Falco's probably better than anyone at not letting the opponent get above him with his amazing full hop and then he can just use it to waveland onto a top platform and full hop again so the situation can usually be avoided altogether if you want.
Ironic that you mention his head being exposed and then ask about the invincibility frames of the upsmash as I'm pretty sure they cover his head (but not his beak oddly) lol.
Well his FH is really good for preventing the situation yeah, but I'm supposing a time where they are already above him(just somehow) and he has to deal with being attacked from above.
Is his head invincible the whole way through the move? whoa
I don't see many character having a move fast enough to drop down that way. Like if Falcon tries to dair from that high then you can counter his dair with anything before it comes out.. like jump at him before the animation comes out.
Then he does a knee/Bair mixup or DJ waveland bait. Or he spaces the Dair. I just feel like this can be abused and doesn't necessarily have one surface layer answer such as jumping at them. Ganon falling through the top YS platform with a Bair/Fair is nearly impossible to outright punish for Falco and Falco has to switch positions with Ganon to be safe from it or be right under him before the move really connects with Falco(this is one example used to clarify what I mean and not the actual issue or anything).
On YS at least utilt hits through the platform directly above which is ****ing amazing and would cover any type of approach to that platform. In general if they are falling through a platform they needed to get on that platform in the first place so you should have some amount of time to anticipate that, unless you were baited and whiffed something right as they went up in which case you're pretty boned.
In fact, I've been noticing this to be an insanely good falco ditto strategy. You know how as Marth it can be extremely effective to camp generally by wavelanding in place on a platform and just falling through with retreat fair repeatedly?
Well, not to say you can spam that in falco dittos but a really quick waveland on a platform, say, after shielding a laser or something can net you fall through dairs all ****ing day.
Seems like it can be one of the best ways to deal with being the falco that doesn't have stage control at the time.
Utilt only hits through the part directly above you. That is definitely really good though and alleviates this problem to some extent on YS. Top platform there as well as side/top platforms anywhere else can still give Falco trouble though if that's where people are choosing to attack Falco from. Lasers control horizontal distance and his bair/uptilt control space behind him but only to certain degrees/times on each move(unlike say Marth who could SH no FF into Uair whenever he wanted to and cover his entire head quickly).
And using the platforms yourself to counter this as well as other lower techniques might be just the place to start for some new ideas. Thanks Niko. =) Mango does this thing where he takes lasers to DJ to platform or Dair so I definitely think you're onto a great thing there.
against falco i just try to hit him in the face. it's his most obvious hole.
as falco, i cover that hole with lasers/DD camping. frankly though i don't think it's all that dangerous to get hit once or twice like that, but it's a lot MORE dangerous to get grabbed after.
i agree that camping under a platform is also a good idea, 1 to reduce the potency of opponent's aerial > grab set-ups but also 2 so that you can edge cancel any set-ups performed on you.
if i can't aerial shine on my opponent's shield, i don't do an aerial. it's too easy to abuse his lag. instead i'll land in a laser at a small distance or i'll waveland....somewhere.
kevin your are awesome.
Getting hit could lead to getting knocked down, which COULD lead to getting grabbed or chased to death, so I'm not thrilled about that either but I get your point that risking the hit is better than risking being grabbed. What would you try to do out of DD? You can't uptilt out of that so I assume you try to position for Bair or move out of the way of the incoming attack or attack the opponent first?
I hadn't considered beating out grab setups with under platform camping because I always worry about getting thrown offstage if I'm ever by the edge lol. Might be better vs Falcon than against say Sheik lol.
Ya I know right? That's what he said to me..
What happened to that, huh? =)
I like having fun, but not in my thread as much as it's been going on.
Armada took over his thread. =P
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There isn't a character I can think of who has a fast move below them that would be useful enough to drop through a platform with, besides Falco (lol), and maybe Fox. If you know it's coming, you could just roll, I think. You could also utilt or usmash (more for Fox, though, since dair is stupid on Falco). If you wanted, you could shield > OoS punish (shine, probably), as well.
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Hey, how do you guys learn to not want to hit things? As a player, the only thought I really have in my mind is, "I have to hit them." I was told that I don't always have to hit them. It is a linear line of thinking on my part, and it just boils down to patience. How does one acquire patience? (I'm fine with either a general answer, or one specific to Falco. I just want a concept to keep in mind.)
Puff could crash this angle, so can Peach kinda(why floating is such a big deal besides dodging lasers), so can Fox with Nair from FHs and platforms(Javi crashed it a lot with his FH nair vs lots of people), Falcon can from certain SH/FH/DJ/platform spacings and aerials, ganon can from similar things as Falcon, heck even the Marios can with their FH Dair lol. It may not be like a viable main strategy with every good character, but it is good to use at least once a match with most of the good(top-mid tier) characters.
Roll isn't a guaranteed solution for this situation every time but it can be good. The nature of the way that dead zone of Falco's can be threatened(pressure through the fear of crashing the angle Falco can't fight) can often show whether he wants to roll or not and eliminate guesswork for players looking for such cureall reactions.
I'm looking for more of a strategy than one more or two that can cover this.
I'm not recommending this, but I usually just shield any time I am getting attacked from above. Shine OoS pwns a lot of stuff, and even if their move is safe on shield (Falcon stomp/knee, Sheik fair, etc.) trying to escape after the move always seems easier/less risky than trying to beat it outright. Only thing you have to watch out for are tomahawks. On a related note, I've started to just spend entire games just watching for grabs and nothing else because it seems to really throw people off when they can't get their daily dosage of grabs even if they are landing a decent amount of other moves.
Shine OOS is **** but Falco in shield is not very effective imo. Being locked in one place is bad when usually you want to be locking the opponent down.
That avoiding grabs is an odd....but good thing to do I suppose lol. Keeps Falco from dying very easily, especially by the edge lol. Probably something I should consider focusing on as well...
exactly. being above falco isn't spectacular considering his uptilt will still beat almost everything, and in general, almost entire cast is terrible at attacking from above anyway. (almost every down air in the game is either slow, low priority, or sucks)
if all else fails though, I just use turn around/pivot bairs to cover my head.
Well uptilt tends to trade more than beat things in situations like that in my experience, and Falco isn't a character that typically enjoys trades. I am not only thinking of Dairs when I talk about attacking Falco's dead zone. I am also thinking of starting above him and spacing a side aerial around his bair/uptilt or falling close to him then forcing him to react but still having time to DJ to a platform and then crashing the angle again. It doesn't seem that bad because not much thought has been given to attacking this angle but I bet if more people worked on it then it would make Falcos looks silly at times.
I agree with bones... honestly the best option is to shield.
The situations ur describing pp sounds like you already failed to maintain a good spacing and they already "won", so you should concede and shield rather than try to get greedy and beat it...
but man, speaking of falco... have u SEEN armada's falco, **** is amazing!!!
I'll team with you next 3 nc tourneys just please don't do this anymore OMFG my rage right now
Not sure where I should be putting this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5x1Y9aYaP5o
critique prease
Tech skill seems to be a big problem....it's affecting your punishment game.
Try to work on throw followups more by working your position. If you make luigi DJ then he can't get away from your attacks anymore so space him out or force him to commit then punish him.
Try not to AC Bair into someone(especially at low %) if you can help it.
Also calm down in bad situations. When you get hit you would often just hold shield and look to roll into the middle or attack out. Remember you don't HAVE to shield once you get hit once and you can attack OOS to mess with people as well.
Try to mix up your movement game with your lasers a little more. You died on your 3rd stock for getting read for doing the same type of laser in place twice.
Edit: Word Mogwai that's tight I'm gonna test it out. Thanks =)
OTG no one is boohooing.
