bolt.
Smash Ace
I think it was discussed a little while back, but how do you guys feel about laser -> pivot bair to set up edge guards or get kills?
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PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Dr Peepee
- Start date
Bones0
Smash Legend
Ehh, are you talking about any character or situation specifically? If someone is by the ledge I will often be lasering for pressure and pivoting ac bairs to cover OoS options, but I don't see a reason to force the two together all the time. If you always laser -> pivot bair they will just realize it and wait for the bair before moving. If you are just mixing up dash dance laser and the occasional pivot ac bair you'll have a lot more success. Depending on the player, laser -> grab is usually a lot safer because people tend to hold their shield longer when they are afraid of getting hit off stage, and uthrow usually leads into at least an edge guard, if not a dair spike. If you mix up both you can cover shielding with grabs and spot dodging/jumping OoS with bairs (ac bairs usually also let you react to cross up rolls, but obviously the goal of the dash dance before all of this is to bait all of these reactions including rolling).
porc
Smash Journeyman
hello
i think i lack of general advice vs ganon
here's a video a a recent set vs Qlex's ganon : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTc-xKJFceY
do some of you have general advices like, when to attack, what to look out for etc... ? or some critisism towards the video ?
thanks
i think i lack of general advice vs ganon
here's a video a a recent set vs Qlex's ganon : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTc-xKJFceY
do some of you have general advices like, when to attack, what to look out for etc... ? or some critisism towards the video ?
thanks
Legend4ryFlower
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2011
- Messages
- 63
This could be very wrong or partially wrong, but here goes:
1. You dont have to approach him. I felt like sometimes you approached just to fill in a gap in the action of the match, and he just outspaced you for it
2. Dont willingly position yourself against the ledge. You did this and got hid a lot cause you jumped into his attacks. .
These were very general and probably something that you know already. You seemed very solid on your punishes and obviously know what you are doing.
But I feel like it needs to be emphasized that ganon is really really slow and youre falco. You dont have to approach if you dont want to, and you can easily just laser him to force him to react (not really camp, just force him to do something other than sit on the other side of the stage).
@end of match 1: =C
Watching the 2nd match, you really need to watch what he is spacing at you. pretty much everything you did in match 1 was from a short hop, and he keeps full hopping and throwing out a moves where, if you fullhop and caught him in them, would easily start a combo or get him off the edge. I feel like you need to catch on that hes spacing to hit your short hop lasers/short hop approaches.
Lastly, dont be afraid to grab or shine grab. very underused mechanics imo, and you put ganon above you a lot of times, which is good for you.
Hope that helps, if you disagree, then maybe Im wrong.
bolt.
Smash Ace
I meant use it more like a mixup. Not as a bread and butter approach.
Btw did I play you at pound 5? If I did we played by the water/entrance on day 2 and it was falco dittos. I had a lot of fun playing you... if that was you.
porc
Smash Journeyman
Thanks Legend4ryFLower 
i agree ! especially on the dangerous placement at the ledge. i dont quite know my zones vs ganon i feel.. he's always surprising me.
i agree ! especially on the dangerous placement at the ledge. i dont quite know my zones vs ganon i feel.. he's always surprising me.
Legend4ryFlower
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2011
- Messages
- 63
Yeah I hope that helped. You play a lot smarter than a lot of falcos that I see. You remind me of th0rns falco, in that your play emphasizes spacing more than the typical falco, if that makes sense. Very fun to watch too.Thanks Legend4ryFLower
i agree ! especially on the dangerous placement at the ledge. i dont quite know my zones vs ganon i feel.. he's always surprising me.
You have a lot of potential as well, keep it up!
trahhSTEEZY
Smash Champion
just gotta remember how slow ganon is, and how you don't have to jump into his fatty slow aerials.
if he's in the air, don't try and challenge him. wait till hes grounded and hold him down with lasers, i feel like this is the biggest issue for you
i also wouldn't suggest ever being above ganon on a platform, he just uaired you all day from it
also you need to dominate him off stage. as falco, ganon really should never be able to recover, don't rush yourself by jumping out there and dairing, just hold the ledge and dair/bair when the times right.
worst situation you hold the ledge till he recovers right next to you, then you have a free hit/combo starter.
i feel like you missed tonssss of free ledgeguards. seems like the set would've been easily in your favor had you gotten these ledgeguards more often
also thank you bones for the critique, i took in all of it, should be real helpful next time =)
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Yes definitely a common occurence I see is, people do not respect Ganon's uair. You really have to go away from platforms when Ganon is below you.
Bones0
Smash Legend
Yeah, that might have been me, especially if it was a red Falco cause no one plays red. lol
unknown522
Some guy
so sorry moose. I haven't critiqued your vid yet.
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2008
- Messages
- 19,345
Assuming they are on the ground, should fox or falco be able to shine falco out of a dair -> shine at 0% when not crouch canceled?
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
@Trahh, I haven't seen the match you were critiquing the vs ganon stuff, so I could be taking what you said out of context but:
Just as a general thought, I definitely wouldn't say that falco shouldn't challenge ganon while hes in the air. A big part of what can make that matchup (and the peach matchup) easier is hitting them while they're in the air, but before their moves actually come out. Sometimes respecting your opponent's space a bit too much is exactly what they need; I definitely think a huge aspect of fighting slow characters that rely on their air game is exploiting them while they're in the air, not just waiting until they're back on the ground.
Just as a general thought, I definitely wouldn't say that falco shouldn't challenge ganon while hes in the air. A big part of what can make that matchup (and the peach matchup) easier is hitting them while they're in the air, but before their moves actually come out. Sometimes respecting your opponent's space a bit too much is exactly what they need; I definitely think a huge aspect of fighting slow characters that rely on their air game is exploiting them while they're in the air, not just waiting until they're back on the ground.
Bones0
Smash Legend
At low %s they do that rocking back motion when you hit them with dair, but they are still in stun so the only way they will be able to shine you is by crouch canceling or if you just wait too long to do your next move (shine, pivot utilt, grab, w/e).
OOOOOKAY, so I'm mad tired but I'm still awake enough to do critiques so here we go.
0:08- Waited too long to aerial. You could have also stayed under Marth and forced his DJ and punished him.
0:10- Don't think DD'ing is enough for Falco alone. It very rarely is unlike with Marth. It's okay to run away from that approach with or maybe Bair into it and see what happens, but in that instance I'd have just retreated and tried to establish some laser control.
0:12- Pretty sure shine would have connected and maybe something like upsmash could have taken his jump. I suppose you could have just waited and punished his DJ as he came down though.
0:15- You had a free punish because he was in lag so no need to spotdodge.
0:17- I recommend lasers to hold Marth in place sometimes. Marth's WD is super long so it can outspace approaching aerials like that. There are a variety of ways to beat that situation though like not jabbing or by double jabbing slowly or dash attacking(that thing you should never do in shield pressure but awesome if it works).
0:18- Trying to approach with Dair from that spacing is pretty but you can make it work. He didn't move afterward so you might have been free from being shield grabbed and could have tried something like Dtilt to shield stab since you were spaced away from him anyway.
0:29- Doesn't quite combo at that %. Instead, you could Nair/Fair to carry Marth, dash attack sets up stuff, Dair puts him down and he may miss the tech for another free hit or an easyish tech chase to stuff. There's more but that's a good place to start.
0:37- I guess tech skill kept you from getting there.
0:49- Never laser on when Marth is that close, and I guess get used to Falco's stun so you know better than trying to up-B right in Marth's face. I'd have side B'd or maybe shined or done an aerial I guess....that's a pretty bad situation lol.
1:01- Too early for Dsmash. See if you can combo him more or bait that swing into another combo move.
1:05- All I can say about this is that you confined yourself to one place too long so if Marth knows to grab early for some reason like that then you can get jank'd out. Maybe grab?
1:12- The FH followup is not the best thing to do to catch DI away. Sometimes you gotta shoot them with double lasers and sometimes you just gotta run over from below and go into them/wait.
Yeah looks like you just give up a decent amount of stage and don't go in a lot like you need to do with Falco to be more successful(going in=approaching from a dash usually but holding stage can make this work in a way too). Fix that and your combos(always FH'ing even if they DI away just dash/WD or whatever towards them) and you'll be better off.
0:04- Angel yourself into the opponent so you can follow their DI so the shine won't miss.
0:09- Don't guess on the missed tech! Wait for the tech or land on the platform first then react.
0:14- Make sure you WD/walk into the other Falco before doing the shine. Shine spacing seems a little off so far.
0:16- Super late Bair.
0:28- Good read, but the Fsmash was too slow. Either work on your reaction time or grab combo or Dair into stuff you react to.
0:30- You whiffed a Nair OOS(a bad idea anyway) then sat in shield while you got shot up. Lasers don't stun much so just drop the shield and get hit and move or WD OOS away or even FH away so you can relieve the pressure on yourself. You could also laser OOS to immediately attempt to reverse pressure.
0:38- Side B into Falco walking away is bad. Make sure you are closer and the other Falco isn't walking away/acting like they're anticipating the move first. It's generally unsafe to side B into the middle of the stage anyway.
0:54- Finally got shined after you kept having awkward moments. I'm not sure what to tell you except to familiarize yourself with these situations. If the other Falco isn't shooting then you need to be shooting or maneuvering your way in. If you get Dair'd while you're jumping at low %s you can shine him first. Stuff like that may help.
1:10- Nair onstage is bad, especially from that high. Your landing lag will suck because you're already putting a move you're vulnerable from below during out there. Stick to Dairs/Fairs/shine turnaround Bairs if you have to do an aerial, or do more wavelands onstage/side B cancels/regular getup options/DJ shenanigans.
1:21- You shot like 4 lasers in a row when he was shielding lol. don't wait for one to hit before moving around or going in. you have the lasers out so you can control him. Move around and pressure him since he's stuck shielding and you have the control!
I think that's enough to work on for now. =)
3:25- That Dair won't work. Fox has all year to see you double jump and get out of the way to punish. You could have just fallen off of the platform or maybe double lasered onto it again. That cancel was pretty cool lol.
3:27- Burning your DJ is awful in general and Fox will eat you up for it. Generally you don't to be directly above Fox when he's free to move like that because he can just run around your options and hit you. You lucked out here but don't do this in the future.
disclaimer: this stuff does work sometimes because of how fast Falco's fall speed is but that doesn't make it a good idea much at all.
3:31- okay I could be fine with all of this except the fallthrough Nair. You had time to react to the tech and Nair wouldn't have stunned long enough for a combo anyway. Just run off/drop through the platform and work from there(unless they tech in place then you could shine or Dair).
3:33- Because you didn't hit Fox with the Nair, then the pressure is basically over. trying to grab after that won't work because Fox will easily be on the move by then because most people don't feel pressured in that situation(a pressure move whiffing). You should react to Fox in that situation since he'll be the one making the first move more often since he's trying to escape pressure.
3:41- why try to combo with laser to dash attack(at that percent anyway)? Nair or dair are much easier to comb out of. You also could have comboed waveshines if you wanted to because that's pretty easy and lets you get comfortable comboing if need be.
3:45- Good Bair, but then when you forced Fox into his shield again, you just ran away. Take advantage of your pressure situations without leaving them!
3:51- % was a tad too low for Dsmash(on that particular part of the stage). Maybe another Dair to stuff or Dtilt to stuff or a laser reset to stuff if there was time could have been good.
3:58- Bad AC Bair. Almost no one will jump after having a delayed Bair hit their shield, so do something different(you could do another delayed Bair I suppose lol).
4:04- Aside from the obvious, you lasered too close to Fox. DJ on, aerial on, side B cancel in some form, regular getup options, wavelanding onstage are all good options to use too.
Your big issue is really your jumping thing that Fox keeps ****** you for. It's only when you're directly above him though, as the other times you can safely position yourself to safely get a laser out or trick him and Dair. Work on getting directly above fox less and those combos and shield pressure and recovery I mentioned.
Also I'll respond to that Fsmash question you had in a bit.
Do not challenge Ganon as he has a move out or is falling unless you're using a laser first or waiting until he lands to attack him(you can hit him in the air before he does his moves though but that one is tougher to do so just stick to the first part).
Too much uptilting on Ganon's shield. He can space around that easily but you got away with it so eh.
Be wary of shielding much vs Ganon because he shield stabs super easily.
Only tech to the edge if you're sure you'll trip Ganon up because you can usually live from other moves from the middle of the stage at low to mid %s.
Ganon almost always rolls OOS so punish those as often as possible. The uptilts you did kept him from doing that as much which made the ones he did easier to read so that was good.
Delay your hits more so you can be on the ground with them closer to it for better combos. Also If someone DIs offstage finish them don't let them live for doing that when you have a great spike lol.
Second video game 1:
0:08- Waited too long to aerial. You could have also stayed under Marth and forced his DJ and punished him.
0:10- Don't think DD'ing is enough for Falco alone. It very rarely is unlike with Marth. It's okay to run away from that approach with or maybe Bair into it and see what happens, but in that instance I'd have just retreated and tried to establish some laser control.
0:12- Pretty sure shine would have connected and maybe something like upsmash could have taken his jump. I suppose you could have just waited and punished his DJ as he came down though.
0:15- You had a free punish because he was in lag so no need to spotdodge.
0:17- I recommend lasers to hold Marth in place sometimes. Marth's WD is super long so it can outspace approaching aerials like that. There are a variety of ways to beat that situation though like not jabbing or by double jabbing slowly or dash attacking(that thing you should never do in shield pressure but awesome if it works).
0:18- Trying to approach with Dair from that spacing is pretty but you can make it work. He didn't move afterward so you might have been free from being shield grabbed and could have tried something like Dtilt to shield stab since you were spaced away from him anyway.
0:29- Doesn't quite combo at that %. Instead, you could Nair/Fair to carry Marth, dash attack sets up stuff, Dair puts him down and he may miss the tech for another free hit or an easyish tech chase to stuff. There's more but that's a good place to start.
0:37- I guess tech skill kept you from getting there.
0:49- Never laser on when Marth is that close, and I guess get used to Falco's stun so you know better than trying to up-B right in Marth's face. I'd have side B'd or maybe shined or done an aerial I guess....that's a pretty bad situation lol.
1:01- Too early for Dsmash. See if you can combo him more or bait that swing into another combo move.
1:05- All I can say about this is that you confined yourself to one place too long so if Marth knows to grab early for some reason like that then you can get jank'd out. Maybe grab?
1:12- The FH followup is not the best thing to do to catch DI away. Sometimes you gotta shoot them with double lasers and sometimes you just gotta run over from below and go into them/wait.
Yeah looks like you just give up a decent amount of stage and don't go in a lot like you need to do with Falco to be more successful(going in=approaching from a dash usually but holding stage can make this work in a way too). Fix that and your combos(always FH'ing even if they DI away just dash/WD or whatever towards them) and you'll be better off.
Game 1:
0:04- Angel yourself into the opponent so you can follow their DI so the shine won't miss.
0:09- Don't guess on the missed tech! Wait for the tech or land on the platform first then react.
0:14- Make sure you WD/walk into the other Falco before doing the shine. Shine spacing seems a little off so far.
0:16- Super late Bair.
0:28- Good read, but the Fsmash was too slow. Either work on your reaction time or grab combo or Dair into stuff you react to.
0:30- You whiffed a Nair OOS(a bad idea anyway) then sat in shield while you got shot up. Lasers don't stun much so just drop the shield and get hit and move or WD OOS away or even FH away so you can relieve the pressure on yourself. You could also laser OOS to immediately attempt to reverse pressure.
0:38- Side B into Falco walking away is bad. Make sure you are closer and the other Falco isn't walking away/acting like they're anticipating the move first. It's generally unsafe to side B into the middle of the stage anyway.
0:54- Finally got shined after you kept having awkward moments. I'm not sure what to tell you except to familiarize yourself with these situations. If the other Falco isn't shooting then you need to be shooting or maneuvering your way in. If you get Dair'd while you're jumping at low %s you can shine him first. Stuff like that may help.
1:10- Nair onstage is bad, especially from that high. Your landing lag will suck because you're already putting a move you're vulnerable from below during out there. Stick to Dairs/Fairs/shine turnaround Bairs if you have to do an aerial, or do more wavelands onstage/side B cancels/regular getup options/DJ shenanigans.
1:21- You shot like 4 lasers in a row when he was shielding lol. don't wait for one to hit before moving around or going in. you have the lasers out so you can control him. Move around and pressure him since he's stuck shielding and you have the control!
I think that's enough to work on for now. =)
Tink's Fox game 2:
3:25- That Dair won't work. Fox has all year to see you double jump and get out of the way to punish. You could have just fallen off of the platform or maybe double lasered onto it again. That cancel was pretty cool lol.
3:27- Burning your DJ is awful in general and Fox will eat you up for it. Generally you don't to be directly above Fox when he's free to move like that because he can just run around your options and hit you. You lucked out here but don't do this in the future.
disclaimer: this stuff does work sometimes because of how fast Falco's fall speed is but that doesn't make it a good idea much at all.
3:31- okay I could be fine with all of this except the fallthrough Nair. You had time to react to the tech and Nair wouldn't have stunned long enough for a combo anyway. Just run off/drop through the platform and work from there(unless they tech in place then you could shine or Dair).
3:33- Because you didn't hit Fox with the Nair, then the pressure is basically over. trying to grab after that won't work because Fox will easily be on the move by then because most people don't feel pressured in that situation(a pressure move whiffing). You should react to Fox in that situation since he'll be the one making the first move more often since he's trying to escape pressure.
3:41- why try to combo with laser to dash attack(at that percent anyway)? Nair or dair are much easier to comb out of. You also could have comboed waveshines if you wanted to because that's pretty easy and lets you get comfortable comboing if need be.
3:45- Good Bair, but then when you forced Fox into his shield again, you just ran away. Take advantage of your pressure situations without leaving them!
3:51- % was a tad too low for Dsmash(on that particular part of the stage). Maybe another Dair to stuff or Dtilt to stuff or a laser reset to stuff if there was time could have been good.
3:58- Bad AC Bair. Almost no one will jump after having a delayed Bair hit their shield, so do something different(you could do another delayed Bair I suppose lol).
4:04- Aside from the obvious, you lasered too close to Fox. DJ on, aerial on, side B cancel in some form, regular getup options, wavelanding onstage are all good options to use too.
Your big issue is really your jumping thing that Fox keeps ****** you for. It's only when you're directly above him though, as the other times you can safely position yourself to safely get a laser out or trick him and Dair. Work on getting directly above fox less and those combos and shield pressure and recovery I mentioned.
Also I'll respond to that Fsmash question you had in a bit.
Don't be so quick to get over Ganon(although FH Dair can be great sparingly).
Do not challenge Ganon as he has a move out or is falling unless you're using a laser first or waiting until he lands to attack him(you can hit him in the air before he does his moves though but that one is tougher to do so just stick to the first part).
Too much uptilting on Ganon's shield. He can space around that easily but you got away with it so eh.
Be wary of shielding much vs Ganon because he shield stabs super easily.
Only tech to the edge if you're sure you'll trip Ganon up because you can usually live from other moves from the middle of the stage at low to mid %s.
Ganon almost always rolls OOS so punish those as often as possible. The uptilts you did kept him from doing that as much which made the ones he did easier to read so that was good.
Delay your hits more so you can be on the ground with them closer to it for better combos. Also If someone DIs offstage finish them don't let them live for doing that when you have a great spike lol.
I actually use a ton of Dair to edgeguard lately lol. Maybe I'll go back to some Fsmash because it's easy and you can still followup out of it some....
But I guess you mean on something like 6:33? Well, if you had stood directly over the edge and Dair'd then you may have gotten the kill anyway. Regardless, charging Fsmash just as they take off covers them going into you and overshooting by just a bit, but if they went high(and angled back when falling) or sweetspotted they'd be safe. It's an easier edgeguard if you connect though, so I use it when I want to kill/finish an edgeguard I might not be able to if the opponent could tech the Dair(usually with the help of SDI). So it's kinda about how good the Fox is at teching Dairs and surviving as well as how well they figure out when it's a good idea to try and go into Falco to avoid getting spiked. If they figure it out pretty quickly(most don't still I think) then you can Fsmash and kill them and then they'll probably not try that much anymore lol so you can stick to Dairs. Just gotta keep em honest with some Fsmashes imo.
Does that help?
Fortress | Sveet
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Dr. Pp infract yourself for double posting!!!!!!!!!!!
crush
Smash Master
Sveet please stay on-topic
@tom: you should work on your overall movement and tech skill like what I was talking about at mass madness. Also practice ur edgeguarding and don't go to the ledge vs marth lol
@tom: you should work on your overall movement and tech skill like what I was talking about at mass madness. Also practice ur edgeguarding and don't go to the ledge vs marth lol
Bones0
Smash Legend
trahhSTEEZY
Smash Champion
i just feel like challenging ganons aerial game is soo sketchy, at best you get a 1 hit in into an uptilt or something, at worse you lose your stock pretty damn easily.
i just don't see the point in coming at him when he's approaching with an aerial, when you could just approach on your terms, which is alot more often.
also
seems to mostly agreedrpeepee said:
Fortress | Sveet
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Not only am i on topic, im all over the topic
edit- sometimes i let the topic get on me, just to spice it up
edit- sometimes i let the topic get on me, just to spice it up
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9m_oTM9AtY0
yu guys mind critiquing my set with Darc? (its a quick set)
there are some random tech related flubs like missing lcancels/lasering the wrong way/dtilting instead of shining/missing techs. But besides that what should I work on to get better in this matchup (or in general)
yu guys mind critiquing my set with Darc? (its a quick set)
there are some random tech related flubs like missing lcancels/lasering the wrong way/dtilting instead of shining/missing techs. But besides that what should I work on to get better in this matchup (or in general)
Sinji
Smash Master
sveet is global
FoxLisk
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2007
- Messages
- 1,851
i think you're missing two things:
1: an uptilt on ganon is brutal. you can do unspeakable things to him if you land an utilt and are on top of your punish game.
2: you dont come at him when he's approaching with an aerial. it's more like, if you're putting on enough pressure and staying close to him, you have time to hit him when he jumps before his hitboxes are out/dangerous. You obviously want to stay way clear when he's actually gotten to comfortable spacing where he has some serious threats, but if you're on his **** you can reasonably hit him before his moves come out.
Bones0
Smash Legend
trahhSTEEZY
Smash Champion
on #2, yes i agree, if your right in his face and he tries to jump then thats easy to ****, i meant 'in the air' as in already in the air, which in most cases means hes gonna approach, or try to get in
porc
Smash Journeyman
thank you all for your advices vs ganon.
Approaching again....and Fox tier stuff
So, I've thought about a ton of different subjects lately. I think I'll write about them here. This should also help me get motivated to work on expanding this knowledge more lol.
Let's see......which to do first.
Approaching....again
So, I believe the last I said on this subject was that I was playing more aggressively in order to understand how aggression worked in Melee. Well, I continued doing so with various characters and I got a pretty interesting result testing it out on Twitch(who plays largely defensively). After forcing myself to approach so hard for so long and breaking into his defense quickly when I did so, I found that Twitch wanted to approach ME in order to stop my aggression.
I decided there were two reasons that aggression tends to make for overall more aggressive matches in this light(in terms of how it forces aggression out of the opponent anyway). The first reason was a very biological one. People, when they feel pressured, will either run or attack(the "fight or flight response" is what this is commonly known as). Thing is, most people have felt very safe just running away from the pressure for so long and have gotten better immediate reward(resetting momentum) than trying to attack out, so it makes sense that defense has become more common to me. But, when that option is repeatedly shown to not work due to aggression, then someone will instinctively lash out because fleeing has been shown to be ineffective. They may not even be considering attacking, they may just be frustrated or something, but that's what makes this so good on a human level. Being able to force this type of decision out of your opponent without their understanding is really powerful I believe, and a type of conditioning that could be a game changer(forcing someone out of their comfort zone usually is, to be fair).
In fighting game terms, when you are being overshot on constantly and being pressured to death, it only makes sense to attack in order to intercept the opponent. They have to get close then go past where you were(if you're retreating) to hit you, so really if you approach them first then you have a good shot at hitting them before their move comes out.
I feel like this is the base of how aggression works, but I have one more idea I came to somewhat recently that I feel makes up the heart of offense.
When people look at a matchup situation these days(like opponent's back to the edge or whatever), how do they commonly consider it? I feel that most, given enough questions, would say they would account for all of their opponent's options and then work around those options. It is okay to know what your opponent can do in a given situation, but I believe that one should also consider how to manipulate those options, and not just through careful spacing or baiting. No, what I am suggesting is that YOU CONSIDER HOW TO MAKE THE OPPONENT REACT TO YOU. Many dangerous options or tactics a character has lose their teeth if they are constantly being pressured(either by proximity or by direct pressure like shield stuff) and cannot manage appropriate spacing. To pressure the opponent well is to control them and essentially take away those dangerous options.
This, I believe is the core mentality of the aggressive player, and I can say from practice with this mindset that it is quite effective. Maybe it seems too simple or obvious, but I encourage anyone reading to consider their own mentality when looking into a matchup and what that may mean about how they play, and if they wanted to adjust how they could.
other things......
I believe Fox is the best character in this game. I believe so because his matchup spread(no bad ones vs everyone else's at least one bad one) and stage usage spread(no real bad stages) work in his favor so well. Fox doesn't lose to Marth and can dominate Marth off of one grab as well(you just put him up there and keep Bair'ing him/Uair'ing him....around the same difficulty as Marth's juggles if you do it right from my experience). Fox doesn't lose to Falco because he can avoid Falco very well, breaks Falco's pressure very well, handles lasers incredibly well partially due to his speed but also due to his upsmash among other things like his jump speed, and combos somewhat equally to him except he can also gimp better.
Fox is one of the fastest characters in this game. He has one of the fastest jumps in terms of acceleration and falling as well. His upsmash can combo, can kill, can be comboed into, and has huge priority(also comes out from his super fast dash). He has the best camping abilities as well due to his speed and how fast his gun is. Shine breaks pressure, also pressures, leads into grabs and upsmash and other moves, as well as gimps.
People judge things off of Youtube too much. Our community is too small for that to work accurately(unless you like just considering everything in this small metagame as an end all be all anyway).
That is all extremely paraphrased but in case anyone was wondering how I felt about Fox and why to some extent, there you go. The rest of the cast I'm going to go back and look at soon, because I feel like I'm doing a disservice to the community and myself not figuring out a reasonable tier list to stick to.
I'm gonna go look at my old posts and write about some of that stuff I said I was going to next time lol I wanted to write about more. XD
So, I've thought about a ton of different subjects lately. I think I'll write about them here. This should also help me get motivated to work on expanding this knowledge more lol.
Let's see......which to do first.
Approaching....again
So, I believe the last I said on this subject was that I was playing more aggressively in order to understand how aggression worked in Melee. Well, I continued doing so with various characters and I got a pretty interesting result testing it out on Twitch(who plays largely defensively). After forcing myself to approach so hard for so long and breaking into his defense quickly when I did so, I found that Twitch wanted to approach ME in order to stop my aggression.
I decided there were two reasons that aggression tends to make for overall more aggressive matches in this light(in terms of how it forces aggression out of the opponent anyway). The first reason was a very biological one. People, when they feel pressured, will either run or attack(the "fight or flight response" is what this is commonly known as). Thing is, most people have felt very safe just running away from the pressure for so long and have gotten better immediate reward(resetting momentum) than trying to attack out, so it makes sense that defense has become more common to me. But, when that option is repeatedly shown to not work due to aggression, then someone will instinctively lash out because fleeing has been shown to be ineffective. They may not even be considering attacking, they may just be frustrated or something, but that's what makes this so good on a human level. Being able to force this type of decision out of your opponent without their understanding is really powerful I believe, and a type of conditioning that could be a game changer(forcing someone out of their comfort zone usually is, to be fair).
In fighting game terms, when you are being overshot on constantly and being pressured to death, it only makes sense to attack in order to intercept the opponent. They have to get close then go past where you were(if you're retreating) to hit you, so really if you approach them first then you have a good shot at hitting them before their move comes out.
I feel like this is the base of how aggression works, but I have one more idea I came to somewhat recently that I feel makes up the heart of offense.
When people look at a matchup situation these days(like opponent's back to the edge or whatever), how do they commonly consider it? I feel that most, given enough questions, would say they would account for all of their opponent's options and then work around those options. It is okay to know what your opponent can do in a given situation, but I believe that one should also consider how to manipulate those options, and not just through careful spacing or baiting. No, what I am suggesting is that YOU CONSIDER HOW TO MAKE THE OPPONENT REACT TO YOU. Many dangerous options or tactics a character has lose their teeth if they are constantly being pressured(either by proximity or by direct pressure like shield stuff) and cannot manage appropriate spacing. To pressure the opponent well is to control them and essentially take away those dangerous options.
This, I believe is the core mentality of the aggressive player, and I can say from practice with this mindset that it is quite effective. Maybe it seems too simple or obvious, but I encourage anyone reading to consider their own mentality when looking into a matchup and what that may mean about how they play, and if they wanted to adjust how they could.
other things......
I believe Fox is the best character in this game. I believe so because his matchup spread(no bad ones vs everyone else's at least one bad one) and stage usage spread(no real bad stages) work in his favor so well. Fox doesn't lose to Marth and can dominate Marth off of one grab as well(you just put him up there and keep Bair'ing him/Uair'ing him....around the same difficulty as Marth's juggles if you do it right from my experience). Fox doesn't lose to Falco because he can avoid Falco very well, breaks Falco's pressure very well, handles lasers incredibly well partially due to his speed but also due to his upsmash among other things like his jump speed, and combos somewhat equally to him except he can also gimp better.
Fox is one of the fastest characters in this game. He has one of the fastest jumps in terms of acceleration and falling as well. His upsmash can combo, can kill, can be comboed into, and has huge priority(also comes out from his super fast dash). He has the best camping abilities as well due to his speed and how fast his gun is. Shine breaks pressure, also pressures, leads into grabs and upsmash and other moves, as well as gimps.
People judge things off of Youtube too much. Our community is too small for that to work accurately(unless you like just considering everything in this small metagame as an end all be all anyway).
That is all extremely paraphrased but in case anyone was wondering how I felt about Fox and why to some extent, there you go. The rest of the cast I'm going to go back and look at soon, because I feel like I'm doing a disservice to the community and myself not figuring out a reasonable tier list to stick to.
I'm gonna go look at my old posts and write about some of that stuff I said I was going to next time lol I wanted to write about more. XD
Bones0
Smash Legend
Great read. I'm just gonna mull it over before I post any of my thoughts about it, if at all.
G
genkaku
Guest
lol, PP
I mean, I know I suck, but that's all kind of intuitively obvious stuff, isn't it?
Don't you guys peoplewatch?
I mean, I know I suck, but that's all kind of intuitively obvious stuff, isn't it?
Don't you guys peoplewatch?
Pi
Smash Hero
^not since that restraining order...
It is intuitive, but a lot of intuitive things need to be brought to light for people to improve I find.
Like I said a long time ago, I learn a lot of "obvious" stuff much later than I feel I should. Doesn't mean I shouldn't try to share it. It could help someone else too.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
IMHO Fox is as good as he is largely because his effective moveset in almost any given situation is about 3+ moves longer than the next character, which is great. There's a lot of complexity to his game in virtually every aspect. This is mainly because of his crazy movement game and versatile jumps, dash, waveland, decent hitboxes, varied move properties, etc. that give him a lot of angles and effective counters to situations as they appear.
Mew2King
King of the Mews
I am going to contribute the word penis to the discussion. bbl!
zoid
zoid
Do you have any examples of this? That'd be really cool if you did. =)
KikoMePlease
Smash Journeyman
hi i'm n00b i was wonder if u guys could plz critique vijio?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JgxyBVzwu4&feature=feedu
ty much appreciate!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JgxyBVzwu4&feature=feedu
ty much appreciate!!
unknown522
Some guy
sorry I took so long moose. Here it is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-G16sgMgpw
oh yeah, before I start. Your recovery choices could've been a lot better. Cuz of the way tink was positioning himself a lot of times you could've mixed up your recovery, or chosen a safe option almost every time. Things like:
- shortening your phantasm
- phantasm at sweetspot
- firebird at sweetspot
- firebird diagonally upwards to avoid moves
- phantastm edge-cancel off of platform
- probably more that I can't think of atm
Also, since you're playing a space animal, DI is half of your recovery. You need to DI moves well if you want to survive longer.
You kinda gave him the **** game 1, so starting from game 2:
On the first 2 stocks, you did a lot of full jumps near him. I know you were trying to call his jumps, but that **** is gonna get you DD -> grabbed. Or just b-air'd. If you absolutely must jump like that, you should try to cover yourself with lasers on the way down. It may sound dumb, but it's pretty hard to beat, especially from the front.
If he's jumping around like that, a few suggestions:
- wait underneath and u-tilt
- b-air him
- jump in and shine him after he misses a move, or if he decides to land on a platform
- DD -> grab, or move back a bit then laser. After you hit the laser, then combo it into a move (grab/shine/*insert tilt here*). Or start pressure
On your 3rd stock (around 5:19) tink continues trying to lame you out with b-air spam. It looks like you were having trouble dealing with that. You continually jumped into it, and it eventually got you gimped. Some suggestions again:
- CC -> shine. Then proceed to do a massive combo
- shield and punish with either shine oos, or grab
- u-tilt through it (sometimes easier said than done)
On the last stock, it looks like you were really desperate to put the match to an end. You kept cutting combos short, and towards the end of the match, you kept throwing out moves trying to kill him, or set up a combo, but he continually punished you for just about every attempt. Maybe if you slowed down, or tried to be less direct with your intentions, then you could've gotten the kill (progressively cornering him, or putting a bit of pressure on with laser, shine, shield, WD back, and stuff). You also attacked from directly above a couple of times at the end, which were probably the easiest to punish.
Game 3:
That opening. He did that terrible approach that I always do. Since you were at low%, you could've CC -> shined him, and started a combo. Still, generally if you're chilling under a platform like that, you should be further back, so that it's harder for the opponent to attack from the front.
The shine you landed at 7:43 could've been made more devistating. You had him at the edge too. It would've been better for you to either continue the combo, or just f-smash him. Missing those 2 edgeguards afterwards was pretty cruicial. Nerves I guess.
On your second stock, you got hit by a lot of random moves. A lot of them would have been punishable if you blocked, or avoided them. You landed 1 perfect d-air, but decided to grab him after. That could've been a combo.
Later on in the matches, there were a few instances where you got too antsy and moved out of your shield while tink was jumping over you.
- @ 9:26, you could've shined oos, when he full hopped over you and drilled you. You moved too early, and got hit.
- @ 9:30, you moved and got hit by that b-air
@ 9:38, you did some nice, tricky movement, but he didn't flinch at all. Then you threw out an f-smash and of course got punished
@ 9:46, you hit that perfect d-air and could've f-smashed for a potential kill/edgeguard setup.
@ 10:14, you could've shined oos on that second b-air. Or waited on the shine instead of rolling. It's nice that you got out of the way, but the opportunitiy was there.
@ 10:22, as you were trying to get away from him, you could've reversed the situation if you lasered him as you were coming down to the ground.
On the final stock, you definitely had a massive panic. You started throwing out moves, and sidestepping. Then you had control for a bit, but missed a throw combo. Following that, you kept a bit of pressure , then he hit you once and from there everything fell apart, and you started to panic. Roll, sidestep, mess up. Can't really control that though.
There's not much to say because you're a pretty solid player, but The few things I want you to work on are:
- Finishing combos (finish simple d-air -> shine combos, or at least try to maximize damage. Try to make your goal at least 60% per hit). In those matches, you get way too many single hits but very little combos.
- Edgeguarding (d-smash vs low illusions. D-air vs firefox. Laser vs high firefox charges. Edgehog vs sweetspot)
- DI
- recovery choices (firebird, phantasm shortens, edge-cancels)
- defensive options (CC, shine oos, sidestepping at the right time) mostly
- general use of u-tilt (starting combos, extending combos, edgeguarding, stuffing approaches, etc).
Anyways, good luck dude
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-G16sgMgpw
oh yeah, before I start. Your recovery choices could've been a lot better. Cuz of the way tink was positioning himself a lot of times you could've mixed up your recovery, or chosen a safe option almost every time. Things like:
- shortening your phantasm
- phantasm at sweetspot
- firebird at sweetspot
- firebird diagonally upwards to avoid moves
- phantastm edge-cancel off of platform
- probably more that I can't think of atm
Also, since you're playing a space animal, DI is half of your recovery. You need to DI moves well if you want to survive longer.
You kinda gave him the **** game 1, so starting from game 2:
On the first 2 stocks, you did a lot of full jumps near him. I know you were trying to call his jumps, but that **** is gonna get you DD -> grabbed. Or just b-air'd. If you absolutely must jump like that, you should try to cover yourself with lasers on the way down. It may sound dumb, but it's pretty hard to beat, especially from the front.
If he's jumping around like that, a few suggestions:
- wait underneath and u-tilt
- b-air him
- jump in and shine him after he misses a move, or if he decides to land on a platform
- DD -> grab, or move back a bit then laser. After you hit the laser, then combo it into a move (grab/shine/*insert tilt here*). Or start pressure
On your 3rd stock (around 5:19) tink continues trying to lame you out with b-air spam. It looks like you were having trouble dealing with that. You continually jumped into it, and it eventually got you gimped. Some suggestions again:
- CC -> shine. Then proceed to do a massive combo
- shield and punish with either shine oos, or grab
- u-tilt through it (sometimes easier said than done)
On the last stock, it looks like you were really desperate to put the match to an end. You kept cutting combos short, and towards the end of the match, you kept throwing out moves trying to kill him, or set up a combo, but he continually punished you for just about every attempt. Maybe if you slowed down, or tried to be less direct with your intentions, then you could've gotten the kill (progressively cornering him, or putting a bit of pressure on with laser, shine, shield, WD back, and stuff). You also attacked from directly above a couple of times at the end, which were probably the easiest to punish.
Game 3:
That opening. He did that terrible approach that I always do
. Since you were at low%, you could've CC -> shined him, and started a combo. Still, generally if you're chilling under a platform like that, you should be further back, so that it's harder for the opponent to attack from the front.The shine you landed at 7:43 could've been made more devistating. You had him at the edge too. It would've been better for you to either continue the combo, or just f-smash him. Missing those 2 edgeguards afterwards was pretty cruicial. Nerves I guess.
On your second stock, you got hit by a lot of random moves. A lot of them would have been punishable if you blocked, or avoided them. You landed 1 perfect d-air, but decided to grab him after. That could've been a combo.
Later on in the matches, there were a few instances where you got too antsy and moved out of your shield while tink was jumping over you.
- @ 9:26, you could've shined oos, when he full hopped over you and drilled you. You moved too early, and got hit.
- @ 9:30, you moved and got hit by that b-air
@ 9:38, you did some nice, tricky movement, but he didn't flinch at all. Then you threw out an f-smash and of course got punished
@ 9:46, you hit that perfect d-air and could've f-smashed for a potential kill/edgeguard setup.
@ 10:14, you could've shined oos on that second b-air. Or waited on the shine instead of rolling. It's nice that you got out of the way, but the opportunitiy was there.
@ 10:22, as you were trying to get away from him, you could've reversed the situation if you lasered him as you were coming down to the ground.
On the final stock, you definitely had a massive panic. You started throwing out moves, and sidestepping. Then you had control for a bit, but missed a throw combo. Following that, you kept a bit of pressure , then he hit you once and from there everything fell apart, and you started to panic. Roll, sidestep, mess up. Can't really control that though.
There's not much to say because you're a pretty solid player, but The few things I want you to work on are:
- Finishing combos (finish simple d-air -> shine combos, or at least try to maximize damage. Try to make your goal at least 60% per hit). In those matches, you get way too many single hits but very little combos.
- Edgeguarding (d-smash vs low illusions. D-air vs firefox. Laser vs high firefox charges. Edgehog vs sweetspot)
- DI
- recovery choices (firebird, phantasm shortens, edge-cancels)
- defensive options (CC, shine oos, sidestepping at the right time) mostly
- general use of u-tilt (starting combos, extending combos, edgeguarding, stuffing approaches, etc).
Anyways, good luck dude
Pi
Smash Hero
Hmmm...
what are some of your guyses thoughts on your mistakes during a match
Like, as they are happening, let's say you make a poor edgeguarding decision, or time it wrong
or maybe something like a messed waveland that you don't get punished for
minor things that happen to a lot of people and aren't pointed out as much, I feel like I don't remember them enough because I try not to let them get to me while in a match, but almost to the point of me just writing them off as things I should practice
like if I'm trying to utilt edgeguard a spacie, and i mistime it and get hit by the UB and trade, or don't trade, just get hit
it's like 'oh well no big deal it's kind hard any way' but i mean that could have been a stock
things like that, do you guys kill yourself over those things or kinda just move on?
what are some of your guyses thoughts on your mistakes during a match
Like, as they are happening, let's say you make a poor edgeguarding decision, or time it wrong
or maybe something like a messed waveland that you don't get punished for
minor things that happen to a lot of people and aren't pointed out as much, I feel like I don't remember them enough because I try not to let them get to me while in a match, but almost to the point of me just writing them off as things I should practice
like if I'm trying to utilt edgeguard a spacie, and i mistime it and get hit by the UB and trade, or don't trade, just get hit
it's like 'oh well no big deal it's kind hard any way' but i mean that could have been a stock
things like that, do you guys kill yourself over those things or kinda just move on?
unknown522
Some guy
depends on what I'm trying to do personally.
If it's something basic, it pisses me off a little.
If it's something basic, it pisses me off a little.
I used to totally forget all of my mistakes and just wait for videos lol.
Now, since my dazzle driver is being a pain to find, I've had to learn to find my mistakes while playing, and it's quite useful. I don't kick myself about it per se, but I drill the need to do something different into my head in between stocks/games(anything simple you can use like for Samus uptilting "do it sooner! do uptilt sooner!"). Something with emotion in it like that makes it easier to remember, and the break you get in between stocks on the respawn platform gives you time to commit everything to memory that you should need.