PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[ShroudedOne]

Uthrow > fair on Marth is like a free 35-40 damage at low percents (probably not more than 10%) (And if they don't DI, I guess)

 

[Divinokage]

Something I don't really understand is how a psychological aspect of one character is different from another. I mean for me, it's either you destroy your opponent or you are the one getting killed, there's not really much more than that.. or maybe it's that I'm too simple to understand something like this, idk, someone explain please. lol.

 

[CK Momentum]

I think falco's Dash attack is the worst. It's so tempting to use cos it can combo into Dair and fsmash sometimes, but I usually just do it right into the guys sheild blahhhhh.

 

[Stevo]

Kage's playstyle is exactly 50% extremely solid, well-spaced Ganon play. And 50% lackadaisical nonsense ft. copious amounts of purple.

I thoroughly enjoyed that description.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

The psychological difference makes perfect sense. Just like there would be a psychological difference between someone who works in a factory and someone who writes programs.

 

[Winston]

Too hard to say which move of Falco's is the worst when they are all useful =\

Uthrow > fair on Marth is like a free 35-40 damage at low percents (probably not more than 10%) (And if they don't DI, I guess)

LOL

The psychological difference makes perfect sense. Just like there would be a psychological difference between someone who works in a factory and someone who writes programs.

???

 

[ShroudedOne]

Okay, so maybe it's like 30%. But it's still pretty good.

 

[Winston]

No I just thought the "free damage"... with two parentheticals was hilarious =)

You can make any of Falco's uthrow combos not guaranteed afaik if you don't DI the throw and SDI the lasers in a direction. It forces him to predict which direction you go in, I think.

 

[Divinokage]

The psychological difference makes perfect sense. Just like there would be a psychological difference between someone who works in a factory and someone who writes programs.

Say what? Both different people simply knows different things.. but they both do work doing what they know how to do... still don't understand.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

think he just meant someone who writes programs is more psychologically 'intimidating'(?) than a factory worker..i dunno he just chose a bad example.

There is definitely a difference in psychological effects from one character to another, falco by far being one of the best for it.

there is much more to it than being killed or killing;

Lasers are the first obvious reason. You're putting pressure on your opponent without killing them, though causing a nuisance/problem for them throughout the entire game.

Then you have falco's long combos. They are quite demolishing on your ego when you sit through those for as long as you do, compared to say, a ganon combo. Sure it sucks getting hit by your massive damage combos but they aren't so long that i'm like annoyed throughout the process, atleast nearly as much. Of course ganon can screw with your mentality too.

Then you have falcos technical ability in general. This scares people when falco is played right and FAST. You can be all over your opponent almost the entire match and still do it right(IE shiz)

Not to mention his shield pressure game, you have ALOT more to worry about and alot less chances of getting out of your shield sucessfully vs. him than like 99% of the cast, this makes people worry about even shielding in general.

those are all pretty heavily psychological affects compared to say, mario.


i just looked back and saw peeps already basically said this in that wall of text, so i'm not really sure how you didn't get it! =P
Maybe you're just underestimating the momentum/psychological affects that go on throughout a match.

 

[Druggedfox]

I think fair/jab are probably his worst moves overall. I'm not saying that they're useless by any means, but they're the worst because they're the most situational overall; situational both matchup wise, as well as in a few general-match spacings/%s/combos etc. Jab is really really good in falco dittos, but pretty mediocre vs. sheik/marth (not to say it doesn't have its uses... but w/e).

Upair can be used for killing vs floaties on a fairly consistent basis, it can be used for comboing in a lot of instances that I've already outlined, and some other stuff /I'm lazy

Upsmash is *amazing* and underused, even if only because I'm fairly certain that it's the only move that consistently true combos out of laser at reasonable spacings. Laser-->fsmash doesn't true combo, laser-->shine only works at certain spacings, etc. Laser is very easy to hit confirm into upsmash, and you can not only do it in neutral, but also defensively, aggressively... however you want. I frequently do it from ledgehop lasers, among other things. I only call it amazing because of its utility. Moves that are specific aren't as good overall unless they're very good at doing that one thing. Laser is obviously a move that you'll be using all over the place, and a lot of people when fighting falco will occasionally take a stray laser, particularly if they're in the air. I know it's weird that I point out a specific situation (after lasers) and call it a general utility move, but as I said: lasers are used in so many situations that the followup move (upsmash) becomes a general utility imo.

I considered saying dtilt was also pretty situational overall, which it is... but I think the universal ability to shield poke should be exploited more, and it gives it an edge over fair/jab (an edge in the sense that, all three are good for matchup specific setups/kills/combos but fair/jab lack that utility aspect).

I'm still unsure of what I think about ftilt. It's ridiculously good for footsies/zoning in a good number of scenarios: neutral game (more matchup specific), keeping them from getting on stage from the edge (more general), pressure without committing (spacing around shields and such). The main issue with this move is that while it has general utility, I'm not sure if it's good enough at that general utility role to really consider it good.

Probably could have said more about fair/jab/upair... eh, maybe later.

PP, if I asked you to give me one line/idea that is essentially to each matchup, could you do it? I'm not sure if you'd agree, but for the fox matchup, for example, I'd say something like "Look for openings while fox is landing", "Look for/Force awkward landings", or "Hit him when he lands." Whenever I watch you play, or talk about the fox matchup, I've noticed that the concept of hitting fox as he lands is probably one of the most essential to the matchup; it's where you get your openings, it's where fox is weakest, it happens all the time because fox spends a lot of the time in the air so as not to get locked down. I've certainly gotten the impression that it's probably the aspect of the matchup you abuse the most (correct me if I'm wrong), so I've sort of taken it to be one of the biggest essentials.

That said, I feel like understanding that sort of essential aspect of a matchup is *incredibly* useful in improving; it has certainly helped me understand matchups and know exactly what to look for/abuse. If you disagree/aren't up for it it's all good, but I think you're really good at understanding that aspect of matchups so it would be cool to hear your opinions on what's essential in the various relevant matchups.

 

[genkaku]

I say trollish 'cause a lot of the time with puff and peach a big part of the MU involves being more patient than the other player and obviously the best way to do that is to provoke them into getting impatient.
It's a general kind of statement, but you get the idea.

 

[Divinokage]

i just looked back and saw peeps already basically said this in that wall of text, so i'm not really sure how you didn't get it! =P
Maybe you're just underestimating the momentum/psychological affects that go on throughout a match.

Or maybe I'm just too used to it and don't see it anymore. For me getting owned makes no difference or whatever I have to deal with in a match. I don't know I mean each character has their tools and uses them how they like. For me the only reason why someone would get annoyed by something is because something in their mindset is not strong enough. When you learn to deal with basically every situation then it's just a matter of guesses.. So ya, I get your point but I still don't see it. lol.

 

[Deleted member]

fair/jab are the worst. neither eliminates options and doing either of them incorrectly can give the opponent options. upair is the same except it can kill in fringe spots, so that's more useful. dtilt is the best way to kill a sleeping jigglypuff, so that's more useful. everything else is gravy status.

psychological momentum is very real for the falco player, but the falco player should focus on it for himself, falco is 100% a confidence character. getting into the mind of the opponent though is a joke. just kill them.

 

[Tee ay eye]

i nearly **** myself when people were saying fair and jab were bad because i opened the thread, left, came back, and thought i was in the marth boards LOOOOLLL

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

getting into your opponents mind is largely part of this game..

 

[Dr Peepee]

Something I don't really understand is how a psychological aspect of one character is different from another. I mean for me, it's either you destroy your opponent or you are the one getting killed, there's not really much more than that.. or maybe it's that I'm too simple to understand something like this, idk, someone explain please. lol.

Well Kage, from a solely character-based perspective, you can have different psychological effects. The people stay the same, but characters can put them in positions where they can feel more or less in control of a match just because of the way the characters work. For example, Ganon could feel quite overwhelmed if he has a Fox all over his shield due to the number of options he has to deal with Fox(not many as you know haha). Consider the Fox ditto though. If one Fox gets on the other Fox's shield, then the shielding Fox has a fair number of anti-pressure options(Shine OOS, upsmash OOS, in addition to regular defensive options like rolls and all combined with shield DI and a shorter character height so it's harder to shield stab him, giving him less to worry about). This is just one(somewhat extreme) example, but you can see here how characters can influence the people to feel differently just based on the number of available options one character can reduce another character to in a given situation.

I think falco's Dash attack is the worst. It's so tempting to use cos it can combo into Dair and fsmash sometimes, but I usually just do it right into the guys sheild blahhhhh.

Falco's dash attack is <3. I used to spam the mess outta that move(and got ***** half the time for it haha).

I don't use it much anymore but it's one of Falco's fastest approaches if you're trying to catch someone, and it combos well. I suppose it's not seen too much these days though for it's somewhat annoying cooldown time(sometimes it seems just enough and sometimes just a tad too slow for me) and how often people can see it coming and shield when you think they should still be in(well-spaced) lag and you eat a shield grab or move OOS.

Maybe I'll play with dash attack more. I certainly have neglected the move lately haha. It could be down there now that I think about it, even though it's pretty good.

I think fair/jab are probably his worst moves overall. I'm not saying that they're useless by any means, but they're the worst because they're the most situational overall; situational both matchup wise, as well as in a few general-match spacings/%s/combos etc. Jab is really really good in falco dittos, but pretty mediocre vs. sheik/marth (not to say it doesn't have its uses... but w/e).

Upair can be used for killing vs floaties on a fairly consistent basis, it can be used for comboing in a lot of instances that I've already outlined, and some other stuff /I'm lazy

Upsmash is *amazing* and underused, even if only because I'm fairly certain that it's the only move that consistently true combos out of laser at reasonable spacings. Laser-->fsmash doesn't true combo, laser-->shine only works at certain spacings, etc. Laser is very easy to hit confirm into upsmash, and you can not only do it in neutral, but also defensively, aggressively... however you want. I frequently do it from ledgehop lasers, among other things. I only call it amazing because of its utility. Moves that are specific aren't as good overall unless they're very good at doing that one thing. Laser is obviously a move that you'll be using all over the place, and a lot of people when fighting falco will occasionally take a stray laser, particularly if they're in the air. I know it's weird that I point out a specific situation (after lasers) and call it a general utility move, but as I said: lasers are used in so many situations that the followup move (upsmash) becomes a general utility imo.

I considered saying dtilt was also pretty situational overall, which it is... but I think the universal ability to shield poke should be exploited more, and it gives it an edge over fair/jab (an edge in the sense that, all three are good for matchup specific setups/kills/combos but fair/jab lack that utility aspect).

I'm still unsure of what I think about ftilt. It's ridiculously good for footsies/zoning in a good number of scenarios: neutral game (more matchup specific), keeping them from getting on stage from the edge (more general), pressure without committing (spacing around shields and such). The main issue with this move is that while it has general utility, I'm not sure if it's good enough at that general utility role to really consider it good.

Probably could have said more about fair/jab/upair... eh, maybe later.

PP, if I asked you to give me one line/idea that is essentially to each matchup, could you do it? I'm not sure if you'd agree, but for the fox matchup, for example, I'd say something like "Look for openings while fox is landing", "Look for/Force awkward landings", or "Hit him when he lands." Whenever I watch you play, or talk about the fox matchup, I've noticed that the concept of hitting fox as he lands is probably one of the most essential to the matchup; it's where you get your openings, it's where fox is weakest, it happens all the time because fox spends a lot of the time in the air so as not to get locked down. I've certainly gotten the impression that it's probably the aspect of the matchup you abuse the most (correct me if I'm wrong), so I've sort of taken it to be one of the biggest essentials.

That said, I feel like understanding that sort of essential aspect of a matchup is *incredibly* useful in improving; it has certainly helped me understand matchups and know exactly what to look for/abuse. If you disagree/aren't up for it it's all good, but I think you're really good at understanding that aspect of matchups so it would be cool to hear your opinions on what's essential in the various relevant matchups.

I was thinking jab myself to be honest, but dash attack also seems up there. Fair.....I'll get back to you on that haha. I'm seeing if I can apply that move in other ways. =p

And interesting that laser to upsmash really true combos. I'm going to play with this because if it works then that's big for Falco imo(good way to kill on floaties and combo on FF'ers imo).

Yeah Dtilt is down there for me as well, but it's use as a killing tool is sick. I feel like shield stabbing with it is kinda tough to do consistently(seems to vary when it works, even with somewhat consistent shield size). I do like Dtilt as a combo move once in a while though, so it has that going for itself as well(and enough reach to **** from a CC imo).

Haha once again, I agree with your feelings on Ftilt. I'm planning on toying with that move though to see if I can exploit it in its own right. Zoning with it is severely underused in this metagame anyway, so the surprise factor could make it **** if nothing else.




Hehehehe, you know my Fox strategy. =p


And I could try to break other matchups down into a sentence or two like that, but generally I'm still working out the kinks on some of them into an easy format because I'm thinking more clearly again(just need better people to play to make it concrete honestly).


I'll give it a quick shot:


Fox- abuse landing lag. don't stop comboing unless you can throw/smash him offstage.

Marth- get him above you and don't worry about direct combos(as much as you would vs FF'ers....aka get Marth in a bad position and keep punishing it until he dies). don't fear his shield(even if he shows that he can handle the pressure).

Sheik- get her above you(like Marth) or offstage asap and continually punish her. CC tilts and expect her to CC.

Ditto- keep your laser out or find a way to avoid their laser. then same as fox.

Puff(my puff strategy is getting stupid **** I feel)- she's grounded=laser, she's jumping but low=Bair maybe Dair, if she's higher then FH Bair(or threaten with it). don't be afraid to edgeguard her.

Peach- try to get on the same height plane as her, possibly before she gets there(if she's floating then get on a platform, if she's grounded then go to the ground basically). respect CCs.



Do you want me to do more? Maybe this'll spark some discussion regardless haha.

I say trollish 'cause a lot of the time with puff and peach a big part of the MU involves being more patient than the other player and obviously the best way to do that is to provoke them into getting impatient.
It's a general kind of statement, but you get the idea.

Do you think it's possible for these characters to be aggressive?







Edit @ umbreon: do you feel it is always better to play the character than the opponent? if so, why?

 

[Druggedfox]

@Tai... That was soooo great

@PP

I forgot dash attack, definitely up there. I know you like fair a lot, so I'm pretty interested in seeing what you can do with it, assuming that you really think there might be some good stuff with it.

Yeah, laser-->upsmash is ****. Ledgehop lasers to upsmash happens in sooo many of my matches, it *is* a really good kill on floaties, and a lot of the times when you're pushing positional advantages rather than comboing you can abuse a lot of the stray lasers more efficiently with a guaranteed punish.

Hmm I know you use dtilt a lot in combo from watching you, but I'm not always sure that it's the best choice or sometimes I'm not sure exactly why. Could you elaborate at all on it? On shield poking... Yeah it's inconsistent, but I'm still trying >_>

The one liners were pretty good, thanks I had most of those in mind, but definitely learned some new ones too (particularly against the floaties). While those tend to be obvious, I think they're *really* important to remember and I hope they spark discussion. If more people reminded themselves of those things (myself most definitely included) not only would they perform better, but I think they would improve faster as well due to a better fundamental understanding of what their goals should be.

The only other character I'd be particularly interested in is falcon. If anyone else is interested they can ask, but those were great! I'll probably spend the rest of the day thinking about them haha =P

 

[unknown522]

upair is falco's worst move.

naw man. It's decent. It has a couple of uses:
- Setting up certain combos
- killing sometimes when other moves won't reach
- beating aerials directly above you
- coming off the ledge sometimes
- DI traps
- definitely more uses, but not thinking of them atm

i nearly **** myself when people were saying fair and jab were bad because i opened the thread, left, came back, and thought i was in the marth boards LOOOOLLL

haha

 

[0Room]

Something I don't really understand is how a psychological aspect of one character is different from another. I mean for me, it's either you destroy your opponent or you are the one getting killed, there's not really much more than that.. or maybe it's that I'm too simple to understand something like this, idk, someone explain please. lol.

PP already covered this but I wanna elaborate on it more

The psychological aspect is:
What are my options
What are his options

Different characters have different options, strengths, and weaknesses.
I'm sure you remember when I was saying how you used CF like your Ganon, and how he has a different skill set than Ganon even though the moves are the same.
Through his differences of speed and combo ability/combo trees the way he's played is changed, his options change, and therefore the psychology behind him/against him changes as well.

Everything make sense now?

 

[Deleted member]

Edit @ umbreon: do you feel it is always better to play the character than the opponent? if so, why?

yes definitely. if you play the character, you are essentially adhering to the rules of the game and choosing to use them as the basis for your decision-making. since these rules are absolute, the things you do are relatively stronger in that they are guaranteed; that is, the game cannot fundamentally change mid-match. it is the same it has been since 2001.

when you choose to play the opponent, you open yourself up for no real utility. already you are choosing to adhere to the rules of your opponent. you are saying that you're okay in engaging respect/disrespect situations when you don't have to. if your opponent is bad or has bad habits, yes you can exploit them, but your punishments will only yield about the same amount of reward by playing to the rules of the game. example, if you edge guard a fox in the mirror with bairs correctly, it's a guaranteed kill. if you edge guard the opposing fox because he always ledge jumps into your upsmash or something, you'll still get the same reward, the free kill, but it's not guaranteed. you're still exploiting your opponent, but it's not absolute. the game has rules that allow your opponent to circumvent your strategy, making it weaker. ie they can do something about it. by choosing to fight the opponent rather than their character, you essentially give the opponent a chance to outplay you when you didn't have to, and in some cases they will. the ability for your opponent to adapt and defeat you is a hole you can easily cover with a top tier character. not so much with a low tier.

i think you should try to play against the charter and player both obviously, but if you have to go in blind to choose between the two, you should pick character first, which makes sense. if i was going to play you with fox and someone told you i sidestep with fox a lot, would you base your entire strategy around my sidestepping or that i'm playing fox? I hope this is easy for you to answer.

sometimes when you're behind and you need to catch up, it's a better strategy to play risky, so trying to play the opponent instead isn't a terrible idea. but if you're in a winning position, you should definitely just try to press your advantage as hard as possible, which can include just not losing it.

styles based around positioning and control are the best styles in the game, character dependent. it says that you are only interesting in doing things from an advantage that the opponent cannot do anything about. this is great in 2 ways. first, it secures your victory on multiple layers. they have to get around guaranteed strategies long enough to do something back to you, which is already hard. second though, they have to do more steps to do it. they must establish some kind of positional parity to dislodge your control, and must then set up their own, and THEN execute their strategy. this is simply not easy to do. it's very hard to steal momentum back from guaranteed strategies based on positional advantage.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I love your posts, Mow.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I feel that M2K vs Mango (any semi-recent set) disproves this. I mean, if always go for what works, can't your opponent just exploit that? It makes it easier for them to know what you're going to do, because it will be the right option. I think it was Mango, who said that the best option is not always the right one?

But maybe I'm oversimplifying it.

 

[JPOBS]

I think falco's Dash attack is the worst. It's so tempting to use cos it can combo into Dair and fsmash sometimes, but I usually just do it right into the guys sheild blahhhhh.

i retract my original statement about upair.

Dash attack is falco's worst move. I had forgot about it because I almost never use this move.


fair is amazing at poking platforms and comboing. has the most range in the front and above falco, which happens to be one of his weakest areas. fair hits spots that no other move can easily hit. fair is the future of the falco metagame. <3 fair.

dtilt is too good for throwing out reactively when you see them sdi your dair so the shine will miss. Sure you could jump->shine something, OR you could dtilt- > fair -> 0-death ^__^

 

[Veetaak]

dash attack is amazing imo. Good way to punish FFers/semi floaties when they miss techs cuz it combos into alot

 

[Dr Peepee]

@Tai... That was soooo great

@PP

I forgot dash attack, definitely up there. I know you like fair a lot, so I'm pretty interested in seeing what you can do with it, assuming that you really think there might be some good stuff with it.

Yeah, laser-->upsmash is ****. Ledgehop lasers to upsmash happens in sooo many of my matches, it *is* a really good kill on floaties, and a lot of the times when you're pushing positional advantages rather than comboing you can abuse a lot of the stray lasers more efficiently with a guaranteed punish.

Hmm I know you use dtilt a lot in combo from watching you, but I'm not always sure that it's the best choice or sometimes I'm not sure exactly why. Could you elaborate at all on it? On shield poking... Yeah it's inconsistent, but I'm still trying >_>

The one liners were pretty good, thanks I had most of those in mind, but definitely learned some new ones too (particularly against the floaties). While those tend to be obvious, I think they're *really* important to remember and I hope they spark discussion. If more people reminded themselves of those things (myself most definitely included) not only would they perform better, but I think they would improve faster as well due to a better fundamental understanding of what their goals should be.

The only other character I'd be particularly interested in is falcon. If anyone else is interested they can ask, but those were great! I'll probably spend the rest of the day thinking about them haha =P

I have a hard time connecting laser to upsmash. =( I think I just forget though because I set it up plenty of times I think just a bit ago haha.

And yeah I think Fair is useful in a few cases not yet explored, but I'm slow to utilize them atm because I'm still making myself solid all around before expanding a specific move like that. I'm hoping I have at least one of my uses put together by the time RoM rolls around.

Dtilt is **** in combos because if they DI in then it's like a sorta uptilt with respect to knockback but they can't go behind you like uptilt can do sometimes. Sets up for nice moves. If they DI away then you can laser chase them or they can blow their jump(usually by the edge) at a lower percent and then I just need to knock them out of the air.

The one-liners **** I agree haha. Good things to base your play off of if you're feeling shook.

uh, Falcon? hm just one? =p

Falcon- laser locks him down, mix up DI and techs/no tech on throws, and Bair beats his aerials(usually).

yes definitely. if you play the character, you are essentially adhering to the rules of the game and choosing to use them as the basis for your decision-making. since these rules are absolute, the things you do are relatively stronger in that they are guaranteed; that is, the game cannot fundamentally change mid-match. it is the same it has been since 2001.

when you choose to play the opponent, you open yourself up for no real utility. already you are choosing to adhere to the rules of your opponent. you are saying that you're okay in engaging respect/disrespect situations when you don't have to. if your opponent is bad or has bad habits, yes you can exploit them, but your punishments will only yield about the same amount of reward by playing to the rules of the game. example, if you edge guard a fox in the mirror with bairs correctly, it's a guaranteed kill. if you edge guard the opposing fox because he always ledge jumps into your upsmash or something, you'll still get the same reward, the free kill, but it's not guaranteed. you're still exploiting your opponent, but it's not absolute. the game has rules that allow your opponent to circumvent your strategy, making it weaker. ie they can do something about it. by choosing to fight the opponent rather than their character, you essentially give the opponent a chance to outplay you when you didn't have to, and in some cases they will. the ability for your opponent to adapt and defeat you is a hole you can easily cover with a top tier character. not so much with a low tier.

i think you should try to play against the charter and player both obviously, but if you have to go in blind to choose between the two, you should pick character first, which makes sense. if i was going to play you with fox and someone told you i sidestep with fox a lot, would you base your entire strategy around my sidestepping or that i'm playing fox? I hope this is easy for you to answer.

sometimes when you're behind and you need to catch up, it's a better strategy to play risky, so trying to play the opponent instead isn't a terrible idea. but if you're in a winning position, you should definitely just try to press your advantage as hard as possible, which can include just not losing it.

styles based around positioning and control are the best styles in the game, character dependent. it says that you are only interesting in doing things from an advantage that the opponent cannot do anything about. this is great in 2 ways. first, it secures your victory on multiple layers. they have to get around guaranteed strategies long enough to do something back to you, which is already hard. second though, they have to do more steps to do it. they must establish some kind of positional parity to dislodge your control, and must then set up their own, and THEN execute their strategy. this is simply not easy to do. it's very hard to steal momentum back from guaranteed strategies based on positional advantage.

Is there any reason you can't apply pressure through stage control from a player vs player perspective? For example, if I play Marth and do Fairs on the opposing Fox who is by the edge in such a way that he feels pressured and can only escape in a couple ways, then it may seem as though I am playing to the character. However, if my intent is to put pressure on the opposing player through efficient means then could I not also achieve the same effect? Could I not also select the option that I feel like a player is most likely to do(based on his personality or tendencies already observed...such as Fox FH'ing OOS vs holding shield until he falls to the edge or rolling) and punish quickly? If this is what you define as playing both the player and the character then it seems as though it could be worded to include approaches to the game such as this. The positioning game and the potential to maximize control are there, but focusing on how to contain a player in a secure area and fluster them seems to be roughly similar to forcing characters into bad situations and exploiting them.

That is essentially how I'd apply playing against a player anyway(which obviously adjusts on a character to character basis but the individual tactics remain the same mostly). My goal in writing this is just to have us be careful in how we advise people on a broad scale(broad in terms of both audience and concepts btw).





Edit: I played against Twitch's Sheik today and learned TONS about the matchup and myself.

I used SOOOOO much dash attack against Sheik haha. That move ***** never mind what I said about it before. XD

DL is a good stage for Sheik vs Falco. I'm almost positive.

 

[KirbyKaze]

If dash attack is truly Falco's worst move then my god this character is broken.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah nah no way. I think I'm changing it(my personal decision) to Ftilt unless something changes my mind.

Need to play with that move more though. I generally get along without it fine whenever people are on the ground, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't see how useful it is I suppose....

 

[genkaku]

I think that other characters can be played aggressively (obvious i.e. armada/hbox) but because of the limitations of the characters it's not as beneficial, especially when you just plain aren't as good at the game as Armada and Hbox. I do appreciate their ability to swing from passive to aggressive and back, though.

 

[~Twitch~]

sheik is soooooooooo easy.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Possibly, but let's play again tomorrow to be sure.

 

[Dark Hart]

How do you learn like that Kevin? I never learn anything about match-ups from playing people, like never

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I'm way behind but im not quoting. What i meant is that people who have put dedication into something tend to be shaped by it. If you were to work in a factory for 2 years your view on the world would change, and compared to someone who sat in an office for 2 years and wrote code would see the world much differently. A factory worker would be more likely to think materialistically and spontaneously while a programmer would more likely think abstractly and be detached from the "hard day's work" life style.

Similarly, someone who puts 2 years into learning ganon would think very differently than someone who put 2 years into falco. A ganon player might tend to value each action since both the risk and the reward are very high, while a falco player might value mobility and pressure since falco has the tools to maintain control but has a hard time when the control is lost.

 

[Dr Peepee]

@Dark Hart: Very briefly, I go into the match with a set plan and certain counters to situations that frequently arise. If I get surprised by something or something doesn't work out, then I try to take note of it and fix it asap. Today, I wasn't too great at that and forced a lot of things I shouldn't have. Usually when I'm calm it works though, which is different from how I used to be(fired up to play meant I could focus and play better).

Basically, if I got hit, then why did I get hit? How do I adjust my game plan according to that hit? Same things for when I get a hit, but that's easier to forget for me right now, so it may be better to just focus on why you got hit for now(since that worked for me for so long, anyway).

 

[unknown522]

Yeah nah no way. I think I'm changing it(my personal decision) to Ftilt unless something changes my mind.

Need to play with that move more though. I generally get along without it fine whenever people are on the ground, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't see how useful it is I suppose....

f-tilt > rapid jab.

I personally think it's better than f-air too.

 

[Battlecow]

@mow- I read your posts a couple times to make sure I was getting it right. You're saying that mindgames have no place in melee because you could always just play better than the opponent and win. This is ridiculous; at human levels of play, situations will always arise where you are only able to beat your opponent by guessing his next move and planning for it (RPS situations, I've heard them called). What happens if both people follow your advice (as if that were possible) and just "play by the rules of the game"? Getting inside your opponent's head is critical in all fighting games, and I don't need to know melee well to know that that applies in melee too.

 

[Melomaniacal]

If we're talking about moves strictly when they connect, I guess I'd say f-tilt is Falco's worse. Which really says something because that move is super useful pretty often.

If we're talking about moves in general, I'd say dash attack is his worst. It just gets punished so hard when you miss.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

dash attack is amazing stfu.


dair has got to be his worst

 

[Druggedfox]

Wait... did you have any doubt that DL was definitely good for falco vs sheik???

 

[ShroudedOne]

Isn't Sheik generally bad on that stage, though? Or is it only in that matchup?