a terrible falco player =\

if you were good i'd have heard of you.

Sion is mad ****, dude.

 

[V3ctorMan]

Oh wow, just saw these multiple post... and yes I agree

Sion = pretty **** ****, I used to watch some of his videos...wonder why I stopped?

oh Yeah. lol Yoshi! <333333333333

 

[Falcinho]

The reason why bair is more likely to hit than utilt in this situation is that bair hits higher and it also has more horizontal range because you can move while you do it (like Lovage posted) so bair will hit Falcons who try to outspace your shine/utilt with a stomp in the startup of the stomp.

I'm pretty sure it'll work if you cross up their shield with strong dair/nair, weak PAL dair sucks but maybe NTSCs weak dair still does enough shieldstun.

PS: If you still don't buy it watch some of the first sets on Waffles youtube-channel between Mango's Fox and SilentSpectre,

 

[Falcinho]

The reason why bair is more likely to hit than utilt in this situation is that bair hits higher and it also has more horizontal range because you can move while you do it (like Lovage posted) so bair will hit Falcons who try to outspace your shine/utilt with a stomp in the startup of the stomp.

I'm pretty sure it'll work if you cross up their shield with strong dair/nair, weak PAL dair sucks but maybe NTSCs weak dair still does enough shieldstun.

PS: If you still don't buy it watch some of the first sets on Waffles youtube-channel between Mango's Fox and SilentSpectre,

 

[Dr Peepee]

Even though Bair is slower, I've found that you can typically get the Bair off before stomp comes out(very slow move you can even kinda react to with Bair I'd bet) when you cross up Falcon just because you'll hit right into him where the Utilt might just be out of range.

I can understand your skepticism, but I urge you to test it on GG7 next time and see for yourself.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

how can you get the bair out in time if utilt isn't fast enough?

I'll stop being a douche when people smarten the **** up.

utilt IS fast enough. The only reason dair oos beats it (RARELY) is cuz the falcon is using some weird spacing so that the utilt misses while the dair can still connect.

If you bair, you cover a wider area/space. So that doesn't miss.

stop being a scrub/****

 

[Dr Peepee]

Falcon CAN beat the Utilt with Dair on purpose a lot more frequently than people think. SS was doing it to me at Pound 4 pretty consistently. Ruby isn't crazy lol.

I'll explain it more later. I have to get going, sorry.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Fdr32igxHU#t=1m52s

 

[ArcNatural]

utilt IS fast enough. The only reason dair oos beats it (RARELY) is cuz the falcon is using some weird spacing so that the utilt misses while the dair can still connect.

If you bair, you cover a wider area/space. So that doesn't miss.

stop being a scrub/****

I wrote a huge post summarizing some things for you Ruby and I got 501'd so I'll try again.

Like Yedi says above that's the reason uptilt loses. If your getting dair'd before your uptilt even comes out then you have other issues to address (such as properly fastfalling/l-cancelng). I'm pretty sure even fastfalling from the top of Falcon's shield (such as double jump dairing on top of them) you can still l-cancel uptilt before the dair comes out if they misspace.

It's easy enough if your put yourself in Falcon's perspective, I regularly space my dairs on shields on uptilt spammers to either crossup (So that I dair the other side of Falco instead of where the uptilt is) or I just space to hit the uptilt rather than Falco's body. So bair both, should give you more range and a longer hitbox to cover this option.

As for the raptor boost. Unless it's from a tech chase or some sort of counter (such as dair shield, raptor boost to avoid grab or raptor boosting to avoid a tech chase). You should rarely get hit with raptor boost. Two main reasons for getting hit with raptor boost otherwise are:

1. Your not grounded, and your aerial approaches/retreats are predictable.

2. Your doing stuff you want to do instead of reacting to raptor boost when your grounded.

I can regularly jab/spotdodge/shield/roll/runout/jump on reaction to raptor boosts unless they are incredibly close to me (in which case I would generally be reacting to any forward movement at all). It's not 100% and there are lapses in concentration/spacing/judgement. But on the whole it's pretty accurate. Especially if your further than a wavedash spacing away, if you can't react to raptor boost at that distance and actually hit them out of it then you need to work on that.

Most successful raptor boosts are from a form of bait and prediction. Either by inducing hitlag/baiting space and raptor boosting your counter, or by predicting retreats/tech chases.

You need to figure out when you commonly get raptor boosted and judge what you need to work on accordingly.

Everyone occasionally gets caught with long raptor boosts or stupid raptor boosts. But on the whole the situation above is where the problems usually lie.

As for nairs. It's a strong move for Falcon there is no guaranteed stop for it obviously. At low % you can try to mess up their spacing and cc shine them. Or shine oos. If you think they are going to nair over laser you can try retreating high lasers (ie not fastfalled till after the laser).

Another important distinction is if you go to approach with SHL -> shffl and they shield the laser and nair over your aerial, you need to just approach SHL -> standing SHL or just wait and counter the expected roll/nair.

Nair is a good move for Falcon if they keep it well spaced and they get a lot of opportunities from it. It should be expected that if they are competent players that they will hit you with it without being punished regularly just like you should be able to pillar combo them if you get a shine off.

I hope some of this helps.

Edit: DR. PP Sup. I don't think people are complaining about Ruby saying uptilt gets hit with dair, just that he seems to think that bair won't work simply because uptilt is faster without taking into consideration range/hitbox duration and what the Falcon would be doing if he expects an uptilt coming.

 

[JPOBS]

Arc, PP, and Sion have pretty much covered why bair hits but uptilt might not. Mostly it has to do with hitbox duration and range being better on bair dispite being slower

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Fdr32igxHU#t=1m52s

specifically for this its easy to see what happens.
God-is-my-rock crosses up and goes a fair distance beyond scar's sheild and immediately uptilts.
Scar jumps out and starts DI'ing towards falcos body.
The uptilt starts and finishes before scar reaches its hitbox, and then the dair lands, and falco gets da business

ways to fix this were:
1. dont overshoot so far past falcons sheild. immediate uptilts work best if you're RIGHT behind falcon
2. Just delay the uptilt a spit second longer, scar would have jumped right into it.

Dair is slow as ****. just dont get outspcaed/outtimed.
analyzing the situation is important. Uptilt isnt going to Auto-hit the falcon. But when i said earlier that Falcon dair doesnt beat uptilt, i meant that assuming the too moves were used at the same time. dair is too slow.

 

[Niko45]

Arc did cover it pretty well, but my only concern is how famous is Arc? I'm not sure Arc is quite that famous, so if someone extremely famous could just re-state Arc's points, that would be great.

 

[ArcNatural]

Arc did cover it pretty well, but my only concern is how famous is Arc? I'm not sure Arc is quite that famous, so if someone extremely famous could just re-state Arc's points, that would be great.

I taught Dr. PP how to beat puff! (somewhat exaggerated would have to ask him how much he actually used/recalled) But we had a good discussion on it in aim before he beat Hungrybox. Nevertheless, I can just force someone to repeat what I said if I must...

 

[AvengerAngel]

LMAO @ Niko45 xD

I think JPOBS is completely right. And I recommend crossing Falcon's shield with Nair rather than Dair: you get more range and less landing lag. Raaaaaaaaape 8))

 

[Dr Peepee]

I taught Dr. PP how to beat puff! (somewhat exaggerated would have to ask him how much he actually used/recalled) But we had a good discussion on it in aim before he beat Hungrybox. Nevertheless, I can just force someone to repeat what I said if I must...

=)

We need to talk about some more before Apex. <3

 

[BigD!!!]

arcnatural: if you get 501'd, hit back, then click in the text box and hit ctrl+z, it brings everything back for me

pp, when falcons beat utilt with stomp out of shield, are they getting you before the utilt or are they spacing it somehow?

rubyiris, bair works, we've all done it a million times, youre not good at all and you always act like you are

 

[Niko45]

I taught Dr. PP how to beat puff! (somewhat exaggerated would have to ask him how much he actually used/recalled) But we had a good discussion on it in aim before he beat Hungrybox. Nevertheless, I can just force someone to repeat what I said if I must...

I was joking of course. Can't wait to play you. I could use some puff advice too btw.

 

[Dr Peepee]

arcnatural: if you get 501'd, hit back, then click in the text box and hit ctrl+z, it brings everything back for me

pp, when falcons beat utilt with stomp out of shield, are they getting you before the utilt or are they spacing it somehow?

rubyiris, bair works, we've all done it a million times, youre not good at all and you always act like you are

Oh yeah I've been meaning to explain this:

What SS was doing to me was starting the stomp OOS when I utilted, but not moving towards me. Since Stomp is so slow, you can wait until the Utilt ends to move over when the move comes out and hit Falco. This is something a lot of characters have been doing lately(moving after starting an aerial later in the jump to throw people off) and it's really interesting. Col bol's Fox did it to me at CEO, if anyone wants to check that out.

 

[leffen]

wow rubyiris, horrible, close minded, dickriding yourself and other players, close minded, self centered and anger problems? nice combo sir.

your "smash mind" must be reaaaally bad if you dont see how you can beat those moves, i mean you can beat raptor boosting with literally any option falco has, and there is probably no time where raptor boosting is totally safe unless its in a combo or tech chase/ read, esp since you have so many options against it.

i cba explaining too much but you can beat nair with fsmash, laser, nair , bair , fair , utilt, dash attack, ftilt , u smash , etc depending on spacing,
if your having problems then dont get read ( aka him sniping with it when he knows ur gonna retreat etc )and just **** him.
if hes dairing above your shine you failed, he could just have full jumped away or w/e, or just grab you since it is faster than avoiding the shine / utilt / w/e by dairing. ( i think dair hits on frame 14 or smth too lol ).

you must be really horrible at putting words down on paper if you really are as good as you think.

 

[unknown522]

This is a series of questions only for the best, most knowledgeable Falco players/mains. People who are mediocre, or not as good as me need not answer.

Question 1:

Versus Falcon:

Raptor Boost is my bane. I'm unable to figure out how to keep this either from outright beating everything I do, or trading with my aerials.

I try early nair: Raptor Boost beats it out.

I try late nair: The Falcon player recognizes I'm trying to delay my aerial and changes the timing, resulting in beating me out.

I try rising Dair: Raptor Boost usually trades.

I try late Dair: Same situation as above.

Laser: Unless I get like perfect ground lasers, it goes right through my laser, yet the laser is quite visibly going THROUGH Falcon's Body.

Versus Stop OOS:

I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong. If I shine, Falcon's dair pulls his legs up, resulting in him DODGING the shine.

If I utilt, Dair beats it out, or misses as he's rising, same situation above.

Versus Nair:

this move just beats everything I do except for high lasers.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

I raise these questions because I've been playing with GG7 and Vectorman alot. I noticed that in the exact same situations, vman would win the exchanges what I'm losing miserably. When I asked him what he's doing different, he pulls some **** and bull story about how he can't explain what he's doing differently.

Videos to come later. Probably Wednesday or Thursday.

I'm kinda surprised that those things are giving you trouble, but When the vids come up, then we'll definitely know what's wrong, but for now all I can say is:

- Your d-air will beat the raptor boost at any given time. It doesn't even matter if you do it early, or late.

- Low laser is good for stopping it

- I dunno why your n-air is losing. Maybe you're taking too long to FF it?

- you can shine through it. The timing isn't very hard

- if he's waiting for you to whiff aerials, it sometimes isn't a bad idea to empty jump and then shield. Or you can shoot a laser since they have the same landing lag.

- You can try baiting it with DDing, or empty jumps, or random wavelands (onto a platform, or not).

Vs Stomp OoS:

- You can cross up behind them, then hit them while they are starting their stomp with one of your aerials. Just don't try to n-air/d-air -> shine on their shield all the time and it will work.

- You can also just do one aerial on the shield, then wait and see what they do. It's always better to go behind them though. You can do the exact same thing with fox vs falcon.

- Alternatively, after an aerial on the shield, you can jump and shine to try and call his stomp. Even if it fails, you can jump out of your shine anyway (obviously), then waveland on a platform, or just jump to the top platform depending on the stage.

vs n-air:

- you can beat it out with a lot of moves, unless they can mange to get the super perfect spacing every time one it (though that's not really possible). You could just b-air/u-tilt/d-air through it anyway, even if they do space it well.

- You could also just CC it, then shine/grab/d-tilt/etc and **** him for it.

- High laser, then if you're close enough, you can actually combo off it with u-tilt/f-tilt/shine.

I play with GG7, an extremely good falcon main, and jetfour, another very good player, and Vectorman, a falco who's alot better than me on a regular basis, plus PP and Mogwai expressed that they too have been getting beaten out by stomp oos by aerial > crossup utilt.

if i was doing something wrong, i'm fairly certain they would have told me, or i would have figured it out by now. i'm not exactly dumb, and i'm not exactly bad at this game.

I'd like to think i'm fairly more knowledgeable about my character than most of SWF.

chill out man. These people are trying to help you (except for JPobs I guess), despite how you are acting towards them. You should be really thankful for them taking the time to give you advice. Everyone's piece of advice is valid. It depends on what you take of it.

if you were good i'd have heard of you.

because when i used to let people like you attempt to give me advice i'd get rung around in circles with ****ty ****ing advice by mediocre players who cannot for the life of them elaborate on simple ****ing subjects.

I'd rather just dickride good players and get advice that isn't ****ing awful, like what Mogwai posted.

sion is pretty **** good actually. He and the other players actually gave you good advice. You need to pick a good time to use each tactic.

I've never once said I was an amazing player. All I stated is that I'm on a level higher than the average ****ty falco player who frequents the boards.

I know more, and I have far more experience than most of the players who joined in 07 or later, considering I've been playing with far better players than most people since 05, and live in arguably the 3rd, or 4th best regional zone for melee.

I've been around the block to the point where If I haven't heard of someone, it's because they aren't making a name for themselves. If they were good to the point of being known, I'd know them.

If they aren't a known player I'd be willing to bet that they're probably relatively close to my skill level if they're a decent player, or just another ****ty swf member who thinks puff is god-tier and wobbling is stupid.

you should chill out man and also stop double/triple posting. Use the Edit button and quote people or something.

 

[leffen]

guys srsly, you can just do normal dair shine pressure, if he dairs you ( aka miss shine ) that means you ****ed up badly ( you do super early dair and dont space it at all ) since it takes around 15 frames before falcon can start avoiding shines with his dair animation and around 20 frames from shield before he hits you.

i dont get why you should utilt his shield tbh, he can up b it if you spam it and he can buffer jump etc too. >_>

 

[stingers]

lol wow ruby iris is such a ****

 

[BigD!!!]

ah ok i understand that pp, ive done that to falco a couple times but ive never been able to make it consistently work, most likely because most falcos i play mix bairs in often enough for me to not want to go for it

i also feel like the spacing of the utilt, as little as it can vary, actually makes a big difference with whether that is possible or not. the only reliable punish ive managed is wd forward out of shield then grab them after they utilt, but thats pretty difficult

anyway, long story short rubyiris, you shouldnt be getting daired before your utilt comes out, therefore the bair being a slower move is irrelevant because its still faster than falcons stomp.

nobody commented on what i said last time, but i swear to god if you just dash attack as soon as you hear the noise it tears through raptor boost every time

 

[KirbyKaze]

If you push buttons you should probably beat the Raptor Boost.

 

[Melomaniacal]

Honestly, as a low level player, the only time I get caught by a raptor boost is when it's part of a combo/tech chase, or I **** up bad.

 

[AvengerAngel]

If you push buttons you should probably beat the Raptor Boost.

Lol, tru stori xD


Btw, if the shine misses Falcon while he's jumping out of shield, you could hit him with a JC'd shine (it pretty much ***** Falcon), JC'd grab (I dunno) or an instant fade-out Nair/Dair (which is faster than Falcon's Dair). Can anyone confirm this? xp

 

[Rubyiris]

arcnatural: if you get 501'd, hit back, then click in the text box and hit ctrl+z, it brings everything back for me

pp, when falcons beat utilt with stomp out of shield, are they getting you before the utilt or are they spacing it somehow?

rubyiris, bair works, we've all done it a million times, youre not good at all and you always act like you are

I'd be willing to bet money I'm far better than the majority of the people of post on SWF.

@Arc, PP, Mogwai, and Unknown (to some extent)

At least someone can give cohesive advice. I'll take everything you said into consideration next time I play with GG7.

Also I'm going to give dash attacking raptor boost a try. I haven't considered that.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Falco vs Peach help:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbqt2kmvg80
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zWfs66MCvA

I feel like I have a relatively good understanding of the mu but my spacing sucks ****.

 

[Mogwai]

dash attack destroys raptor boost, but it's countering a bad move with a bad move, so I'm not a big fan... if you guess wrong on raptor boost and throw a dash attack out there, you'll get punished pretty hard. I dunno, even as I'm typing this though, I realize I'm being a hypocrite because I use dash attack a lot in the neutral position on hunches of moves it will beat, but I guess it just feels to me like a bad habit to me, even if it proves pretty effective sometimes.

 

[Rubyiris]

Dash attack is easily punished, but it has different uses than Nair. Dash attack has different properties, most beneficial is where it sends them when hit. It has different (sometimes better) followups than Nair does if you guess correctly.

 

[Rubyiris]

laggy internet double-post

 

[Mogwai]

the combo setups can be really good, but it mostly depends when in the dash attack you hit them.

the biggest advantage of dash attack IMO is that it comes out so much quicker due to not having to wait for jumping to get you airborne. it's the reason why dash attacking is good vs. predictible shffls, you can just get it out before their hitbox even comes. It also has really good priority, but the hitbox on Falco's dash attack isn't good enough for that to compete with a lot of aerials once they get their hitbox out.

 

[Mogwai]

the combo setups can be really good, but it mostly depends when in the dash attack you hit them.

the biggest advantage of dash attack IMO is that it comes out so much quicker due to not having to wait for jumping to get you airborne. it's the reason why dash attacking is good vs. predictible shffls, you can just get it out before their hitbox even comes. It also has really good priority, but the hitbox on Falco's dash attack isn't good enough for that to compete with a lot of aerials once they get their hitbox out.

 

[Rubyiris]

dash attack ***** characters like sheik. <3

 

[leffen]

ill write a longer post later, just gotta say that peach or that falco is no way above average (possibly above smashboards level, but most of those dont go to tourneys )) so get of your high horse.
That peach didnt really space well at all and didnt use any defensive options =/ ( im a little bit elitist i guess, since i have only faced very good peaches, including armada ).

ill write more later.

 

[JPOBS]

I'd be willing to bet money I'm far better than the majority of the people of post on SWF.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbqt2kmvg80
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zWfs66MCvA

I feel like I have a relatively good understanding of the mu but my spacing sucks ****.

i dont get it, watching your vids, you look exactly like every other run of the mill player on this forum, but you have this huge delusion of grandeur cuz you play with people who are actually good.

anyway, critique

You seem to have the gist of the matchup down well
The too biggest problems is see is that you dont combo her well, and she lives WAY too long.

by that I mean, i dont think you killed the peach below 160% the whole time, its tough to win if you dont kill much earlier. I suggest trying to to get Dtilt kills because its falco's earliest killer on most stages vs peach. bair and fsmash can be di'd forever. You never use dtilt, it can come in really handy. Also try to set up dair->dair spikes for relatively early kills when you can

as for comb'ing specifically in the FD match, you drop all your combos because you try to shine-> sh, DJ aerial (usually upair). Peach goes too high for sh->dj aerial to combo so u need to FJ asap if you're intending to combo her. Dropping your combos like this means you have to work a lot harder to build her damage.

another i notice is you often crossup her sheild with nair and try to shine, but you're often way out of shine range and eat a bair oos->dsmash. Just correct this problem cuz its really simple and unnecessary to get ***** for it.

Lastly, uptilt more. You never use it. stuff her approaches, combo with it, etc.
hope this helps.

 

[Sion]

lol jpobs

grandeur

and yeah, you're right about him looking like every other run of the mill player on this forum... or i'm just being mad bitter

 

[Rubyiris]

lol jpobs

grandeur

and yeah, you're right about looking like every other run of the mill player on this forum... or i'm just being mad bitter

from what i've seen, i'm far better.

 

[Sion]

far better than what?