Fortress | Sveet
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DL is ******** for falco... free fullhop to top platform? >_>
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PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Dr Peepee
- Start date
FoxLisk
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2007
- Messages
- 1,851
why would we ever talk about moves when they're used wrong? Dash attack is only eminently punishable on shield & when your opponent can DD grab/etc it. And your opponent can DD grab any of your moves except laser, so that's irrelevant. Dash attack is pretty good because it ***** when it lands, and your opponent cant shield midair.
I'm not saying I disagree that dash attack is his worst move (i'd say it's between that and jab) but your reasoning sucks.
I'm a programmer and I resent the idea that I'm not putting in a hard day's work
Fortress | Sveet
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im a programmer too
Theres a big difference between the intellectual work I do and the work my father does (my father has done concrete work for more than 20 years)
Theres a big difference between the intellectual work I do and the work my father does (my father has done concrete work for more than 20 years)
_Kadaj_
Smash Hero
PP what are the Pros and Cons to doing that **** stuff?
I don't like DL all that much vs Sheik, but it may just be Twitch's campy Sheik. Also, it is worth noting that Amsah CP'd me there at Pound 5.
At any rate, I'll just play the matchup more soon so I can make sure my feelings remain the same on the stage, and I figure out more matchup stuff.
@Unknown: I don't really consider rapid jabs a move rather than jab separately and that being part of it I guess. And you didn't really explain why Fair was worse than Ftilt lol.
At any rate, I'll just play the matchup more soon so I can make sure my feelings remain the same on the stage, and I figure out more matchup stuff.
@Unknown: I don't really consider rapid jabs a move rather than jab separately and that being part of it I guess. And you didn't really explain why Fair was worse than Ftilt lol.
Melomaniacal
Smash Champion
Because the people who play Melee are human?
Super Theory Bros Melee is essentially useless, so why talk in terms of a perfectly controlled character if that will never be achieved? Sometimes people will use dash attack at the wrong time. Sometimes people will use laser at the wrong time. Sometimes people will get punished, therefore, it's worth noting if a move is more punishable than other moves. Do you not agree? I mean, if you don't take into account how punishable a move is, then every discussion would be pretty dumb.
"Wobbling is broken!"
"Nah, just separate them or don't get grabbed."
"That's only if ICs grab at the wrong time."
Dash attack is probably the most easily punished attack on shield, and that's noteworthy. Well, I guess his smash attacks are just as easy, but I think we can all agree that his smash attacks are in general still better.
unknown522
Some guy
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
I have this feeling that like... the gayer the opponent, the more obnoxious it is to fight them on DL64 (character choices aside).
unknown522
Some guy
yeah, I hate DL vs sheik. Chasing her is a ***** and her combos don't really change as opposed to some other stages
true. A lot of people don't consider the rapid jab a separate move.
But yeah, for f-tilt vs f-air, it's just personal bias. I use f-tilt a lot more in general for spacing, poking, edgeguarding, setting up edgeguards, and sometimes for counter-pokes (Street fighter term. It's when you hit the opponents whiffed poke). I don't like f-tilt vs marth though, but that's cuz he can shield-grab/CC-grab it even at max distance, given the right situation.
But yeah, for the f-air, I find that I have the same success with n-air, or reverse b-air. Though there are those times when you need that little extra reach of f-air. But yeah, f-air's only purpose is to extend combos, but there are other moves that usually can be used at the same situation. But f-air does come in handy when manipulating DI during extended combos (like vs ganon/marth/peach).
Also, if we're not counting rapid jab. Then I think that his u-smash is his worst move. Everything that move can do, can be done the same or better with u-tilt (maybe shine). the move is pretty much outclassed by u-tilt in every way. It's also not really strong enough to kill anything except in those rare instances like Shiz vs M2K. Though, that combo could've been escaped with various moves if m2k didn't panic/mis-time his punish attempt.
CK Momentum
Smash Apprentice
guys, there are BATS flying around my cursor. I'm really scared.
i reject the notion that upsmash is a crappy move. maybe its just the level i play on, but puffs and the like will space like crap cuz falco doesn't have fox's upsmash, and upsmashing them is just free. also in personal experience people dont punish it that hard. i think dash attack is the most easily punished, but seriously upair kinda sucks oh well it can be used occasionally
mers
Smash Ace
uair is awesome, y'all are just haters. it shield pokes from underneath platforms so ****ing well.
**** usmash, id rather dtilt or utilt all day. although i remember watching shiz combo laser to that weird reverse hit of usmash to knock someone offstage, and i nearly pooped my pants. might have been in that awesome set vs falcomist.
dtilt is the best move.
**** these stupid bats.
**** usmash, id rather dtilt or utilt all day. although i remember watching shiz combo laser to that weird reverse hit of usmash to knock someone offstage, and i nearly pooped my pants. might have been in that awesome set vs falcomist.
dtilt is the best move.
**** these stupid bats.
unknown522
Some guy
up throw -> up-air kills on floaties
I use jab/laser to upsmash to kill floaties a little over 100%, so I like the move more than Ftilt haha.
I really should zone and counter poke with it more though to see how that goes. At least I was having a decent idea thinking about that, good to know someone's already doing it well haha.
I killed Hbox with Fair on DL so I think that move kills offstage LOL. Also I have other ideas for the move but I want those to be surprises so for now if Fair sometimes killing isn't enough(which it probably isn't even if we include that upthrow fair shenanigan I do vs Marth) then maybe I can convince you in the future haha.
And good to know I wasn't the only one who dislikes DL vs Sheik. And yeah Druggedfox, that may also be true haha, the gayness is tough to fight there. XD
I really should zone and counter poke with it more though to see how that goes. At least I was having a decent idea thinking about that, good to know someone's already doing it well haha.
I killed Hbox with Fair on DL so I think that move kills offstage LOL. Also I have other ideas for the move but I want those to be surprises so for now if Fair sometimes killing isn't enough(which it probably isn't even if we include that upthrow fair shenanigan I do vs Marth) then maybe I can convince you in the future haha.
And good to know I wasn't the only one who dislikes DL vs Sheik. And yeah Druggedfox, that may also be true haha, the gayness is tough to fight there. XD
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
While any of fair, up smash, and f-tilt may be Falco's "worst move", all of those moves have respectable utility. While they're certainly not needed in a successful Falco style as a result of his base gameplay being extremely cohesive, generically-applicable, and effective... they are still very decent, usable tools. For one thing or another.
It's not like Ness where Psi Magnet is literally a dead move 80% of the time. Falco's worst moves are still usable, and can be integrated into a player's style effectively.
Forward made Falco's f-tilt look like one of the best moves in the game at SCC. Granted, that's old as hell, but it's pretty decent. I remember him making a post on f-tilts in general where he said "It's a straight kick that you can angle in useful directions, has medium priority. It's pretty good when the opponent doesn't have a strong approach." Or something to that effect, when referencing a match of his vs. Taj where he f-tilted Taj's Mewtwo out of a bunch of approaches.
/tangent
It's not like Ness where Psi Magnet is literally a dead move 80% of the time. Falco's worst moves are still usable, and can be integrated into a player's style effectively.
Forward made Falco's f-tilt look like one of the best moves in the game at SCC. Granted, that's old as hell, but it's pretty decent. I remember him making a post on f-tilts in general where he said "It's a straight kick that you can angle in useful directions, has medium priority. It's pretty good when the opponent doesn't have a strong approach." Or something to that effect, when referencing a match of his vs. Taj where he f-tilted Taj's Mewtwo out of a bunch of approaches.
/tangent
Bones0
Smash Legend
I don't know how anyone could even consider uair close to Falco's worst move. Even ignoring its combo utility, I feel like people don't understand how frequently uair kills better than bair. If you grab any character other than Fox/Falco/Falcon, uthrow uair will usually kill them before uthrow bair, especially on stages like PS where the blast zones are low and wide as opposed to high and thin (FoD). The only reason to bair instead of uair is because you are closer to the side blast zones or because neither will kill and you would rather set up an edge guard off-stage.
Discussion about the worst move feels pointless in the first place because it definitely varies from one matchup to another. I wouldn't be able to live without uthrow -> fair on Marth, but I'm not going to use fair nearly as much vs. Fox and might opt for having a quick ftilt to edgeguard illusions with (I actually wouldn't prefer it lol, but that's just an example).
Discussion about the worst move feels pointless in the first place because it definitely varies from one matchup to another. I wouldn't be able to live without uthrow -> fair on Marth, but I'm not going to use fair nearly as much vs. Fox and might opt for having a quick ftilt to edgeguard illusions with (I actually wouldn't prefer it lol, but that's just an example).
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Falco's worst move is pointless because all his moves are useful in some way or another. Not all of them are necessary to have an effective style, but they can all be incorporated effectively if you decide to develop some proficiency with them.
D
Deleted member
Guest
No, you are wrong. You can actively choose not to fall for sketchy situations by avoiding "RPS situations" and choosing to engage in them is a good way to get *****. Why would you be okay having what you admit to be guessing anywhere in your style?
I've seen two people play the rules of the game the most, those being 2007 m2k and dr. pp. in the last few years, m2k gave up on some guaranteed things in favor of doing things that were technically easier but focused on what most people have for bad habits. while they're almost as good, it's not quite there.
getting into the opponent's head is a subpar strategy. if your opponent has no way to resolve what you are doing, all you have to do is simply execute the unstoppable. *****-footing around kills momentum and in some cases kills you. however i also think it's important to stay in your own head. besides, there's obviously a LOT of players in this game that literally don't think at all, so trying to read them is a waste of time. how can you know what i'm going to do when I don't?
kevin I'll answer you legitimately later, since your question requires some thought and is worded confusingly lol.
cheeseball341
Smash Journeyman
http://www.option-select.com/blog/entry/?id=123
This is a good blog on what I think he is referring too. Only this guy comes to a different conclusion.
This is a good blog on what I think he is referring too. Only this guy comes to a different conclusion.
No, Mow, actually, you're wrong. Maybe what you mean is, "people use mindgames too much" or "Generally speaking, people should focus less on their opponent and more on themselves." But what you said was, "getting into the mind of the opponent is a joke." No way. You and I both know that that's not true. I could pull up ten YT vids of PP or m2k where they got a kill or a victory by predicting what their opponent was going to do, and not by playing in some theoretically perfect unhittable frame-safe flawless way (which would be impossible, of course)
Yeah, sorry Mow. If you want I can try to re-word it haha.
unknown522
Some guy
true.
it's not bad. Especially when trying to get them offstage, and you need a fast move to poke at then when they're at high%
holy crap!
but yeah, about that u-throw -> f-air. Come to think of it, I've seen you do it a couple of times at tourneys/vids. I should've taken that into consideration when making that post.
NO! WE MUST DISCUSS WHICH MOVE IS WORST BECAUSE THE WORLD WOULDN'T MAKE SENSE!!!
D
Deleted member
Guest
sure, but at the end of the day falco will still be shooting lasers and sheik will still chaingrab. nothing is 100% black and white, but abusing character limitations is definitely better. thats why i said do both if you can.
that article is good and i've seen it before, but i think smash is too different from the traditional fighter. there are points in smash where you can attack and risk nothing and it's still abusing the character because smash has a mugh higher focus on positioning. i do admire though that even other fighters with a narrow scope of positioning still use it heavily at the higher spectrum of play.
in something like street fighter though this is totally debatable and really awesome. the dynamics make both arguments totally feasible and that's pretty cool to me at least.
Prince_Abu
Smash Lord
wow u guys are so dumb taunt is the worst move obviously
unknown522
Some guy
taunt is better than exactly 6 moves in his moveset
learn your falco man
learn your falco man
Linguini
Smash Master
Fair is actually pretty damn good in some situations. I remember pp doing double sh fair to nair to spike while stealing my jump.
It's really DI dependent, but surprises the opponent when used sparsely
It's really DI dependent, but surprises the opponent when used sparsely
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
I feel like whenever I'm fighting a Falco as Peach, uair kills me a lot. That move has annoying reach and kill potential. Certainly not his worst. I'd probably go for fair.
Bl@ckChris
Smash Hero
up angled ftilt.
that is all.
that is all.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
It's like the Sagat kick except not as broken.. imagine if it had a bigger hitbox and double hits? lol.
Bones0
Smash Legend
Oh yeah, Kage and I were discussing in Peef's stream that Falco needs Ganon's fair.
It's only fair!
It's only fair!
Divinokage
Smash Legend
You'd be able to dropzone fair and then DJ all the back up, omg lol.
Beat!
Smash Master
Definitely not, lol. Falco is a fast-falling beyotch.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Why not? If Falcon can dropzone knee, why couldn't Falco dropzone Ganon Fair especially with the best jump in the game.
Beat!
Smash Master
Yes, but he wouldn't be able to DJ all the way back, which is what you said. He'd have to use his up-B.
Fortress | Sveet
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thats fine, he can just shine->fair instead
Winston
Smash Master
Falco's 1st jump is what's super high... his 2nd jump is pretty average.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Why was I corrected twice when it's something that's not going to happen? lol.
Stevo
Smash Champion
Falco falls to fast and his DJ doesn't jump far enough, so you wouldn't be able to make it back. You could Shine Fair, though.
I think what UmbreonMow is saying is pretty accurate actually. Although playing your opponent can be very rewarding, you should lean towards playing the character first. I might apply this way of thinking more to my gameplay.
I think what UmbreonMow is saying is pretty accurate actually. Although playing your opponent can be very rewarding, you should lean towards playing the character first. I might apply this way of thinking more to my gameplay.
Because we must achieve a fully exhausted knowledge of smash, even if that means veering off into the irrational/impractical!
Speaking of which, I think we've quite exhausted the topic of falco's "worst move", which I think I can accurately sum up as, "on scale of the poorness of a majority of the cast's moves, none of falco's qualify definitively as his worst". How about we transition to something else?
Say, I've been practicing a lot against CPUs lately, and I've been implementing a lot more "empty waveland" onto platforms after I've knocked an opponent vertically into tumble animation (so that he will be in a tech/no-tech situation). Obviously it's difficult for me to judge precisely the viability of strategies against CPUs, but I reckon the empty waveland is underused by most falcos in favor of shine->waveland, which, while it's very effective, also seems to me to add a certain small window of reaction time for an opponent to escape combos. Part of what makes shine->waveland attractive to falcos is due, I hypothesize, to a sort of giddiness to continue the combo, which manifests itself in their choice to throw out the quicker, if not necessarily better, option.
What do you think?
Bones0
Smash Legend
I do empty wavelands all the time, mostly when my shine is staled or if they are too floaty/high of a % to reach after the shine. The only problem with empty wavelands is if they actually DO tech, in which case shine waveland is the only way to keep the pressure on them, and if they end up shielding out of a tech in place then you can just shine waveland on their shield and grab or start shield pressure.