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PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

Mahone

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Dr Peepee said:
.......

But about your actual point, I'm talking about focusing on ways to avoid that situation overall rather than how to necessarily beat it. Yes, Falco has some solid aerial-hitting moves, but wouldn't it be better if he utilized his traits in such a way that allowed him to minimize time spent in that situation and how he could have the best chance of winning if he was forced into it? As people learn to fight Falco, this will become a greater issue and I'm thinking mostly macro strategies here that could help Falco avoid the situation.

Yeah, you could just shield/take the hit, but then you don't really explore all of the options like maybe WD to shield at least(moves Falco so that his weak area shifts or something).

Essentially, we did just say the same thing, but I also think more work could be put into how the immediate situation could be handled should Falco be forced into it(even though it would be better if more time was spent avoiding it as well obviously).
Click to expand...
i see... ya well in that case it would really depend on what ur getting attacked with and what percent ur at...

obv. at low percent you would cc if they don't space well, but assuming good spacing it depends on the attack...

like a falcon dair, you can probably beat with uptilt at almost all spacings with the right timing i think... in general angling ur shield to make it harder to lcancel could be an idea, along with lightshielding to be pushed farther, i don't think those are well explored...

i say it depends on the attack cuz something like falcon's bair at mid/low percent is not a big deal if u trade, whereas something like jiggs falling upair might be scarier, really depends where u are on the stage too...

like someone else said, i don't think this situation is that easy to obtain against falco because of his amazing full hop aerial game, i find it pretty easy to stop them (even if it means trading) before they get to that spacing, also lasers help so im finding it hard to understand how they are consistently getting in that spacing, but i'll wait for u to explain more, since im guessing u have some example situations or something in mind.
 
Strong Badam

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no matter what you're doing just be even gayer and you'll get better w/ falco
 
Bones0

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Falcon's dair outprioritizes utilt... by a lot. That hitbox is insane. >____>

WDing forward into shield (so you go underneath their FH) seems like it could be helpful because it would get them on your back where shine OoS hits easily, and you can also bair OoS or something like WD back OoS into an utilt as they try to dash away after hitting your shield. I will mess with this tomorrow.
 
JPOBS

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"outprioritizes" isn't the right word I think.

I kno what you mean they can sh oos and space just so, so that uptilt misses and dair his. Buts thats a spacing thing, not a priority thing.
 
Dr Peepee

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Mahone said:
i see... ya well in that case it would really depend on what ur getting attacked with and what percent ur at...

obv. at low percent you would cc if they don't space well, but assuming good spacing it depends on the attack...

like a falcon dair, you can probably beat with uptilt at almost all spacings with the right timing i think... in general angling ur shield to make it harder to lcancel could be an idea, along with lightshielding to be pushed farther, i don't think those are well explored...

i say it depends on the attack cuz something like falcon's bair at mid/low percent is not a big deal if u trade, whereas something like jiggs falling upair might be scarier, really depends where u are on the stage too...

like someone else said, i don't think this situation is that easy to obtain against falco because of his amazing full hop aerial game, i find it pretty easy to stop them (even if it means trading) before they get to that spacing, also lasers help so im finding it hard to understand how they are consistently getting in that spacing, but i'll wait for u to explain more, since im guessing u have some example situations or something in mind.
Click to expand...
Is trading something desirable for Falco? If people let Falco know they will pick off that spot then he starts jumping into them. Then they bait it and punish him. This is simply manipulation of a bad situation to their benefit because Falco does not want to be in that situation. If Falcon(since this example is getting fun) is Dair'ing from a DL platform into Falco, and then Falco starts jumping up earlier to attack, well he may or may not beat the Dair because Falcon doesn't HAVE to pop off the Dair right away. He can watch how Falco reacts in that situation and then beat it if he wants to. He can just chill, wait for the FH move, then jump over it and hit Falco or stomp on the platform to push Falco back down or something.

It's not necessarily about beating situations when it comes to character-specific weaknesses, it's about larger strategies that will help minimize those situations coming up in the first place regardless of character mostly.

Blunted_object10 said:
critique my falco please =)

Blunted Object (falco) vs Eggz (fox) LF

Bladewise (peach) vs Blunted Object (falco) WB'

There's more of me in that tournament but these are the 2 people I lost to in bracket that I want help against. This is the most recent tournament I went to.
Click to expand...
vs Eggz(game 1):

You didn't really take advantage of him shielding well. Use more grabs or shine grabs or at least a little more pressure before you start doing things that he is supposed to be running into trying to escape pressure.

Also your lasers were shot a little inaccurately. You need to make every one count against Fox because missing a shot means you didn't really control Fox at all and that could mean he could hit you and kill you.

I don't think you can edgeguard Fox with that edgehop Bair to stuff lol. You're better off chilling onstage and covering options, especially when the Fox is low and only up-B'ing.

You've also got some strange tech skill problems lol. Make sure to keep that sharp.

You need to make your punishments(grabs or otherwise) stronger. Be sure to have any hits planned out in advance if you can. Pummel while you grab to think or use Dairs to stun them longer so you can consider what are good options to hit them with afterward.

You rolled and spotdodged a little too much out of pressure. Holding shield is an okay mixup at times.

I think that's enough to work off of lol.
 
Mahone

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@pp...

dude falco has the most broken full hop game ever, its all those aerials i do when i play ur puff and say "look how broken this is" where i just full hop to the top platform... sure the top platform isn't the best place to be, but falco is one of the best characters at getting down from it...

again this depends on what part of the stage ur at, if ur in center stage i don't think this can really happen to you, on the side like ur talking about, on most stages you can do full hop nair to top platform and stuff most things, or if u trade it shouldn't put you in that bad of a position...

of course trading is not ideal, but like i said before, it sounds like ur talking about a position that is bad, where the objective is more resetting and regaining control rather than beating them outright

edit: ya i just watched shiz vs ss, i don't really see that situation come up a lot... just as i thought, but the few times it happened shiz usually only ate one aerial and never really got punished hard for it... one time he jump up shine wavelanded, which is what i was thinking would be a good mixup with the full hop aerials

edit: watching u vs mango... happened once so far, you beat it with full hop bair, happened again, u ate one aerial at zero... ya i finished watching, i dunno man, seems like with falcon for example, the falling dair is a little slow, so if u hit the tech roll away it doesn't look like they can get there in time, but its hard to tell just from watching vids, maybe the falcon isn't reacting fast enough or predicting a different tech, but ya doesn't look that amazing, other aerials don't do that much with proper di, of course u would rather not get hit, but for everytime you get hit it seems ur just as likely to full hop aerial him, which can reverse the situation a little because it leads to them being at the edge and u in the middle of the stage, and obv. the shine will lead to combos... not sure how weak of a position this is for falco, seems like if u are worried about this weakness u should be happy that ur character is so good lol
 
Bones0

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JPOBS said:
"outprioritizes" isn't the right word I think.

I kno what you mean they can sh oos and space just so, so that uptilt misses and dair his. Buts thats a spacing thing, not a priority thing.
Click to expand...
Priority is just how disjointed a move is. It's not like certain moves override others (unless you're talking about ground moves not clanking because one was stronger, but I've never heard priority used in that sense).

Mahone said:
@pp...

dude falco has the most broken full hop game ever, its all those aerials i do when i play ur puff and say "look how broken this is" where i just full hop to the top platform... sure the top platform isn't the best place to be, but falco is one of the best characters at getting down from it...

again this depends on what part of the stage ur at, if ur in center stage i don't think this can really happen to you, on the side like ur talking about, on most stages you can do full hop nair to top platform and stuff most things, or if u trade it shouldn't put you in that bad of a position...

of course trading is not ideal, but like i said before, it sounds like ur talking about a position that is bad, where the objective is more resetting and regaining control rather than beating them outright

edit: ya i just watched shiz vs ss, i don't really see that situation come up a lot... just as i thought, but the few times it happened shiz usually only ate one aerial and never really got punished hard for it... one time he jump up shine wavelanded, which is what i was thinking would be a good mixup with the full hop aerials

edit: watching u vs mango... happened once so far, you beat it with full hop bair, happened again, u ate one aerial at zero,
Click to expand...
Dude, you've convinced me to try FHing more. I hate doing it with Falco because it feels so dangerous if I miss or something, but I could probably just space better. I honestly wish Falco just had Fox's FH. I find the height so perfect for most things, like avoiding get up attacks but landing in time to punish or just barely getting over most characters' SHFFLs so I can land on top of them with a bair.
 
Mahone

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LOLOLOL no u do not wish u had fox's fh, dude u have to use it more...

i thinks its that puff influence or whatever the **** pp always talks about, but i find it so **** how much you can weave in the air with falco's full hop... u just like start at the edge and full hop while moving back all the way to top platform lol, its ridiculously safe in a lot of situations, the tradeoff is that its not gonna have a high reward, but thats why its great for bad situations and amazing at keeping them boxed out at the edge
 
Bones0

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Yeah, but Fox's double jump is basically equal to Falco's full hop. Fox can double jump up to the top platfom just as easily as Falco can FH up there. I do use FH by the ledge to get Phantasm ledge cancels a lot now that I think about it. lol But that's mostly when they have respawn invincibility. I think I just rush people whenever I am trapped at the ledge or in a bad position... which is probably bad, but yeah.
 
Mahone

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ya i guess its not like fox's is worse, im just used to falco's...

but thats kinda the thing u were talking about were u said u would feel dangerous if u missed... if u had to double jump and then got hit, THAT would be scary, but being able to keep ur jump is pretty awesome, thats why i like it
 
Bones0

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Well I was talking about FHing towards someone with a bair to interrupt their own approach. Fox's FH goes high enough that he is a significant threat to people on platforms, but it keeps him from landing on the top platform except for scenarios where you WANT to land on it (where you just DJ). Let's say you have a Falcon on the side plat and you want to hit him with a FH bair. Falco whiffs his bair and will probably get uaired as he lands on the top plat. Fox whiffs his bair, but it stays out to cut off Falcon's ability to advance further towards the middle until Fox is back near the ground.
 
V

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when i get thrown up onto one of the side platforms by marth i always try to get away from him asap. i was wondering if its okay to try and spot dodge his utilt and then drop through the platform and try to hit him?

also why is it that when i try to buffer a spot dodge or a roll ill sometimes throw out a smash move instead?

one more question: in falco dittos should i pretty much try and stay on top of the other falco and give him as little room to work with as possible? i also need some ideas on how to approach falco. i have very little experience in this matchup.

last one lol: if i know the other falco is going to ledge hop DL what should i do to hit him out of his DJ?
 
Mahone

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H I V + said:
when i get thrown up onto one of the side platforms by marth i always try to get away from him asap. i was wondering if its okay to try and spot dodge his utilt and then drop through the platform and try to hit him?

also why is it that when i try to buffer a spot dodge or a roll ill sometimes throw out a smash move instead?
Click to expand...
shield drop!!!! xDDDD im falco boarDZ

ur probably not holding shield i guess
 
Bones0

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H I V + said:
when i get thrown up onto one of the side platforms by marth i always try to get away from him asap. i was wondering if its okay to try and spot dodge his utilt and then drop through the platform and try to hit him?

also why is it that when i try to buffer a spot dodge or a roll ill sometimes throw out a smash move instead?
Click to expand...
NO. Options in order of effectiveness from greatest to least.
1. Shield drop
2. WD OoS off of the side (shield DI'ing off the edge is a slightly faster alternative; light shield is pro)
3. SH OoS and FF through
4. Jump away to top plat


If you are trying to buffer with the c-stick and end up smashing, it means you weren't shielding in the first place (which makes me wonder why you were buffering in the first place...).
 
V

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i suck at shield dropping if i am in hit stun or w/e it is (my shield just got hit and i cant do anything for a second because of it). i can do it if im just standing there or dding. i pretty much do 2 and 4 and sometimes 3. whenever i throw a smash move out instead of rolling or spot dodging its always after i roll or get up from the ground (just noticed that).
 
unknown522

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Blunted_object10 said:
critique my falco please =)

Blunted Object (falco) vs Eggz (fox) LF

Bladewise (peach) vs Blunted Object (falco) WB'

There's more of me in that tournament but these are the 2 people I lost to in bracket that I want help against. This is the most recent tournament I went to.
Click to expand...
long massive post coming up when I get home. Way too much to type on iPhone

Also pp: IMO falco's weakest spot is diagonally above + in front of him. (basically where the laser doesn't hit). Fortunately he has dozens of ways to cover these up
:phone:
 
Dr Peepee

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Mahone said:
@pp...

dude falco has the most broken full hop game ever, its all those aerials i do when i play ur puff and say "look how broken this is" where i just full hop to the top platform... sure the top platform isn't the best place to be, but falco is one of the best characters at getting down from it...

again this depends on what part of the stage ur at, if ur in center stage i don't think this can really happen to you, on the side like ur talking about, on most stages you can do full hop nair to top platform and stuff most things, or if u trade it shouldn't put you in that bad of a position...

of course trading is not ideal, but like i said before, it sounds like ur talking about a position that is bad, where the objective is more resetting and regaining control rather than beating them outright

edit: ya i just watched shiz vs ss, i don't really see that situation come up a lot... just as i thought, but the few times it happened shiz usually only ate one aerial and never really got punished hard for it... one time he jump up shine wavelanded, which is what i was thinking would be a good mixup with the full hop aerials

edit: watching u vs mango... happened once so far, you beat it with full hop bair, happened again, u ate one aerial at zero... ya i finished watching, i dunno man, seems like with falcon for example, the falling dair is a little slow, so if u hit the tech roll away it doesn't look like they can get there in time, but its hard to tell just from watching vids, maybe the falcon isn't reacting fast enough or predicting a different tech, but ya doesn't look that amazing, other aerials don't do that much with proper di, of course u would rather not get hit, but for everytime you get hit it seems ur just as likely to full hop aerial him, which can reverse the situation a little because it leads to them being at the edge and u in the middle of the stage, and obv. the shine will lead to combos... not sure how weak of a position this is for falco, seems like if u are worried about this weakness u should be happy that ur character is so good lol
Click to expand...
Most people don't exploit this really well vs Falco imo. I wouldn't watch Youtube videos to figure it out.

Nair hits from below Falco, but you're talking about intercepting someone as they try to get above you, which again is pretty good but a response to that bad situation in the first place so it can be manipulated. I'm thinking more overarching strategies here. FH'ing kinda gets at it, but I'd think something else would have to complement it in order to keep it safe.

I don't understand why this isn't a problem from center stage. There's still little to protect that weak spot from there....

H I V + said:
when i get thrown up onto one of the side platforms by marth i always try to get away from him asap. i was wondering if its okay to try and spot dodge his utilt and then drop through the platform and try to hit him?

also why is it that when i try to buffer a spot dodge or a roll ill sometimes throw out a smash move instead?

one more question: in falco dittos should i pretty much try and stay on top of the other falco and give him as little room to work with as possible? i also need some ideas on how to approach falco. i have very little experience in this matchup.

last one lol: if i know the other falco is going to ledge hop DL what should i do to hit him out of his DJ?
Click to expand...
It's good to get away from Marth when on a platfrom asap unless you shield drop into him.

Don't always spotdodge though because then he can just bait that lol. Mix up holding shield, spotdodging, and just running away or CC'ing and punishing.

You smash because you use the C stick to buffer and smash attacks also come from the C stick. Maybe make sure you hold shield down first?

It's better to control the other Falco in the ditto usually, so yeah staying on him can be pretty good.

Approaching with lasers, Nair, and Dair are all solid. Also falling through platforms with Dair/lasers/Bair can also be helpful to approach.

unknown522 said:
long massive post coming up when I get home. Way too much to type on iPhone

Also pp: IMO falco's weakest spot is diagonally above + in front of him. (basically where the laser doesn't hit). Fortunately he has dozens of ways to cover these up
:phone:
Click to expand...
Yeah that's more or less what I'm talking about. How would you recommend covering it then?
 
Beat!

Beat!

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Naughty Pixel said:
Page 1000, hory sheat.
Click to expand...
It's page 375. 40ppp is the official bestawesomeeveryoneshoulduseit standard for posts per page, so whatever page number you get using anyhting else (like 15ppp *shiver*) doesn't count.

This is an objective fact and is not up for discussion.


FALCO IS COOL
 
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