PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Bones0]

From my experience, Falcons only go for reads because it's more fun. Like whenever I pull out my jank-arsed Falcon I will just hard read stomps all day. But then I start getting destroyed so I just tech chase on reaction with regrabs and end up getting a bunch of free %. It also seems like people are MUCH more likely to base a tech off of instinct after they've been grabbed 3 times in a row as opposed to just you throwing them once and them anticipating you to go for a hard read on the first throw (and instinctual techs usually being the ones that are easiest to read).

I actually do that with Falco vs. Fox. I just spam bthrow and dthrow, and because they are so quick people are MUCH more likely to roll or spot dodge than if you uthrow and they are ready to shine out of it or at least DI your followup.

 

[Druggedfox]

Falcon players go for tech chases? .... ...... since when. I thought they all just guessed randomly and hoped.

 

[silentSWAG]

@Dark Hart: Very briefly, I go into the match with a set plan and certain counters to situations that frequently arise. If I get surprised by something or something doesn't work out, then I try to take note of it and fix it asap. Today, I wasn't too great at that and forced a lot of things I shouldn't have. Usually when I'm calm it works though, which is different from how I used to be(fired up to play meant I could focus and play better).

Basically, if I got hit, then why did I get hit? How do I adjust my game plan according to that hit? Same things for when I get a hit, but that's easier to forget for me right now, so it may be better to just focus on why you got hit for now(since that worked for me for so long, anyway).

this post just taught me how to get better

 

[Dr Peepee]

How safe is utilt when fox is above you? Can fox double jump and punish you for it?

If they're super low then maybe, but it all kinda depends on when you time your uptilt, when Fox jumps, and what angle they are to you when they jump. Generally though you should be okay with uptilting if Fox is directly above you, but be sure to execute somewhat early so you don't trade if it's a Nair Fox falls with.

hmm yeah ur right

most falcons though only wanna do regrabs through reaction and ignore reads n stuff

Regrabbing through reaction is REALLY good, but very difficult to do consistently. I think a mix or a switchoff should occur when tech chasing with Falcon to be effective. Reacting as often as possible is pretty good though since it's guaranteed damage so I'd say do that more in combos and focus more on reads otherwise. *a nice general rule anyway, but everyone works differently

yoo ive been thinking alot about this concept recently
but whenever I think about it, it all just seems to come down to mobility being necessary...
how can a character with limited mobility options really do this effectively?

Why is high mobility necessary to force a reaction from your opponent? If you run towards your opponent with Fox your opponent will either counterattack or dodge(to keep it simple). Could a Peach that walks toward her opponent not also force the same change? You're still taking space and you're still approaching. Why does it matter if the approach is fast? Sure it may be harder to react to if the opponent is fast, but that just means that more prediction will be used instead for floaties.

There are basic rules that apply no matter which character you play. If you get momentum and approach, then the other guy will probably move away in order to pull you in and then try to counterattack in your lag or trap you in some other way. If you Fair someone with Peach and then take your stage and then move past your comfort zone a little, then the opponent isn't likely to just run at you because Peach has strong counterattack options, but more importantly because you have the momentum. You could be playing Bowser and get a hit and as long as that hit wasn't CC'd then there's a solid chance that you could force the opponent back somewhat simply because they know they can get away from Bowser rather than take the chance being comboed.



I don't know if this is making sense as I don't feel like I'm explaining it exactly the way I want to, so does this make sense to you? If not, could you make your question more specific or ask it in a different way?

 

[flaw]

I was going to ask about timing but you already answered, thanks again

 

[Sinji]

If they're super low then maybe, but it all kinda depends on when you time your uptilt, when Fox jumps, and what angle they are to you when they jump. Generally though you should be okay with uptilting if Fox is directly above you, but be sure to execute somewhat early so you don't trade if it's a Nair Fox falls with.

I think we need Strong Bad's frame data to learn exactly when to utilt fox without a trade.

 

[Dark Hart]

@Dark Hart: Very briefly, I go into the match with a set plan and certain counters to situations that frequently arise. If I get surprised by something or something doesn't work out, then I try to take note of it and fix it asap. Today, I wasn't too great at that and forced a lot of things I shouldn't have. Usually when I'm calm it works though, which is different from how I used to be(fired up to play meant I could focus and play better).

Basically, if I got hit, then why did I get hit? How do I adjust my game plan according to that hit? Same things for when I get a hit, but that's easier to forget for me right now, so it may be better to just focus on why you got hit for now(since that worked for me for so long, anyway).

Just got to this.

I understand the mentality, but on the fly? Don't you have a match to finish?

I guess my brain doesn't have enough WATTS or something since I cannot do this during a match, I either know what happened and adjust accordingly, or have no clue, either way I have no time to think about it since I'm supposed to be playing Melee but that goes back to the low WATT brain of mine so...

So if I don't know what I did wrong I'm ****ed forever I guess

 

[Dr Peepee]

Just got to this.

I understand the mentality, but on the fly? Don't you have a match to finish?

I guess my brain doesn't have enough WATTS or something since I cannot do this during a match, I either know what happened and adjust accordingly, or have no clue, either way I have no time to think about it since I'm supposed to be playing Melee but that goes back to the low WATT brain of mine so...

So if I don't know what I did wrong I'm ****ed forever I guess

Nah I didn't think I could process during a match either, but it's mostly just stuff to look for. See, you already look for things to react to during a match, but it's based on experience so you may not know it. All you need to do is remember when something happens and why. If you remember one thing a game, one bad habit you have a set once in a while, then that's all you need to build on. It's all about knowing the right stuff to look for and react to or set up, and I think you just need to go into the match with that kind of gameplan(and a general gameplan outside of improving) to get farther along. =)

 

[silentSWAG]

i notice you talking a lot about counter attacks. i know util and wavedash back and wait for the other character's lag on there approach and punish are good "counter attacks", but what are some more ( with falco)?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Bair is a good counterattack, as is a laser into anything. I've seen shine used as a counterattack even so that's in there too. Arguably grabs can earn that title too but that's kinda tough to pull off so eh.

Dair is a pretty good counterattack.

From there I guess you could kinda argue weird stuff is like Fsmashes or CC things or Ftilts but that seems more situational(or possibly underused).



Edit: I suppose you could use more than that but it really depends on the situation. I could make an argument for Dsmash for example but it's about general effectiveness for most people I suppose....although how you move before you use any sort of counterattack is probably just as important as the move itself.

 

[silentSWAG]

i see....

and lets say i come in on a peach that is camping and i nair their shield, so after i hit their shield i dash away and start dash-dancing and wait for whatever.

would it be bad to wait because i may not be able to react to whatever they do. and therefore instead predict instead?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Sure.....but what exactly are you predicting?

Also I wouldn't do that every time because then Peach won't feel very pressured.

 

[onionchowder]

Help critique my Falco v. Marth!

Set 1 (Games 1 and 3) (I win)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwtrmFrvNdo
Set 2 (Games 1 and 2) (I lose)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4WIGEN8WCg
Match times in comments. Also, I am the "Eric" the commentators refer to.

I played the same Marth in pools earlier, and he 2-0'd me.

My Falco clearly needs a lot of work. I did suffer from nervousness (haven't been to many tournaments), but I think the matches in general indicative of my playstyle/ability.

1) How the **** do I avoid those gimps?
2) I've been told I laser too much/inappropriately. When/where?
3) My shield pressure is awful (partly due to lacking tech skill). Advice?
4) Any other tips and advice would be helpful.

 

[Dark Hart]

Nah I didn't think I could process during a match either, but it's mostly just stuff to look for. See, you already look for things to react to during a match, but it's based on experience so you may not know it. All you need to do is remember when something happens and why. If you remember one thing a game, one bad habit you have a set once in a while, then that's all you need to build on. It's all about knowing the right stuff to look for and react to or set up, and I think you just need to go into the match with that kind of gameplan(and a general gameplan outside of improving) to get farther along. =)

... Kevin you're gonna have to give me a pep talk before pools at rom4 or something...

also I don't know what I do wrong at the time and by the time it's over I don't really remember it anyway....

I'm hopeless,

hopeless

 

[Dr Peepee]

Lol it's gotta be before tourney time.

Maybe the night before rom4 we can work something out. Either way I'll help haha.

 

[Strong Badam]

So can we discuss Dr. Peepee in here?
I think he's pretty cute but I think he'd be cuter w/o a beard IMHO BBQ. What frame does your beard come out on Kevin?

 

[silentSWAG]

i didnt explain that well enough .forget about that silly example

the main point is, should you predict when your shield pressuring or should you react?
(to rolls, jumps, wave dashes, ect.)

 

[silentSWAG]

yea i need that mental help too. i have no plan on how to think about certain stuff during games. i just play and try to win. =/

 

[Strong Badam]

I think we need Strong Bad's frame data to learn exactly when to utilt fox without a trade.

on frame 1674 of any given match
seriously though frame data can't answer hitbox position questions because they're based on pixel spacing.

 

[Dr Peepee]

So can we discuss Dr. Peepee in here?
I think he's pretty cute but I think he'd be cuter w/o a beard IMHO BBQ. What frame does your beard come out on Kevin?

I shaved yesterday but it's no shave november so don't push your luck.

i didnt explain that well enough .forget about that silly example

the main point is, should you predict when your shield pressuring or should you react?
(to rolls, jumps, wave dashes, ect.)

Well.....it's kind of a mixture. You do certain things you predict will cause them to react a certain way that you prepare yourself through prediction to react to.

The easy way to say this is just do what you think is best and adjust based on how your opponent responds.

Mix up shine grab, that shine jump shine waveland on a platform thing Mango does(he started doing it at Genesis 2 so only look for it in those videos), and shine retreating aerial(all of these after approaching aerial) and you'll be fine in general though. Knowing when to do each of these would depend on how the opponent is reacting to whichever option you choose to use more often/start with.

 

[Dark Hart]

thanks kevin, I'll stop being emo in your thread now and go do Lucas things

 

[silentSWAG]

so just switch it up. i see now. kind of obvious but nice to make sure by asking you great doctor of pps

 

[Strong Badam]

I would let Dr PP give me a checkup if you know what I mean
:master:

 

[silentSWAG]

get your donkey **** out of here

 

[Sinji]

lol. dudes messing with PP

 

[crush]

They're bicurious

 

[silentSWAG]

someone change there tag to nurse vagina

 

[Vaccine]

idk how to avoid getting hit by marth when he comes back with invincibility frames

i usually DD/WD around underneath him when hes on the platform and then when he drops down i take off to one of the sides of the stage and try to stay out of his range. i usually end up trying to jump over him and that usually doesnt work. =(

it seems like i always get pushed off to the side and then i get pressured into jumping. idk how to not get hit when he has invincibility frames

 

[Bl@ckChris]

well, if he has a habit of swinging wildly, you can probably shield and roll spam lol. if he has a habit of waiting, then you might be able to find ways around him, as he would just react to roll spam lol.

all depends on the marth in the end.

 

[Rubyiris]

Just push buttons.

 

[Bones0]

Help critique my Falco v. Marth!

Set 1 (Games 1 and 3) (I win)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwtrmFrvNdo
Set 2 (Games 1 and 2) (I lose)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4WIGEN8WCg
Match times in comments. Also, I am the "Eric" the commentators refer to.

I played the same Marth in pools earlier, and he 2-0'd me.

My Falco clearly needs a lot of work. I did suffer from nervousness (haven't been to many tournaments), but I think the matches in general indicative of my playstyle/ability.

1) How the **** do I avoid those gimps?
2) I've been told I laser too much/inappropriately. When/where?
3) My shield pressure is awful (partly due to lacking tech skill). Advice?
4) Any other tips and advice would be helpful.

General Marth Advice

- Right off the bat you are playing way too passively. A good rule to avoid useless lasers is to not laser unless you can capitalize on it. If Marth is standing in the center and you're by the ledge, lasering in place is almost as bad as just standing there.
- WTF are you doing talking during a tourney match??? Focus, son...
- 1:25 in second vid; never jab when Marth is facing you
- You are frequently missing reverse SHLs, and a lot of your lasers are really slow, so just practice until you can laser flawlessly.
- Against people who powershield, either shoot low or high. High ones you can walk under, and low ones you can jump over with another laser. It would be much harder for him to power shield if you did more SHFFL approaches after approaching SHLs or approach with a SHL and then dash dance to bait a reaction.

idk how to avoid getting hit by marth when he comes back with invincibility frames

i usually DD/WD around underneath him when hes on the platform and then when he drops down i take off to one of the sides of the stage and try to stay out of his range. i usually end up trying to jump over him and that usually doesnt work. =(

it seems like i always get pushed off to the side and then i get pressured into jumping. idk how to not get hit when he has invincibility frames

Falco's full hop (with shine stalling if necessary) can be good for stalling invincibility, and then as you drift down, just go for the safest spot that will be hardest for him to reach. You can light shield on a platform and just jump out if he goes to land and grab you. You can also ledge cancel a side-B on the top platform if you practice it. Even if you get forced to the ledge as a last resort, it's not that bad if you can ledge dash well or even just mixing up LHDL with regular getup/rolling on can be good enough to stay safe.

 

[EWC]

On re-spawn I find the most reliable thing to do is wait right under the top plat, watch where they fall, and then go onto the plat on the other side, or the top plat.

 

[SUNG475]

- WTF are you doing talking during a tourney match??? Focus, son...

^ This

Ugh I was pretty angry with Jwu doin it too esp when it was to john >_>
Never LHDL if they are close, you'll get d tilted

 

[Dr Peepee]

idk how to avoid getting hit by marth when he comes back with invincibility frames

i usually DD/WD around underneath him when hes on the platform and then when he drops down i take off to one of the sides of the stage and try to stay out of his range. i usually end up trying to jump over him and that usually doesnt work. =(

it seems like i always get pushed off to the side and then i get pressured into jumping. idk how to not get hit when he has invincibility frames

Well you gotta put yourself in Marth's shoes. If Marth comes down and sees a Falco on one side of the stage, he's already cut off most of his options and Marth knows exactly where to go. You wanna make it hard to be followed, so stick to the middle and occasionally mix in high/low mixups so you're hard to follow even if you do get chased somehow.

You don't have to jump, even if you get stuck in shield. If Marth is waiting for the jump then he won't hit you, but if you sit there too long then he'll know you're trying not to jump and will just hit you. Even though he's invincible, you still have to lead him along a little so it's not an easy guess for him.

 

[ShroudedOne]

It's so misleading when people who know the game well (like Peepee) talk about it and make it sound like you've got time to think it all out, and you can see the options clearly before you, and have enough time to pick and choose. I know that this isn't the case AT ALL, but it always gets me.

 

[stingers]

you have to make it intuitive enough to you to where you can do it all without thinking.

 

[Bones0]

you have to make it intuitive enough to you to where you can do it all without thinking.

Learning to space in Melee is like learning to type. When you first start out, being able to combine all the different options is insane, especially when you are trying to take into consideration the correct spelling and punctuation. Then you move on to grammar, and before you know it you're typing essays where you are more concerned with the subject you are discussing than with your ability to actually perform the typing necessary to create it in the first place. But no matter how adept you get at the writing, you'll always still have that fear of making small typos which can distract you from the bigger picture.

Or maybe I just love making random analogies that are so vague they could apply to anything. I can't quite tell.

 

[L__]

I really liked that analogy lol

def gonna keep that one in mind

concerning peach to stay relevant

as falco I find it hard to keep a flow of pressure vs. slowing the match down and spacing

spacing is hard

 

[Bones0]

In my very limited wisdom of Falco vs. Peach, I think the pressure she feels from slowing the game down is just as difficult to deal with (maybe even more so) than the pressure she feels from a fast-paced match, assuming your spacing in both cases is about the same. That's just how I interpreted PP's sets vs. Armada at Pound. It seemed like the actual spacing portions of the game went in PP's favor when he slowed it down, but it can still look fast because you have 5 seconds of slow-paced spacing, then 15 seconds of fast-paced combos and follow-ups after either player gets that first hit.

 

[L__]

hmmm

yeah that's what I've been experimenting with lately—trying to slow down the pacing of the match. its tough tho cuz spacing isn't my strong suit.

if anyone is willing I'd like to post a video here when I ever get my recording setup back to find something I'm not understanding that might help me