FrenchToasts
Smash Journeyman
win tournaments, trash talk, win more $$. prove all those theory pple wrong and gg.
theory
theory
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PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Dr Peepee
- Start date
Warhawk
Smash Lord
I started playing Falco because I liked how he felt and before I knew about competitive smash, not because where he is on the tier list, but yea a lot of people do look at the tier list when picking their main.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I find a lot of people start with a character that triggers nostalgia or whatever (Smash's roster has a tendency to do this) but then when people go competitive they decide to tier ***** because it's a logical choice if you're aiming purely to win. Sheik is good, Ness is bad. Not exactly rocket science.
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- Mar 14, 2011
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I've always liked Peach/Zelda/Falco, and I still use them to this day. If I truly wanted to mitigate all my troubles, I'd just focus on Falco, but this game is more than just tiers to me, personally.
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
Theorycrafting is an excellent way of coming up with ideas to implement in-game. It is generally a terrible way of proving a point.
D
Deleted member
Guest
from that tier list wiki, i voted on the 3rd one and on. i was too late for the first two.
i think peach is 5th @ shroudedone, not too far off from 4th.
i think peach is 5th @ shroudedone, not too far off from 4th.
Bones0
Smash Legend
lol @ switching to Falco to mitigate all your troubles. Definitely not the case.
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Well, ok, maybe I mean most of them. I don't have to worry about getting camped/first hits/having answers to everything as him as much as Peach. Whenever I play Falco, I feel so much less locked down by character. Like I can literally go about playing the game however I want.
But yes, Falco still has troubles.
@Umbreon: I just found it silly that she was considered a better character than Falco or Puff. Was her influence stronger than that of those two back then? And who represented her that strongly?
But yes, Falco still has troubles.
@Umbreon: I just found it silly that she was considered a better character than Falco or Puff. Was her influence stronger than that of those two back then? And who represented her that strongly?
CK Momentum
Smash Apprentice
i was watching thorn in GFs against otg yesterday and one thing i noticed he does really well:
after a shield pressure string he will just sit in his shield, particularly if the opponent is far enough away that they can't really grab so well. also he microed his spacing super well to avoid getting hit by docs usmash oos, and to be able to react to his other oos stuff.
some things i think i need to be working on defensively is
-knowing when its okay to shield and when its obvious they can run up grab, cos falco is really mobile oos and i dont take advantage of that fully.
-baiting something else when its obvious that continuing to attack the persons shield will get me punished.
- really smart and consistent isai drop lasers to stuff people when i go on the platforms. i like the platforms and i think they are really usable for falco. this is one of hte reasons i dont like fountain cos i like to laser a lot lol.
what other things are really helpful on the defensive as falco?
after a shield pressure string he will just sit in his shield, particularly if the opponent is far enough away that they can't really grab so well. also he microed his spacing super well to avoid getting hit by docs usmash oos, and to be able to react to his other oos stuff.
some things i think i need to be working on defensively is
-knowing when its okay to shield and when its obvious they can run up grab, cos falco is really mobile oos and i dont take advantage of that fully.
-baiting something else when its obvious that continuing to attack the persons shield will get me punished.
- really smart and consistent isai drop lasers to stuff people when i go on the platforms. i like the platforms and i think they are really usable for falco. this is one of hte reasons i dont like fountain cos i like to laser a lot lol.
what other things are really helpful on the defensive as falco?
Bones0
Smash Legend
Staying in shield after aerials is also really popular vs. Samus. I wish I just simple WD back more often. I do it like mad with Marth, but I suck at punishing after it with Falco.
unknown522
Some guy
When opponents are approaching from that kind of angle, you can usually cover yourself with moves that cover that direction. U-tilt, b-air, higher laser sometimes, (people would probably argue that u-smash can, but I wouldn't do it myself). The u-tilt hitbox is pretty ridiculous and you can a lot of times hit an opponent with it even if you're facing the wrong direction from most angles while they're above you.
Other ways to cover yourself is to just simply move away. Things like DD-grab and pivot -> laser/b-air.
Alternatively, since spacies both have a great oos game, they both have the option to shield an opponent coming from the air and shine (or u-smash vs some chars [but ofc that's more of a fox thing]).
Sorry for taking so long. Here's vs Bladewise:
Game 1:
• For the first 30 seconds, there were many times where you could’ve CC -> punished his moves. Things like weak dash attacks, b-air and stuff. You were in position and on the ground and open to be hit in most of those situations already, so you might as well have. It looks like you were making a lot of technical errors and then try to run away from him, or roll.
• @ 0:34 – you could’ve grabbed him when you hit that laser and he went to shield.
• @ 0:38 – same thing. But you hit the d-air anyway then shined. It was probably the safest option, but you got nothing for it.
• @ 0:48 – that autocancel b-air isn’t safe. You have to space it.
• @ 1:17 – that was a potential kill if you had shined him.
• @ 1:23 – that ledge hop laser could’ve been combo’d into something (not an aerial)
• @ 1:27 – you could’ve lived if you had DI’d that n-air
• @ 1:30 – he was definitely too far for that grab to land. I suggest an f-tilt or a u-smash, or even hitting with an aerial because he was holding a turnip and couldn’t hit you with an aerial unless he was floating somehow (but you were invincible anyway so that doesn’t matter).
• When he recovers onto the stage, you didn’t even contest it. Peach’s recovery from the ledge is pretty bad so you can cut off multiple options with b-air or laser. AC – b-air is pretty gay cuz you can usually cover airdodges with it as well. Just watch out for parasol stalling. You can space around it pretty easily though.
• For the next min or so, it looks like you’re messing up execution a lot (dropping combos, not shining, etc) and panicking from trying to avoid getting hit by the stitchface.
• @ 2:27 – you hit him with a laser while he was in the air, but you didn’t try to follow up
• @ 3:10 – you would’ve made it back with a phantasm. Despite that, you still could’ve had a chance to make it back with DI
• @ 3:16 - there was no attempt to pressure him or slow him down off your respawn. Laser laser laser.
• Later on in the stock, you mess up a lot of combo opportunities (or chances to hit him in general). Your shine missed after that backwards d-air, you didn’t shine after CCing his jab (though I think you were trying to), he came down from above you and you jumped into a u-air (I think that was a mistake too). Then you shot a high laser at the end and he walked under it and jabbed you for the win. They were just costly mistakes.
Game 2:
• So you’re kinda ****** him on the first stock but then he called an obvious grab, punished, and then ***** your stock due to a combination of that and also being too slow when you tried to dash attack him after hitting a laser. When he n-air’d you out of your phantasm, you could’ve DI’d better and then done it again (yes only 3 mistakes for a stock).
• You then hit another laser after you respawn but don’t do anything with it
• @ 4:45 – you were trying to shoot him down with those lasers. If you want to hit where he was floating, then you have to do a quick DJ (or FH) and aim your lasers at him.
• @ 4:47 – you shot a high laser again, thus being less able to put pressure on him when he was shielding (it was still possible but you didn’t go for it).
• 4:57 - another laser hit while he was in the air, but then you retreated for a second, then shielded, and didn’t get the combo
• @4:59 – the next couple of seconds, you keep missing important moves (b-air, grab, etc). Need to position better. It just looks like you’re randomly throwing out moves otherwise.
• @5:07 – d-smash this ledge-stalling crap. Or d-air him if you want (that’s kinda hard though). In general though you need to stand closer to him when he’s in that situation. He was way too much breathing room.
• On the rock transformation, he was in the worst spot possible to be vs a spacie. You could’ve either beaten him with shine-grab, or just doing a generic shield pressure until you hit him. There are also ledge things that you can abuse, but that’s kinda complicated and risky. This would help you to:
1. Prevent turnip pulls
2. Take advantage of the fact that he’s vulnerable when pulling/holding turnips
I personally hate trying to fight against chance/luck so I’m always in favour of removing that factor to the best of my ability
• After the rock stage changes back, you stop lasering once he starts approaching you again. You miss more moves and get punished for them. Eventually that leads to a loss of a stock
• @ 6:23 – you finally edgeguarded with b-air
• When he spawns and you hit the shine -> d-air, you should always try to u-tilt vs floaty/semi-floaty characters instead of shining again especially if you started the combo from the ground and continue on a platform.
• @ 6:34 – he double jabbed your shield and you could’ve punished him with a grab or shine oos
• @ 6:50 – you finally land a grab on him. But use the wrong throw. U-throw is your best throw in almost all matchups. Throwing them off the stage is really good to, but you weren’t at the edge of the stage when you f-throw him. You land another grab a bit later and b-throw him.
• @ 7:30 – you land a combo, but decide to n-air again instead of d-air. You definitely could’ve gotten at least 45% on him from that combo.
• @ 7:40 – you make kinda bad recovery decisions instead of simply landing on the stage or just going for the ledge with 1 jump and get punished each time this time.
• The last stock looks like a desperation attempt to get a quick kill to catch up. You really needed some grabs in there, or to land a hit or something.
End comments/thoughts:
- Better lasers; most of the time that you shoot them you is when you’re stationary. Move around with them. Approach with them. Retreat. Use them like another attack.
- Don’t stop lasering when he starts moving towards you. You do this almost every time. I think you may be afraid to get punished of something, but most of the time it’s not gonna happen as long as you place them properly.
- More u-tilt; use them during combos, or to start combos. Also to prevent his approaches when he’s floating above you
- Much more grab; you didn’t attempt to grab much, and when you did you usually missed. U-throw is really good.
- Better spacing; a lot of times you’re way too far to initiate any kind of engagement while keeping pressure with your lasers (fear of d-smash?)
- Retreating lasers; self-explanatory
- The use of n-air; approaching, and combo move. Like catching survival DI with n-air – d-air
- The use of dash attack vs airborne opponents at mid-high percents
- Laser -> dash attack; it’s pretty good vs floaties
- Oos game (if you absolutely have to shield); roll away, WD away, or shine
- Wait out his float; he can’t float forever so he’ll either have to attack or retreat at some point. If he drops into a laser, you may be able to get a combo off of it.
- Approach when he’s floating to try and mess with his spacing; a lot of times you sit back and laser, or FH then go to a platform. It’s not bad, but you do it almost every time.
- Attack from varying angles; platform drops and stuff to help you space and manuveur around his moves. I’m not saying to camp him, but pick better times to approach and also take advantage of openings.
- Edgeguarding with lots of b-air and/or lasers
- CC game
I’ll probably remember more later. If I do then I’ll post. If you have something to ask or suggest, just post here, msg, or txt I guess.
I would give you some advice vs eggz, but I kinda suck at the fox v falco matchup with both chars.
edit: oh yeah, there's a lot of times where you could hit him out of his float with a FH aerial, or SH u-air from below. You can probably find those times in the matches
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
hey guys, i've been experimenting with autocancelled short hop weak reverse bair in combos, both as a combo starter, and as a way to extend it. yesterday i did the following:
against a marth after her fthrew me at zero on PS: di'd the throw in, jabbed, then linked the jab to: running AC SH reverse bair (caught his DD) > dtilt (he dis to the plat, techs) > dj dair platform tech chase dair > fsmash > edgeguard. It inspired me to try out other things. as a combo starter i've only managed to get weak reverse bair > to dtilt/turnaround utilt/dash attack/grab to work so far, but it's so silly looking.
it would be really cool if other falcos would experiment and get back to me on this.
against a marth after her fthrew me at zero on PS: di'd the throw in, jabbed, then linked the jab to: running AC SH reverse bair (caught his DD) > dtilt (he dis to the plat, techs) > dj dair platform tech chase dair > fsmash > edgeguard. It inspired me to try out other things. as a combo starter i've only managed to get weak reverse bair > to dtilt/turnaround utilt/dash attack/grab to work so far, but it's so silly looking.
it would be really cool if other falcos would experiment and get back to me on this.
D
Deleted member
Guest
We had a tier 1 player named vidjogamer who was absolutely incredible at peach.
Naughty Pixel
Smash Apprentice
How exactly does Bair auto cancel? I've seen people talk about this alot but I don't really know what this is. How is it done?
G
genkaku
Guest
the better I get at this game the more it seems like there is to comprehend. I guess it's a good thing that I can pick up on more of it, but my goodness melee gets deep.
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
auto cancel is a term that means that the aerial finishes before you even land.
AvengerAngel
Smash Journeyman
^ omg this (she might be a bit better than Falcon but who cares. She's nowhere near as good as Fox/Falco/Sheik/Marth)
Also I love reverse weak Bair but I'm still working on it, it's kinda hard to do it consistently if your opponents DI well (at least for me). I like doing it on other spacies in FD to extend standard Dair-shine combos 8)
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Puff could be anywhere from 2nd to 7th, at least in my mind, now. I have bursts of, "OMG, she soooo ****!" mixed with sentiments of, "Wow, she sucks HARD." The fact that she only needs one read, wins vs Sheik/Marth/Falcon, shuts down Peach (this is still an uncertainty), and can stand up to spacies should be considered, though.
Beat!
Smash Master
Marth beats Puff (not necessarily by much, though). I can't back up this statement at all at the moment, but I'm almost convinced of it.
D
Deleted member
Guest
im not convinced that puff beats falcon might be pretty even actually
Bones0
Smash Legend
I use that a lot, actually. Turn around utilt and the occasional usmash are the only things I find consistently linking from it though.
Naughty Pixel
Smash Apprentice
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- 26,550
IC's Puff is apparently 70-30 tho according to choknater
Fortress | Sveet
▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,550
that stage is banned...
- Joined
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- Messages
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I guess we need a top level Marth to go up against Hbox to see for sure (I think that's one of Hbox's strong MUs), but her punishments on him are a lot stronger than his on her.
And I thought it was pretty much accepted by both sides that Puff handles Falcon. I know Puff mains think so, and I don't know of any Falcon who is super-proficient at Puff.
And I thought it was pretty much accepted by both sides that Puff handles Falcon. I know Puff mains think so, and I don't know of any Falcon who is super-proficient at Puff.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Mmm I think I'm alright at it but I don't think I can beat Hbox with my Falcon, no way. Though I've seen Mango's Falcon also beat Hbox though right?
G
genkaku
Guest
puff can do really nasty things to falcon and should gimp his recovery every time.
dthrow knee is just as gay, though.
dthrow knee is just as gay, though.
Bones0
Smash Legend
Pretty sure Mango's Falcon lost to Hbox at RoM 3 (I don't remember them playing Falcon vs. Puff ever before or after that).
D
Deleted member
Guest
ICs might very reasonably be better than CF overall based on the match-ups you'll come across in tournament. ICs are maybe worse than CF against marth/peach/other CFs but they're definitely better than CF against sheik/jpuff/falco and they don't have a stage like falcon's fountain of dreams where they struggle on it. ICs also have a stronger CP to FD than pretty much anything CF has at all.
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Ya but ICs have also a tough time with Ganon, Samus, and maybe other mid tiers. Which is why they cant be considered higher since they don't have many matchups they actually win.. they have a lot of evenish matchups at worst.
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
random nitpick: ICs might not be that bad against Samus
Niko45
Smash Master
WOW that thread is crazy!
TheCrimsonBlur
Smash Master
I'm a bit late to the low tier discussion, but I want to chime in cause its such an interesting topic:
Its a damn shame that low tiers are so underrepresented in the community but...I play Marth, Bones plays Falco, KK plays Sheik...as much as we all want the low tiers to develop its not like we are DOING anything about it. It seems a bit ridiculous for me to even ask the community to be more diverse when I'm a tier ***** myself lol. At this point, we're lucky that our results are so diverse; it seems like there are only 3 or 4 people playing each of the mid/low tiers in the room at every national yet 1 or 2 for each always makes bracket (well, moreso for the mid tiers). The ratio isn't as forgiving for the top tiers; a fact that is very counterintuitive to the concept of a tier list in the first place. Pools are a graveyard of Fox, Falco, Marths, Falcons, and Sheiks lol.
Also, I think KK missed the most important barrier of all: the mentality that a lot of people have when practicing discourages low tier mains. Even if the low tier main is winning, other players will complain that they aren't getting good practice because they'll never see that character in tournament....No one wants their practice partner to be a Yoshi main. So unless you live in an area which prides itself in low tier play (AZ), its very tough to get the motivation to stick with it.
Though I definitely rage when I hear someone say "go a real character" to a Samus or some ****. The peer pressure our community has gravitating people away from certain characters is pretty bad (see: Jigglypuff).
Its a damn shame that low tiers are so underrepresented in the community but...I play Marth, Bones plays Falco, KK plays Sheik...as much as we all want the low tiers to develop its not like we are DOING anything about it. It seems a bit ridiculous for me to even ask the community to be more diverse when I'm a tier ***** myself lol. At this point, we're lucky that our results are so diverse; it seems like there are only 3 or 4 people playing each of the mid/low tiers in the room at every national yet 1 or 2 for each always makes bracket (well, moreso for the mid tiers). The ratio isn't as forgiving for the top tiers; a fact that is very counterintuitive to the concept of a tier list in the first place. Pools are a graveyard of Fox, Falco, Marths, Falcons, and Sheiks lol.
Also, I think KK missed the most important barrier of all: the mentality that a lot of people have when practicing discourages low tier mains. Even if the low tier main is winning, other players will complain that they aren't getting good practice because they'll never see that character in tournament....No one wants their practice partner to be a Yoshi main. So unless you live in an area which prides itself in low tier play (AZ), its very tough to get the motivation to stick with it.
Though I definitely rage when I hear someone say "go a real character" to a Samus or some ****. The peer pressure our community has gravitating people away from certain characters is pretty bad (see: Jigglypuff).
Its basically an exact replica of the Marth boards today lol.
Niko45
Smash Master
No nothing in smashboards history can compare to how ****ing terrible the marth boards are now.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Well I could also mean that ICs have a close match-up with Samus.. further proves my point still.
Bones0
Smash Legend
When I practice, my character usage tends to look like this:
30% - Falco
25% - Fox
20% - Marth
20% - Ness
5% - Other
I only get to go to a tournament once a month IF THAT, so when I do I tend to stick heavily with Falco (80%), and a little bit of Fox/Marth/Ness (for the other 20%). I think my Ness has evolved a lot, but not as much as my other characters because of the lack of videos/discussion. I love innovating with Ness, and I try new stuff every day, but I only get like 1/10 things I try to actually be useful because I have no sense of direction for improvement to work with. With Falco, I can watch a few videos of someone WAY better than me and learn 3 solid new things in a matter of hours. It's comparable to following a map and exploring a few back roads vs. creating a map of an unexplored region on my own.
I definitely agree with the low tier main mentality being an issue though. Personally, I've never minded playing obscure characters, but I've heard many people complain about having to play vs. low tiers both in friendlies and in tournament.
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
Even though Marth beats Jigglypuff, there is not a single Marth player who is currently capable of playing the match up as patiently as you have to. Even M2K has said that he's far too impatient to play the match up correctly. Because of this fact, it could be argued that even though Marth beats Jigglypuff on an objective level, Puff still wins in practice.
Warhawk
Smash Lord
I love weak nair and bair and have been trying to incorporate them in everything for awhile now, but its hard to get consistency with what they lead into. I like catching semi-floaties with them after a down-tilt at lower percents though since it usually leads to a f-smash, dash attack, dair, or even another weak bair or nair.