PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[bossa nova ♪]

FH weak reverse bair to falling fair


shoutouts to ya boy

 

[Pachinkosam]

wait no PLEASE don't take me seriously.

your question was worded such that i don't actually know what you meant, which i thought was funny, so I made a joking reply to it.

please rephrase your question more explicitly so that I (or someone smarter than I) can give you a real answer.

look am just asking a question
stop joking around

 

[JPOBS]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=129732

I don't even...

LOL at mogwai in that thread saying falco < sheik and marth. Mogwai swears up and down these days that falco wins every matchup lol

I'm a bit late to the low tier discussion, but I want to chime in cause its such an interesting topic:

Its a damn shame that low tiers are so underrepresented in the community but...I play Marth, Bones plays Falco, KK plays Sheik...as much as we all want the low tiers to develop its not like we are DOING anything about it. It seems a bit ridiculous for me to even ask the community to be more diverse when I'm a tier ***** myself lol. At this point, we're lucky that our results are so diverse; it seems like there are only 3 or 4 people playing each of the mid/low tiers in the room at every national yet 1 or 2 for each always makes bracket (well, moreso for the mid tiers). The ratio isn't as forgiving for the top tiers; a fact that is very counterintuitive to the concept of a tier list in the first place. Pools are a graveyard of Fox, Falco, Marths, Falcons, and Sheiks lol.
.

But that's only because more people actually play those characters. The ratio is hella skewed, but if more people actually play low/mid tiers, then pools would be a graveyard for those characters too. Popular characters lose a lot in pools, but they also comprise the majority of bracket.

No nothing in smashboards history can compare to how ****ing terrible the marth boards are now.

Falcon boards circa 08-09 could give you a run for your money.

Even though Marth beats Jigglypuff, there is not a single Marth player who is currently capable of playing the match up as patiently as you have to. Even M2K has said that he's far too impatient to play the match up correctly. Because of this fact, it could be argued that even though Marth beats Jigglypuff on an objective level, Puff still wins in practice.

I HATE when people say this kind of thing. "X character wins/goes even with Y character, but no one in the whole community has been able to show it"

How do people even know a "proper" marth vs jigglypuff matchup is supposed to look like if its never been shown in tournament. This logic really does confuse me.

 

[Bones0]

But that's only because more people actually play those characters. The ratio is hella skewed, but if more people actually play low/mid tiers, then pools would be a graveyard for those characters too. Popular characters lose a lot in pools, but they also comprise the majority of bracket.

Crimson was just pointing out how interesting it is that we have hundreds of top tiers fighting through pools, and only a handful of mid tiers, but we frequently have mid tiers placing high due to players like Shroomed, Kage, and Axe. For even one Doc/Ganon/Pika main to be getting so deep in bracket when it seems like there's <20 of those mains who make it to R2 pools is certainly not something that should be expected (though I guess it could be argued that the lack of character familiarity helps boost their chances).

 

[Tee ay eye]

the problem with theory is that it generally over-simplifies some things (which helps for visualization, but needs to be refined) and does not always for various intangibles...

who cares what the matchup is anyway as long as it's doable for both players as long as they stop *****ing and play?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Those players could get just as far in bracket with a top tier

 

[JPOBS]

Crimson was just pointing out how interesting it is that we have hundreds of top tiers fighting through pools, and only a handful of mid tiers, but we frequently have mid tiers placing high due to players like Shroomed, Kage, and Axe. For even one Doc/Ganon/Pika main to be getting so deep in bracket when it seems like there's <20 of those mains who make it to R2 pools is certainly not something that should be expected (though I guess it could be argued that the lack of character familiarity helps boost their chances).

My point is that it's inconsequential what characters are used by players who get eliminated in pools. If more players happened to use pikachu, that wouldn't necessarily garauntee that more pikachus would make bracket on the whole.

But I agree character familiarity helps a ton.

Those players could get just as far in bracket with a top tier

Precisely.

 

[Bones0]

Okay, yeah, I get what you guys are saying.

the problem with theory is that it generally over-simplifies some things (which helps for visualization, but needs to be refined) and does not always for various intangibles...

who cares what the matchup is anyway as long as it's doable for both players as long as they stop *****ing and play?

Yeah, it's dumb how people feel entitled to john about a matchup they consider 55-45 anyway.

1. Tiers/matchups reflect the TOP LEVEL metagame. i.e. If you're not making bracket it's meaningless.
2. Tiers/matchups change all the time. All it takes is one player to revolutionize a character or matchup, so if there is still room for development and improvement in a matchup, what is the point in giving it a ratio in the first place?

 

[JPOBS]

I'm of the opinion that matchup ratios and tierlists should change frequently and often to reflect the current metagamen. Why does everyone want to have a stagnant tierlist and matchup ratio anyway, there is no benefit to that.

I think peach should go much higher on the tierlist and all her matchups like vs fox need to be drastically changed to be closer to even as opposed to whatever ridiculous ratio is currently popular opinion, backed by the idea that "armada is too good"

Tier lists/matchups should be fast and loose imo.

 

[Tee ay eye]

So I came to a small little epiphany today.

I really like talking about Smash, and I feel like I gain a lot from it, but I'm not a giant fan of the open forum setting for a few reasons. It takes a long time to get your responses (not a giant problem, but still slightly off-putting), but moreover, since it's a free-for all discussion, there's a bit too much entropy in discussion for my liking (things can deviate too far from what we're talking about) and since people aren't speaking directly to me, I don't feel particularly inclined to respond.

I've generally liked my experiences talking about Smash through Facebook messages or through AIM because both people get constant feedback on everything they say as opposed to writing up some broad general statement that is open and addressed to everyone. I feel like direct conversations about the game are just much more productive, meaningful, and interactive, which makes it a better medium for learning.

Feel free to even send me a link to a match for me to watch and talk about, but I'll warn you that I'll be less likely to do that because it requires me to dedicate a few minutes of concentration to just that, and I don't exactly have a specific thing to look for, and because it's just me talking about a match rather than having an interactive discussion on-the-fly... although that can lead to a nice discussion. As I said, feel free to send matches my way, but don't take it personally if I don't watch them

tl;dr: Feel free to hit me up on AIM (xroflmaowtfx) or messaging me directly on Facebook with questions or topics of discussion of pretty much anything pertaining to the game (does not necessarily have to be directly Marth related).

asdfasdfasdfasdfasdf

 

[danieljosebatista]

I'm of the opinion that matchup ratios and tierlists should change frequently and often to reflect the current metagamen. Why does everyone want to have a stagnant tierlist and matchup ratio anyway, there is no benefit to that.

I think peach should go much higher on the tierlist and all her matchups like vs fox need to be drastically changed to be closer to even as opposed to whatever ridiculous ratio is currently popular opinion, backed by the idea that "armada is too good"

Tier lists/matchups should be fast and loose imo.

Agreed. Peach will definitely be moving up whenever they get around to a new list. I think she'll move above Marth at the least.

 

[Bones0]

@JPOBS

Yeah, if you're going to have a tier list/matchup chart, I agree it should be like that (fast and loose). I don't think Melee's player pool is deep enough for it to be very effective though. Armada very well may just be "too good." If we had 30+ Peach and Fox players near the peak metagame we'd be able to tell for sure or not if Fox really pwns her. But we don't. Melee's skill gap is too pro so matchups take too much of a back seat to overall skill for us to be able to tell what results mean what. That's why I'd rather just not have a tier list at all, or at least one based on very rough guidelines (like don't try to rank the top tiers in order; just put them all in top and consider them "equal.") If you want a snapshot of the current metagame, you need only check the results of the last 2-3 nationals. Obviously that won't tell you much though because like I said, the player pool is too small. ICs seems like a particularly good example because the few ICs mains that are good are really good, but ICs is such an unpopular character compared to the spacies that they are fighting against the odds of getting top placings. More Foxes than ICs in bracket doesn't mean anything, and you can't even compare them relative to the total number of Fox/IC mains that entered the tournament because Fox is inordinately more popular.

 

[Warhawk]

Agreed. Peach will definitely be moving up whenever they get around to a new list. I think she'll move above Marth at the least.

I could be wrong but I think the MBR is done making tier lists.

 

[SSBMLahti]

As of late, my life has seemed void and meaningless. I'm not sure how I can don the will to live on in such a disgusting and unforgiving world.

Spoiler

Meaning I haven't played Melee in nearly a month and it's killing me- which is also the reason I haven't posted in so long.

 

[Pachinkosam]

i fell you man :,D

 

[Max?]

I don't even...

LOL at mogwai in that thread saying falco < sheik and marth. Mogwai swears up and down these days that falco wins every matchup lol

But that's only because more people actually play those characters. The ratio is hella skewed, but if more people actually play low/mid tiers, then pools would be a graveyard for those characters too. Popular characters lose a lot in pools, but they also comprise the majority of bracket.

Falcon boards circa 08-09 could give you a run for your money.

I HATE when people say this kind of thing. "X character wins/goes even with Y character, but no one in the whole community has been able to show it"

How do people even know a "proper" marth vs jigglypuff matchup is supposed to look like if its never been shown in tournament. This logic really does confuse me.

Agreed with this whole post.

I'm of the opinion that matchup ratios and tierlists should change frequently and often to reflect the current metagamen. Why does everyone want to have a stagnant tierlist and matchup ratio anyway, there is no benefit to that.

I think peach should go much higher on the tierlist and all her matchups like vs fox need to be drastically changed to be closer to even as opposed to whatever ridiculous ratio is currently popular opinion, backed by the idea that "armada is too good"

Tier lists/matchups should be fast and loose imo.

And this one.


JPOBS is the homie.

 

[Sinji]

Agrees with Jpobs on the mid tier argument.

Mofo for example got first seed in 1st round pools at apex with Ness.

 

[leffen]

Lmao at "peach fox not being that bad". You're just wrong, and yes, Armada being better is a perfectly viable argument. It was with Mango, otherwise Mario would be way higher...

bias ftw

 

[Max?]

Agrees with Jpobs on the mid tier argument.

Mofo for example got first seed in 1st round pools at apex with Ness.

In all fairness, his pool was a total joke and had no one good in it.... meanwhile mine had Armada in it. Still trying to figure that one out

 

[Bl@ckChris]

i was bout to say...what? lol I beat mofo at rom4...how did he acquire such a pool at apex. i am astounded.

i mean, vectorman took my pool with roy (i took game two)/yoshi (i got mind****ed lol). but his pool also had nobody good in it

peach fox is funny.

 

[Max?]

Having a big name and being popular in the community is more important than actual skill

 

[Rubyiris]

Hey guys; some critique would be really awesome. Tourney this saturday. I've done quite a bit of my own studying, but I'd love to get some outside opinions on what I'm doing well, and what need work.

vs Falcoty (Shiek/Marth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uaPFKyfJhs&feature=g-u-u&context=G2e0c140FUAAAAAAAAAA#t=1m37s

vs Coreygames (Samus)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAtj9sVJvlE&feature=related

vs OkamiBW (Shiek)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bxgh1h7oxm8&feature=related

vs Wobbles (Ice Climbers)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9p4gSOE_AOg&feature=related

vs Dark Shifter (Jigglypuff)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Obfbl-OXlA4&list=UUOd2ncLP0OFPIDcX8iBcl5g&index=2&feature=plcp

vs OKSAS (Ganondorf)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTssLUXEK8c&list=UUOd2ncLP0OFPIDcX8iBcl5g&index=3&feature=plcp

vs TaJ (Link)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21t4R1irN08&list=UUOd2ncLP0OFPIDcX8iBcl5g&index=5&feature=plcp

 

[EWC]

Watched your set with Okami.

First game:
-good general stage control
-combo game was pretty good, but could use some tightening up (I can give specific suggestions but I think you can probably figure that out yourself
-last stock was really cute
-uhh you seemed to be shielding a lot for no reason?? like when he was well out of any attack range
-should try to move around more from neutral position. Right now your spacing seems pretty static

game 2:
-right at the beggining you start what coulda been a really nice combo with shine waveland shine dair and then... nothing guessing you just messed up here? but in any case uptilt should probably followed
-I think you're shooting too many lasers. You fall into some pretty predictable lasering partterns whenever you are in neutral. Again, try moving more, keep tighter spacing to put more direct pressure

I can give more specific advice (like time stamps with examples of what I'm talking about) if you want.

 

[stelzig]

I'm of the opinion that matchup ratios and tierlists should change frequently and often to reflect the current metagamen. Why does everyone want to have a stagnant tierlist and matchup ratio anyway, there is no benefit to that.

I think peach should go much higher on the tierlist and all her matchups like vs fox need to be drastically changed to be closer to even as opposed to whatever ridiculous ratio is currently popular opinion, backed by the idea that "armada is too good"

Tier lists/matchups should be fast and loose imo.

Well this is interesting... I think "fast and loose" ratios and tier lists/rankings of any kind are bad exactly because of "whatever ridicilous popular opinions" based on little data and likely to change back to the original again eventually.
It is more important/relevant in powerrankings I guess (where I originally argued against people wanting so dynamic listings), but I believe this is also true for these things. I agree completely with leffen.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I definitely agree with the low tier main mentality being an issue though. Personally, I've never minded playing obscure characters, but I've heard many people complain about having to play vs. low tiers both in friendlies and in tournament.

I certainly think the low tier mentality is an issue, but people will get pissy about what character you play (and your playstyle) no matter which character you play (and how you play them).

"OMG Puff is soooooo lame"
"OMG Sheik takes nooooooo skill"
"OMG play a real character"
"OMG all you do is camp the edge"
"OMG all you do is run around and nair"

And so forth.

It does affect low tiers more, but I didn't include it because... I mean, I've heard the same sort of thing spoken about top tier characters and mid tier characters too.

 

[Tee ay eye]

don't give advice to rubyiris

i don't want him beating me this saturday

 

[Sinji]

In all fairness, his pool was a total joke and had no one good in it.... meanwhile mine had Armada in it. Still trying to figure that one out

Oh yea lol. I remember who you were now in person. Armada is goods though. Who did you use against him?

 

[Mogwai]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=129732

oh god... lol, I wish I could hit a button and just delete all my posts from pre-2008.

 

[Cactuar]

I definitely laughed at you writing "all be it".

 

[Heart Break Kid]

Having a big name and being popular in the community is more important than actual skill

Gmoney

 

[twizzlerj]

oh god... lol, I wish I could hit a button and just delete all my posts from pre-2008.

lmao at the worse then marth and sheik part. Died at the following comment agreeing with you. Falco=best if not tied with fox. Trying to main both kinda for those reasons plus i enjoy going fast.

 

[Mogwai]

I definitely laughed at you writing "all be it".

fml. ****ing albeit is a stupid word anyway.

 

[twizzlerj]

fml. ****ing albeit is a stupid word anyway.

I have learned something I really didn't want to English language too good. It is still better then everything else no matter how arrogant and bias that sounds

 

[Mogwai]

It's an incredibly expressive and awesome language. It's also stupid as balls.

I just hate how when you're typing fast on the internet sometimes your brain just herp derps and types something ******** like "all be it" and then Cactuar thinks less of you until the end of time.

 

[EWC]

English is definitely top tier.

 

[TheZhuKeeper]

Lmao at "peach fox not being that bad". You're just wrong, and yes, Armada being better is a perfectly viable argument. It was with Mango, otherwise Mario would be way higher...

bias ftw

It's not just Armada though, MacD / VanZ and a few others have done fine in the US at least. Not as bad as the previous 70-30 or w/e the matchup chart said, might still be 55-45 or 60-40 or whatever, but numbers really don't matter that much, all I know is that "peach fox is not that bad" keke

 

[Warhawk]

Lmao at "peach fox not being that bad". You're just wrong, and yes, Armada being better is a perfectly viable argument. It was with Mango, otherwise Mario would be way higher...

bias ftw

At Apex MacD beat Zhu's Fox and Vanz beat Cyrain I think pretty soundly I think so its not really the same, since Armada's not the only one doing well against Fox. No one is saying Peach beats Fox, but its not that bad.

 

[KirbyKaze]

60-40 vs 65-35 is srs bsns

 

[Mogwai]

pretty sure Peach Fox is 56.7-43.3

don't ask me which way it goes though.

 

[Rubyiris]

Watched your set with Okami.

First game:
-good general stage control
-combo game was pretty good, but could use some tightening up (I can give specific suggestions but I think you can probably figure that out yourself
-last stock was really cute
-uhh you seemed to be shielding a lot for no reason?? like when he was well out of any attack range
-should try to move around more from neutral position. Right now your spacing seems pretty static

game 2:
-right at the beggining you start what coulda been a really nice combo with shine waveland shine dair and then... nothing guessing you just messed up here? but in any case uptilt should probably followed
-I think you're shooting too many lasers. You fall into some pretty predictable lasering partterns whenever you are in neutral. Again, try moving more, keep tighter spacing to put more direct pressure

I can give more specific advice (like time stamps with examples of what I'm talking about) if you want.

G1:

*Shield thing is stopping my momentum. It's a spacing trick I'm practicing. :3
*Could you give some specifics regarding my static spacing?

G2:

*Yeah I derped my combo.
*I've tried this previously in other tournaments vs Okami. when I laser less he starts to gay me with WD back spam. I do agree that I need to be less pattern orientated with my lasers though.

Thanks for the feedback. :3

don't give advice to rubyiris

i don't want him beating me this saturday

It's always a big confidence boost when players I respect think I'm a legitimate threat to them.

<3