PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Lanceinthepants]

Falco's Up B is definitely his worst move

 

[Mogwai]

na trick, Shine -> upB is one of the coolest ways to kill people. Falco's worst move is his dash. walk faster than dash, such ****ty dash. Also 5 frame jump squat. wtf is that ****. The stuff that actually keeps Falco down next to Fox is that stupid little ****, not the actual A and B move moveset. (Falco still better IMO, but I understand why no one agrees with me)

 

[ShroudedOne]

Actually more people have been saying as of late that Falco is better than Fox.

I think that if there were a third spacie with a 4 frame jump squat, and Falco's shine/lasers, he'd be the undeniable best.

 

[Beat!]

I'd say side-b is teh worst.

Sure, it's a meteor, but...
-slow startup
-the hitbox is behind Falco the entire time
-distinct "ping" sound during startup, which can be reacted to
-fairly large amount of ending lag
-easily punished because of above stuff
-doesn't cover *that* much distance

 

[ShroudedOne]

Isn't Falco's over B faster than Fox's? Also, you can edge cancel it to get rid of the lag. It's a fairly reliable recovery option...

 

[Dr Peepee]

Because we must achieve a fully exhausted knowledge of smash, even if that means veering off into the irrational/impractical!

Speaking of which, I think we've quite exhausted the topic of falco's "worst move", which I think I can accurately sum up as, "on scale of the poorness of a majority of the cast's moves, none of falco's qualify definitively as his worst". How about we transition to something else?

Say, I've been practicing a lot against CPUs lately, and I've been implementing a lot more "empty waveland" onto platforms after I've knocked an opponent vertically into tumble animation (so that he will be in a tech/no-tech situation). Obviously it's difficult for me to judge precisely the viability of strategies against CPUs, but I reckon the empty waveland is underused by most falcos in favor of shine->waveland, which, while it's very effective, also seems to me to add a certain small window of reaction time for an opponent to escape combos. Part of what makes shine->waveland attractive to falcos is due, I hypothesize, to a sort of giddiness to continue the combo, which manifests itself in their choice to throw out the quicker, if not necessarily better, option.

What do you think?

I've been doing more of that myself lately. Using less shine can allow you to get on the platform faster since you don't have to cancel it or anything, and if they miss the tech and you shine them when shine is staled then they would fly up too far to be punished.

Often, people just need to slow down and consider all options or chances to manipulate someone while tech chasing. This is one of those big things that would be a product of that I feel.

 

[Beat!]

Yeah, it's pretty decent. But Falco doesn't have any terrible moves, so we're left with the "not-super-good" ones.

Edit: dat PP ninja
This post was @Shroudedone

 

[Bones0]

Isn't Falco's over B faster than Fox's? Also, you can edge cancel it to get rid of the lag. It's a fairly reliable recovery option...

Side B: Phantasm/Illusion

Total: 59/63
Falco starts moving away: 17/21
Hit: 18-21/22-25
Time to press B and stop Falco/Fox: 17-20/20-24
Can grab edge as early as 25/29

Landlag: 20/20
Landfallspeciallag: 3/3

I hear a lot of people saying "OMG Falco's side-B is so much faster!" but it's only 4 frames quicker. It's not a completely pointless difference, but the difference is negligible in most cases outside of stuff like trying to jab them out of it, or if you just barely reacted in time in the first place. It isn't like people consistently punish Illusions much better than Phantasms. I'd much rather have Fox's increased difference and ability to grab the ledge REALLY quickly if you are right up against it.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Not to say that you don't have a point, but two frames makes the difference between Fox's jump and Falco's. I would think that there is an issue also with going out to gimp the spacie, too...

Then again, I find it about the same gimping Fox and Falco's over B's (I didn't even know they had different names...)

 

[samizdat]

I've been doing more of that myself lately. Using less shine can allow you to get on the platform faster since you don't have to cancel it or anything, and if they miss the tech and you shine them when shine is staled then they would fly up too far to be punished.

Often, people just need to slow down and consider all options or chances to manipulate someone while tech chasing. This is one of those big things that would be a product of that I feel.

Okay, PP, now you've got me thinking about my own game. I recall when I first started shine->wavelanding, how I would abuse the life out of that move even when I saw it wasn't working for whatever reason, and yes, slowing down, being more deliberate in throwing down my moves, I would say, helped remedy that.

So I ask: what are some similar moveset/followup tendencies in your game that you've addressed mentally (i.e., by slowing down)? Off the top of my head, I can think of a number of habits I've had to correct in a similar fashion, such as throwing out lasers randomly, dash-dancing without having good position or clear purpose, automatically jumping OOS, etc., but those are all pretty general.

Anyhow, what I'm wondering is, would you be able to identify some of the lesser obvious habits/tendencies that you've overcome? Specifically, have you made any tweaks in this regard that at first seemed minor, but gradually surprised you by how greatly they've opened your vision for tech-chasing?

These questions of course go out to any and all.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Okay, PP, now you've got me thinking about my own game. I recall when I first started shine->wavelanding, how I would abuse the life out of that move even when I saw it wasn't working for whatever reason, and yes, slowing down, being more deliberate in throwing down my moves, I would say, helped remedy that.

So I ask: what are some similar moveset/followup tendencies in your game that you've addressed mentally (i.e., by slowing down)? Off the top of my head, I can think of a number of habits I've had to correct in a similar fashion, such as throwing out lasers randomly, dash-dancing without having good position or clear purpose, automatically jumping OOS, etc., but those are all pretty general.

Anyhow, what I'm wondering is, would you be able to identify some of the lesser obvious habits/tendencies that you've overcome? Specifically, have you made any tweaks in this regard that at first seemed minor, but gradually surprised you by how greatly they've opened your vision for tech-chasing?

These questions of course go out to any and all.

Over DD'ing, over Bair baiting, and lasering without purpose are some big ones. You can see all of those problems in P5 GFs in my opinion(though it's debatable to say when some of those things are effective and aren't, but use your best judgment). There are more but those were the first 3 that came to mind.

I feel like combos are crucial to handle in this way. Observing DI and choosing how to manipulate it for your own benefit is huge, and if you go by pre-programmed stuff then you may miss opportunities to KO or set up for more damage. Always look to innovate.


As for tech chasing, I just remember to read based on what move I used, stage positioning, and opponent habits. That tends to carry me pretty far, but I'm still working on manipulating techs better haha.

 

[Mew2King]

when trying to react to something, especially when you subtract human reaction time (mine is about 14 frames based off that online test , so I'd assume most would be somewhere in that ballpark more or less), trying to react to a move that hits on frame 18 as opposed to 22 becomes like 10 times harder by comparison. Think about it. That's an ENORMOUS difference.

 

[tarheeljks]

disagree that 4 frames is a negligible difference. doesn't break the recovery or something if you take add it, but he comes more gimpable. that movement from 17-21 is starting to push into territory where people can feasibly react given the distances being covered. also, it's difficult to compare punish frequency of phantasm vs illusion b/c illusion seems to be used less frequently due to fox's superior up b.

 

[Deleted member]

falco's side b is cool cause you can style edge guards.

only bad people listen to me.

 

[Bones0]

Yes, I kind of meant to emphasize that more in my post that if you are just purely reacting it can make a difference, but I feel like most people predict side-Bs and often don't punish until after it's over anyway. When you look at the ratios of 59/63=0.94 vs. 17/21=0.81 it becomes pretty clear that it makes a difference when reacting, but if you are just going to wait for the move to finish anyway, 4 frames makes much less of a difference.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Only people with less posts need to listen to you


... thats still me (can't tell if i should put a V__V face or a ^__^ face)

 

[Winston]

Yes, I kind of meant to emphasize that more in my post that if you are just purely reacting it can make a difference, but I feel like most people predict side-Bs and often don't punish until after it's over anyway. When you look at the ratios of 59/63=0.94 vs. 17/21=0.81 it becomes pretty clear that it makes a difference when reacting, but if you are just going to wait for the move to finish anyway, 4 frames makes much less of a difference.

It also makes a big difference if you're trying to cover multiple options.

 

[Deleted member]

reaction time is overrated

learn to read so you can have snail reaction speed like me and still do well and look sexier in the process

 

[Dr Peepee]

Being able to punish any decision faster than the opponent is a pretty valuable asset in games, I'd imagine. However you're right in that it certainly can be covered for the most part by solid reads and a tricky game plan. It's obviously best to have the two abilities(reads and reactions) together, but some people do not have that luxury, so one skill must be focused on more to compensate, which is what you did, S2J.

I don't know if that makes reaction time overrated or not, but if it takes away from the focus on reads then I suppose that's a fair statement.

 

[Bones0]

Just because you can read doesn't mean you shouldn't use spell check.

 

[choknater]

just gotta be fit physically and i think reaction times are always on point

also gotta all the opponent's options so you know what to expect

doing stuff like shine out of shield at the right frame should be as natural as a knee jerk reflex

 

[0Room]

Well that's a lot of internal knowledge
Physically thinking about it just isn't going to cut it
Did you ever play Guitar Hero?
Thinking about what buttons you needed to press was a quick way to lose

My issue with reading is that
Being wrong sucks

 

[genkaku]

Trying harder works wonders lol

 

[Bones0]

Yeah, sometimes it feels like focus is something like 80% of the game. There's such a huge quality difference from being in the zone and focused to being laid back and auto-piloting. When you auto-pilot you'll randomly realize you have 1 stock left and just wonder, "WTF just happened?" Alternatively, when you are really focused, somehow the SAME thing happens, but your opponent will be the one with 1 stock left, and you again wonder "WTF just happened?" lol

 

[Dr Peepee]

If you can't explain why most of the game played out, then I think that's a serious issue. It can be as general as "I outcamped him" or something along those lines, but not knowing why you're doing well or doing badly seems like a waste of play time to me.

Granted, I didn't understand for the longest time until recently when I learned how to really play to affect my opponent instead of just react to them, but I encourage everyone else to learn that lesson much sooner than I did haha.

 

[FrootLoop]

in falco dittos, what are good options when I lose the laser war? I usually find myself shielding before the other falco and then I am forced either to hold shield until they approach or I take to the platforms and try to falling laser/aerial/nothing my way back down once I feel safe. I don't want to have to deal with their mixup on my shield because I shielded one laser, but I can't really find a way to get my laser back out there once they have freedom of movement and laser timing.

 

[_Kadaj_]

Ok so PP I've come to a pretty solid point in my melee game again and I've feeling pretty good about it. Now I just need to know how to do that **** stuff, and tips on where to start?

 

[Dr Peepee]

in falco dittos, what are good options when I lose the laser war? I usually find myself shielding before the other falco and then I am forced either to hold shield until they approach or I take to the platforms and try to falling laser/aerial/nothing my way back down once I feel safe. I don't want to have to deal with their mixup on my shield because I shielded one laser, but I can't really find a way to get my laser back out there once they have freedom of movement and laser timing.

Do a high laser OOS so you can hit them if/when they jump and trade lasers which resets everything to neutralish laser game.

I mean, you could just drop your shield, take a laser, then SDI it or take your space and do moves to force them to not laser, or both. You don't have to shield after getting lasered and that would probably help you get started with thinking of other things to do.

Platforms also help like you said, and if you can get them to jump up to shoot you then you can go down and get bottom control. Trading lasers or your aerial for their laser is also pretty good from a platform and establishes that laser war once again.

I usually either do that stuff or bait their approaches with WDs and then try to punish or get my laser out then since that means they have to quit shooting to approach.

Ok so PP I've come to a pretty solid point in my melee game again and I've feeling pretty good about it. Now I just need to know how to do that **** stuff, and tips on where to start?

shuddup craig

do more lasers right???

 

[joejoe22802]

So much knowledge is dropped in this thread. omg****

 

[0Room]

It's what makes coming to this thread cool
even if you don't play Falco

 

[ShroudedOne]

I am a Peach main that learns the most from here. It's weird.

 

[flaw]

I'm having trouble punishing fox's whiffed aerials. Do I just not have the timing yet?

Specifically down air coming from a platform or full jump... it's so obvious yet by the time I WD back or dash dance away to come back with whatever, fox has l-cancelled it and is already running away. Should I just dodge and laser it and then play the approach fox's shield game? If it was anything but down air I would CC it and get the shine or hold shield high and shine OOS but dair is tricky.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Well if it's just Dair you're worried about, then Uptilt should be able to solve that problem(since you're talking about moving to avoid it anyway).

 

[flaw]

How safe is utilt when fox is above you? Can fox double jump and punish you for it?

 

[Metal Reeper]

Falco's Utilt has more priority than all of Fox's aerials. If he is above you just keep Utilting lol.

 

[EWC]

Nah uptilt is pretty safe if they're right above you. If they are spaced a bit away they can sometimes trade/beat it with bair though.

 

[Deleted member]

Being able to punish any decision faster than the opponent is a pretty valuable asset in games, I'd imagine. However you're right in that it certainly can be covered for the most part by solid reads and a tricky game plan. It's obviously best to have the two abilities(reads and reactions) together, but some people do not have that luxury, so one skill must be focused on more to compensate, which is what you did, S2J.

I don't know if that makes reaction time overrated or not, but if it takes away from the focus on reads then I suppose that's a fair statement.

hmm yeah ur right

most falcons though only wanna do regrabs through reaction and ignore reads n stuff

 

[stingers]

Granted, I didn't understand for the longest time until recently when I learned how to really play to affect my opponent instead of just react to them, but I encourage everyone else to learn that lesson much sooner than I did haha.

yoo ive been thinking alot about this concept recently
but whenever I think about it, it all just seems to come down to mobility being necessary...
how can a character with limited mobility options really do this effectively?

 

[_Kadaj_]

In most cases the characters that lack mobility often have projectiles to help when it comes down to being "faster or more agile."

But this is PPs thread hahaha

 

[Winston]

hmm yeah ur right

most falcons though only wanna do regrabs through reaction and ignore reads n stuff

I feel like you just have that impression cause 0room and I post a lot or something

almost all the falcons I play or see go for reads way more often than reaction