Mahone
Smash Champion
im not sure what ur looking for anymore so imma stop responding lol
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PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Dr Peepee
- Start date
Bones0
Smash Legend
I pronounced that "refuculous" in my head. >.<
TheZhuKeeper
Smash Champion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkheKzbsh9U&feature=player_detailpage#t=84s
punishing missed techs with weak uair -> utilt
i feel like my style has changed so much over the past year. it feels so unreal to look at old vids.
i'll be recording random friendlies for anyone who's interested. i feel like very few people are uploading random matches these days, so i'll try my best to change that. how's the video quality (i'll make sure to fix the sound)?
punishing missed techs with weak uair -> utilt
i feel like my style has changed so much over the past year. it feels so unreal to look at old vids.
i'll be recording random friendlies for anyone who's interested. i feel like very few people are uploading random matches these days, so i'll try my best to change that. how's the video quality (i'll make sure to fix the sound)?
Bones0
Smash Legend
Zhuuuuuu... your weak uair stuff helped me SO MUCH at my last tourney. <3
Any advice on how to apply shield stopping (or w/e you call it when you dash into shield)? I'm trying to incorporate it into my game, but I only really ever think about it when I want to pivot bair. I've seen you use it after lasers (is that exclusively for powershields?) and in other situations where I'm not even sure why you are using it.
The video was a little fuzzy, but certainly adequate for friendlies. I mostly get annoyed by low frame rate, but that wasn't an issue.
Any advice on how to apply shield stopping (or w/e you call it when you dash into shield)? I'm trying to incorporate it into my game, but I only really ever think about it when I want to pivot bair. I've seen you use it after lasers (is that exclusively for powershields?) and in other situations where I'm not even sure why you are using it.
The video was a little fuzzy, but certainly adequate for friendlies. I mostly get annoyed by low frame rate, but that wasn't an issue.
Warhawk
Smash Lord
Zhu you took 42% that entire match... lol
TheZhuKeeper
Smash Champion
I actually picked up shield stopping from watching ss in my early days. I kinda just mimicked the way he controlled his characters momentum. But yeah, I really just use it as a dash cancel. It's just nice because it protects me, potentially powershields, and is easy to maneuver out of (wd oos).
I've got 2 hours of tight footage between me and spark. Probably gonna make a short highlights thing between us (lots of neat suicide kills by him and lots of wuair -> utilt from me). I'll probably be doing more of this stuff every time I have people come over for friendlies, so stay tuned (this one time I mega whooped stab with Fox, doing Canadian / Chilean combos allllllll day, didn't get any of it D'= ).
Max?
Smash Champion
Thank god someone else is here that see's the light. Falco is fake and must be put in his place.
Except for hipster Falco status guys like me. I mean, when I started playing Falco, he was like #5 or #6 on the tier list.
Max?
Smash Champion
This is true. You're so retro Wes
Warhawk
Smash Lord
Has Falco ever been outside the top 5? lol
http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_NTSC_tier_lists
nope.
but I came in at the 7th tier list, when he was 5th behind Fox, Sheik, Marth, Peach.
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
Peach used to be....4th? That's funny.
unknown522
Some guy
@ pp and blunted:
I still haven't gotten on a computer. I'll get back to you later
I still haven't gotten on a computer. I'll get back to you later
twizzlerj
Smash Journeyman
lol just looked at all those tier lists how bad were people playing back then for falcon to be over falco. Probably playing as bad as me 
ThatGuy
Smash Master
The only tier list that had Falcon over Falco was the April Fool's tier list.lol just looked at all those tier lists how bad were people playing back then for falcon to be over falco. Probably playing as bad as me
unknown522
Some guy
yeah I started at the 6th tier list. But when I entered my first tourney, I was at the 7th
Bones0
Smash Legend
It's funny how little the tiers have changed despite how much game play has changed. Pretty clear evidence of how much tradition and perspective can affect peoples' opinions imo.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I didn't look at the lists, but I tend to feel moving the low tiers much is a precarious business.
Bones0
Smash Legend
Moving top tiers is dumb because everyone's biased about who they play and who the current top players use. Moving mid/bottom tiers is dumb because no one is good with them.
Bl@ckChris
Smash Hero
so you don't think we just...had a good idea of character potential / who the best characters in the game are 5-6 years into the game?
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I always feel weird because I actually think my character is stupidly ridiculous despite being a high level player. Maybe that's part of what holds me back from reaching top level rofl. You must think your character sucks this much in order to be elite.
I guess mine is just a different kind of bias though. I love Sheik <3
Moving the mid/bottom tiers is precarious not only because they're not well-represented but because if, at any point, their flagship representative stops performing well with them... then you incur a gigantic ****storm about whether or not <player> was successful because <character> was actually viable or not and how they couldn't keep up with the metagame or how the character's limitations caught up with them or how everything has been discovered with <character> and there's nowhere left for <character> to develop and other BS like that. Even if <player> simply retired and/or stopped playing competitively.
It's messy.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,560
Kevin you should enter a tourney as Dr. Pinkie Pie
mm me
Bones0
Smash Legend
5-6 years?
The first tier was released in '02... In just 1 year, people had targeted Fox/Falco/Sheik as the dominant top tiers. Sheik at least makes a little sense due to her more basic combos being fairly effective, but Fox and Falco? Are you telling me in an age where no one had even conceived of SHFFLing or attacking with a reflector that Fox and Falco were running the tourney scene? Get real. The chance of the tiers being even REMOTELY accurate to reality is slim to none considering how inexperienced and isolated the community was. Crazy stages were legal, rule sets allowed items, and the best players in the world weren't capable of virtually any of the advanced techs that even beginners are capable of today.
I don't see how anyone can watch THIS video and comfortably say that it gives any accurate level of character potential. It seems infinitely more likely that characters were roughly sorted by general skills (even back then they could tell the difference between fast and slow movement, and good or bad hitboxes), and then everything beyond that was mostly influenced by character popularity. Then of course once a few top tiers are established, everyone wants to play them and those characters end up getting much more developed than others. It's also quite funny looking at Marth's placing relative to Ken's performance. He rises as Ken comes out of obscurity at TG4, and as he retires Marth falls back down.
Not trying to start some huge argument. I just think it's dumb how badly people tier-***** when it isn't even relevant until you can make into late rounds of pools or bracket. I am pretty upset that the community is so heavily invested in just the few characters we have, but I'm pretty much clueless about other fighters. Are they all this bad when it comes to character variety? (I'm talking about character variety of the community, not of the results because somehow Melee has managed to maintain damn good variety considering the distribution of mains.)
twizzlerj
Smash Journeyman
well i stand corrected guess that was the joke
Bones0
Smash Legend
Correction: "because not enough people are good with them."
You ripping faces with DK only proves that you are a solid player, not that DK is a solid character. Also, I suck vs. DK.
Bl@ckChris
Smash Hero
what's your point, bones? do you think too many people play high tiered characters simply because theyre high tiered, and they're only high tiered because they started out that way?
people who want to win will choose a character they think will lead them to win. i think that's a popular sentiment among competitive gamers. most people assume that characters with the best inherent abilities will lead them to victory.
so...why you mad?
people who want to win will choose a character they think will lead them to win. i think that's a popular sentiment among competitive gamers. most people assume that characters with the best inherent abilities will lead them to victory.
so...why you mad?
Bones0
Smash Legend
Yeah, basically that. I understand people will choose the character they are most likely to win with. It just sucks that that's the case, especially because a lot of people KNOW they'll never be the best, but the top tiers are the easy go-to's so they choose them anyway. I'm mad because Melee has so much more to offer that we will never get to see. Just IMAGINE if every Fox player today switched to ANY single character below mid tier tomorrow and played them almost exclusively for a year or two straight. The amount of advances that would be made by all those people switching to a single character would be insane, and I think if all of the characters were equally developed, a lot more of the cast would be considered "viable" to win tournaments with.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I think the major things that impede the low tiers from being played and/or developing are:
1) Guides for them generally suck massively so it's hard to 'learn' them in that respect
2) If you don't have a top level player then there's not much video footage to take ideas from
3) No online
4) Top characters are more attractive because they're stronger characters
The fact that we have distance barriers that prevent us from playing vs <low-tier-flagship-representative> also makes gauging skill and stuff like that kind of hard. Anyone else remember Cosmo? I feel some of the annoyances that come from those kinds of barriers and inability to reach a consistent opinion easily also discourages the top players for some of these obscure characters from posting. I've certainly heard that kind of complaint before.
Having no good resources of any kind (players, guides, videos) are a good way of discouraging people from playing a character.
The cycle kind of feeds into itself. It only really breaks if someone like Axe comes along and breaks at least one of those issues and generates tons of interest in the character. Trouble is, you have no idea how good the character will wind up being once it's developed (or if you have the correct skillset to emphasize that character's optimal play). So that uncertainty also probably discourages people from trying to be the hero of <insert-non-developed-low-tier> because it's kind of a guess. An educated guess at best. Sometimes you get tons of development and stuff to work on (a la Yoshi) and other times your character actually does suck and has no options (see: Bowser).
Since that won't be a problem with the top 8 or so, why not play them?
1) Guides for them generally suck massively so it's hard to 'learn' them in that respect
2) If you don't have a top level player then there's not much video footage to take ideas from
3) No online
4) Top characters are more attractive because they're stronger characters
The fact that we have distance barriers that prevent us from playing vs <low-tier-flagship-representative> also makes gauging skill and stuff like that kind of hard. Anyone else remember Cosmo? I feel some of the annoyances that come from those kinds of barriers and inability to reach a consistent opinion easily also discourages the top players for some of these obscure characters from posting. I've certainly heard that kind of complaint before.
Having no good resources of any kind (players, guides, videos) are a good way of discouraging people from playing a character.
The cycle kind of feeds into itself. It only really breaks if someone like Axe comes along and breaks at least one of those issues and generates tons of interest in the character. Trouble is, you have no idea how good the character will wind up being once it's developed (or if you have the correct skillset to emphasize that character's optimal play). So that uncertainty also probably discourages people from trying to be the hero of <insert-non-developed-low-tier> because it's kind of a guess. An educated guess at best. Sometimes you get tons of development and stuff to work on (a la Yoshi) and other times your character actually does suck and has no options (see: Bowser).
Since that won't be a problem with the top 8 or so, why not play them?
Bones0
Smash Legend
Can you elaborate on this more? Are you saying good players that use obscure characters don't post because of peoples' opinions of their character? Not sure what you're getting at.
Also, you can all just ignore me. I decided to go back to my old posts to see what I thought. Apparently I haven't changed my opinion at all (it's REALLY eerie seeing how I type pretty much the SAME EXACT WAY I did 6 years ago... same group of words and everything WTF). Only thing that's changed is I am a hypocrite.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
What sometimes happens is we get a low tier player that's really good with an obscure character. I'm gonna use Cosmo as an example just because he was relatively recent. Cosmo would top 2-3 (usually 3rd) in Midwest tournaments a ton. He beat Kels once (nobody start **** over this, please, kthanx).
He would argue something like, "Zelda does <thing> against Fox". But then it would get shot down by a bunch of replies and gain support by others. It's hard to evaluate some of the low tier claims when they're in obscure regions because one of the big arguments (that I am guilty of using, sadly) was "Midwest sucks, strategy only works because Midwest sucks". This is extremely disrespectful to the strategist and generally just leads to a giant ****storm.
Cosmo, to my knowledge, never really expressed any frustration about this. But other high level low tier players have when I've asked them at major tournaments as to why they don't post on the boards. It's frustrating to have your ideas shot down in that kind of manner.
Having greater accessibility to these players (via online, closer proximity, etc) makes these strategies and characters easier to evaluate objectively. Encourages people to post without running into as many problems centered around things not related to the character or possibly outdated perceptions of the strategy and how it interacts with the modern environment (people playing a bad game of theorybros, basically). Creates more opportunity for viewing material, proper discussion (that isn't riddled with regional biases, etc), and so forth.
So it kind of bleeds into a bunch of the stuff I addressed but such is the nature of these kind of issues.
Niko45
Smash Master
I think practicality has a lot to do with it as well since a lot of the top tiers play really similarly to each other (straight forward comboing, fluid movement, grab abuse, general speed). You can see even among top characters, sheik and marth might be worse than puff but are way more popularly played due to having a more well-rounded skill-set and not necessarily needing to focus on abusing a singular tactic.
I'm more inclined to think the actually underdeveloped low tiers are the ones that play weird, like ness or yoshi. Where as a character like Roy isn't hiding much potential, he just sucks and it's in plain sight.
I'm more inclined to think the actually underdeveloped low tiers are the ones that play weird, like ness or yoshi. Where as a character like Roy isn't hiding much potential, he just sucks and it's in plain sight.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I think Sheik is better than Puff :'(
But yeah the fact that those characters (Fox, Falco, Sheik, etc) are straight-forward is nice. Their designs can be played in an obviously effective, simple way and that's... attractive.
I am inclined to agree to some degree that a lot of low tiers are probably not going anywhere. But I considered Pika a pretty simple character until Axe came along so I'm hesitant to make that kind of claim across the board. That said, I don't see Zelda, Roy, and Link going anywhere any time soon. In general, I think a good place to look for character potential is to start with movement and then work your way up... rather than doing what a lot of people do (which is start with punishment). If a character doesn't pass a certain speed threshold, it's too hard to keep pace with certain runaway strategies (and losing to runaway is very restricting to potential because it's the least interactive onstage strategy).
edit:
I think, because of the above, Bowser and Kirby have the least potential out of the cast and will probably eventually be the 2 worst characters. Not that exact placing really matters, when you've reached that region of the tier list.
But yeah the fact that those characters (Fox, Falco, Sheik, etc) are straight-forward is nice. Their designs can be played in an obviously effective, simple way and that's... attractive.
I am inclined to agree to some degree that a lot of low tiers are probably not going anywhere. But I considered Pika a pretty simple character until Axe came along so I'm hesitant to make that kind of claim across the board. That said, I don't see Zelda, Roy, and Link going anywhere any time soon. In general, I think a good place to look for character potential is to start with movement and then work your way up... rather than doing what a lot of people do (which is start with punishment). If a character doesn't pass a certain speed threshold, it's too hard to keep pace with certain runaway strategies (and losing to runaway is very restricting to potential because it's the least interactive onstage strategy).
edit:
I think, because of the above, Bowser and Kirby have the least potential out of the cast and will probably eventually be the 2 worst characters. Not that exact placing really matters, when you've reached that region of the tier list.
Niko45
Smash Master
Yea I actually need to take that back about Roy, as in some situations he is actually crazy good (arguably as good or better than Marth vs spacies on FD). I just meant to use him as a character example that doesn't play abstractly at all, yet still doesn't do well, which sorta makes him look directly inferior to the top tiers.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Oh. Yeah, definitely. To add to that, I think being weird is a huge part of why Yoshi got so much attention lol. All of sudden people are interested in these unique strange things and mechanics he has that nobody else has. He doesn't look directly worse than <random top tier>, he looks different!
Roy, conversely... just looks like a bad version of a character who's already long since passed his glory days... yeah... not as interesting. Just bad. Only bad.
Roy, conversely... just looks like a bad version of a character who's already long since passed his glory days... yeah... not as interesting. Just bad. Only bad.
Bones0
Smash Legend
OMG, okay, I know EXACTLY what you're talking about. Basically people who try to Theory Bros. explanations of why characters aren't viable. I think this is also fairly common (and annoying/frustrating) with top tiers because people just love to assume everything is cut and dry. Sort of like how Hax was arguing approaching didn't work because of "Perfect Peach" (lol) or how when I mentioned that Falco can fade away aerial on Marth without getting faired OoS and Leffen said I was dumb because the Marth can shield DI in and SH side-B OoS. >.>
It's so easy to say "such-and-such strat doesn't work because they can do this!" But of course, then you just end up with Theory bros where no one can hit each other because no one wants to admit that "hmmm, okay, that will probably work most of the time despite there being some TAS capability to escape!"
Bing
Smash Master
This is the exact reason why I wasnt afraid to try Pichu. I figured that even though I wouldnt be able to play him often, I still had Unknown an hour away and I would see every month. It is incredibly difficult to learn characters otherwise. I mean, if you go on the Pichu boards, who do you have there? Myself, Grim Tuesday, AesirGod? Thats it. Not much experience in terms of use and skill.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
G
genkaku
Guest
I started playing falco partially because (after I picked up on his options) he felt very intuitive and partially because mang0.
This is probably 50% my temperament with the game, 50% what videos are available online.
This is probably 50% my temperament with the game, 50% what videos are available online.
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
Puff sucks (Read: About as good as Falcon). People just suck vs her and think she's better than she really is. ;D