PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[JPOBS]

this is not the extent of what he is saying though

i was responding to you directly.

I'm not sure I fully understand what Umbreon is saying so i won't comment on it directly until the conversation progresses a bit more.

 

[tarheeljks]

well that's not what i was saying either.

edit: it's not just that peach can be used better by a better player-- that is de facto true. his comparison of how armada plays peach compared to a lesser peach player vs how shiz plays falco compared to a lesser player encapsulates his point well imo


and is what i was attempting to summarize in saying "moreso than other characters"

 

[Bl@ckChris]

I was thinking something more like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBaVO-jd-xo

I can't think of many less talented players that could imitate armada, as opposed to say all of the recent shiz falco clones.

so...you're saying that peach combos harder than falco? or are you saying that armada combos harder than most falcos...?

because although the means to acquire an opening are the same, it appears you're saying that armada's peach is able to punish harder than falco. i am not a connoisseur of either character, but...that seems like an interesting statement. the fact that it takes tremendous skill to actually DO a combo with peach is definitely true. my personal experience with vanz tells me that he's also able to combo pretty well off of few openings, but that's beside the point.

if you simply mean to say that peach has a multitude of ways to create openings which are complicated to execute and even more complicated to capitalize on, then i agree. if you're saying that once she gets an opening she can punish harder than falco, i'd have to disagree.

 

[Wenbobular]

I think he's saying that it's harder to do Peach combos than Falco combos

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

more skilled doesn't necessary more talent. Talent is more like "potential". Skill usually refers to match-up experience, stage knowledge and game theory. I consider player experience a separate category altogether.


Whether talent actually exists is a completely different subject that i shall not bring up. My opinion on that flip flops enough on its own.

 

[Veetaak]

I think that peach can punish Falco better than Falco can punish peach on some maps, atleast BF. Peach is not the easiest to combo as falco (compared to other chars) but you do get alot of help with the plaforms but so does Peach as she can juggle you on the platforms with uairs. But I get most of this from watching Armada on BF. I can't really recall a match where he has lost to a falco on BF except for maybe PP at pound 5.

 

[Beat!]

On the other hand, PP pushed Armadas **** in on BF.

 

[leffen]

BF is the most neutral stage in the matchup imo, with falco having an advantage on YS/PS and peach winning the rest.


Oh and I love people underrating peach just because peach players suck lol.

 

[Divinokage]

BF is the most neutral stage in the matchup imo, with falco having an advantage on YS/PS and peach winning the rest.


Oh and I love people underrating peach just because peach players suck lol.

So if it ain't Armada, everyone else sucks? lollll.

 

[leffen]

lollll that sentence doesnt even make sense.

and considering how far ahead he is atm, you can say that yeah.
There isnt even another peach who knows/uses half of the **** he does

 

[choknater]

the macdizzles got this

 

[Mogwai]

re: Umbreon's Peach argument, I agree that her bag of tricks is more rewarding than most other characters but I still feel like Peach's play is all waiting on a mistake =\. I dunno, maybe I'm missing something, I just tend to think matchups where 1 player is in control while the other waits on a mistake to punish super hard are ultimately in favor of the player in control, which is exactly how I see Falco vs. Peach. Also about stages, if Peach bans PS while Rainbow Cruise is available, Falco should get a free win on Rainbow Cruise every time.

has anyone put to use the invincible leg thing for falco's dsmash? i always forget in game

I've used it before but it's retardedly risky. It's basically just calling dsmash and if you guessed right you get a ~20% dsmash and if you guess wrong Peach has her way with you. High Risk, relatively low reward... not worth it IMO.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Imho, Peach is always going to be hard to deal with if the player is on an equal level of skill with you.

 

[Divinokage]

Hmm pretty sure waiting on a mistake is everyone's play by now.. which is ****ing gay, but wtv. I now know how Mango feels about the current metagame and I felt it last tournament. Doing some safe **** all the ****ing time, ugh so annoying!

 

[Bones0]

When did this era where insane recklessness ran the metagame happen? The way I remember it, people used to play way more campy at the top level. It seems less and less beneficial to be "playing defense" the more the metagame progresses because having control is so much better. I can relate to the feeling of having to do everything safely, but I would argue that being smart with aggression is a much safer play style in the long run compared to smart with passivity.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I don't really know many Falcos who won't actually approach.

 

[Deleted member]

almost every char in this game has to play around looking for openings. but thats not a metagame so much as the game itself.

and frankly, I think peach is fine at approaching. i'd rather fight a campy peach than an aggressive one.

 

[Beat!]

Yeah, Armada does some nasty **** to shields.

 

[JPOBS]

i don't really see how a peach could hope to successfully camp falco anyway

 

[Niko45]

Shiz isnt the gold standard of falco anymore so the idea that falco players are closer to his level than peach players are too armada should be really obvious.

and even tho Armada is the best peach Vanz is certainly worth mentioning as great peach player that punishes super hard.

 

[JPOBS]

Vwins is also great.

but like with everything in this community, out of sight, out of mind.

 

[Veetaak]

Yeah, Armada does some nasty **** to shields.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWRsVZupBtc&feature=player_detailpage#t=395s

Yeah, he does.

 

[unknown522]

I don't really know many Falcos who won't actually approach.

really?

are you sure?

 

[Tee ay eye]

whats better

LASER OR DAIR

 

[Druggedfox]

OR

ten ORs

 

[Lightsyde]

I've used it before but it's retardedly risky. It's basically just calling dsmash and if you guessed right you get a ~20% dsmash and if you guess wrong Peach has her way with you. High Risk, relatively low reward... not worth it IMO.

Charging Falco's Dsmash to avoid Peach's Dsmash is definitely called the "I know you are but what am I". It feels soooo good. It's really beast when they are kinda high percent and near the edge. It works super vs characters with low smashes like Peach, Samus, Doc etc.

Also, it's much easier to charge Dsmash Marth when he is trying to sweet spot an UpB recovery. If you charge before he starts to do it, the blade that would normally kinda hit your through the stage doesn't typically do so anymore. I like it a lot vs recoveries actually, mainly Marth's UpB and Firefox.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I've used it before but it's retardedly risky. It's basically just calling dsmash and if you guessed right you get a ~20% dsmash and if you guess wrong Peach has her way with you. High Risk, relatively low reward... not worth it IMO.

Its best use is when they miss a tech.

Peach has better burst damage than a lot of characters...

 

[Lightsyde]

Its best use is when they miss a tech.

Peach has better burst damage than a lot of characters...

That's genius if you know they are going to do a get up attack. But wouldn't they just be able to react and roll away if they saw you start to charge a Dsmash? I feel like if you are in a position to run up then charge a smash you probably could have Dair'd or Shined them off the ground, laser reset them, or just immediately Fsmashed.

Still might be good to use in some situations though...

 

[Bones0]

That's genius if you know they are going to do a get up attack. But wouldn't they just be able to react and roll away if they saw you start to charge a Dsmash? I feel like if you are in a position to run up then charge a smash you probably could have Dair'd or Shined them off the ground, laser reset them, or just immediately Fsmashed.

Still might be good to use in some situations though...

You could empty SH to bait a get up attack (cause they'll predict a dair) and then charge a dsmash.

 

[Orko]

@The Falco Community:
How do you guys go about punishing rolls?

I'm starting to learn Falco punishes hard with combos. I understand when I misread tech rolls that's my fault. It's not those, but standing rolls.

I'll throw an nair out and it will get blocked by a sheild, I land it into the shine, but they roll away from me. I know the safe option is to laser, but it banes me to see my opponent to get away with such cowardly tactics.

Then main person who does this is my Ganon friend. When he comes out of roll, I get hit with a Jab.
-I tried Dair to punish the roll, but i get jabbed on the frames of my jump. Same with Nair, even when I do an early aerial.
-I tried DDing, but it's a jab, so its not very punishable.
-I tried CCing into shine, but the jab pushes me just far enough back.

He's coming over today so i'm going to try again!
Any suggestions? I'm hoping CCing into Dtilt will work.

 

[Wenbobular]

Just waveshine forward if they're rolling away from you all the time ...
Likewise if you're just pushing them toward the edge because they're always rolling away that's good for you too ... eventually they just run out of space to run away

 

[Dr Peepee]

@The Falco Community:
How do you guys go about punishing rolls?

I'm starting to learn Falco punishes hard with combos. I understand when I misread tech rolls that's my fault. It's not those, but standing rolls.

I'll throw an nair out and it will get blocked by a sheild, I land it into the shine, but they roll away from me. I know the safe option is to laser, but it banes me to see my opponent to get away with such cowardly tactics.

Then main person who does this is my Ganon friend. When he comes out of roll, I get hit with a Jab.
-I tried Dair to punish the roll, but i get jabbed on the frames of my jump. Same with Nair, even when I do an early aerial.
-I tried DDing, but it's a jab, so its not very punishable.
-I tried CCing into shine, but the jab pushes me just far enough back.

He's coming over today so i'm going to try again!
Any suggestions? I'm hoping CCing into Dtilt will work.

Dair and don't shine(react) or waveshine forward are good. Overshooting your aerials means he won't roll where he's used to since you're already there and that can mess with him.

For jab, just Fsmash or Bair lol. Combo'ing is great vs Ganon but sometimes just hitting him to get him a little more damage for an easier combo later+keeping stage control is better vs that character. Honestly, you could even wait out the jab and then just go back to pressuring him if you wanted to. He'll run out of room eventually, but just make sure he doesn't get away with a roll behind you then so you don't lose everything you were working toward.

Edit: CC Dtilt could be cool. Not sure how that would go at lower % anyway....

 

[Bl@ckChris]

ganon *****, he will get the jab no matter what you do.

your demise is guarunteed.



jk u have options lol.

 

[Divinokage]

ganon *****, he will get the jab no matter what you do.

your demise is guarunteed.



jk u have options lol.

Nah he doesn't have options once you hit him! Doom awaits every Falco!

 

[FoxLisk]

yo dawg ganon's jab is mad punishable if you know it's coming. they always jab to hit you when you're gonna be at them so you just DD dair and then they're either still in lag or back in shield and have to keep losing space or playing a guessing game from a really bad position. if your opponent literally always does that then you can just do the following:

dair his shield
run up to where he's rolling to
dash back
dash forward and dair
****

but like persumably he'll mix it up. my main point is that DD ****** ganon's jab is super legit

 

[unknown522]

vids from our tourney this weekend are up:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=303229

there are vids of BAM and Vwins as well.

 

[KirbyKaze]

That's genius if you know they are going to do a get up attack. But wouldn't they just be able to react and roll away if they saw you start to charge a Dsmash? I feel like if you are in a position to run up then charge a smash you probably could have Dair'd or Shined them off the ground, laser reset them, or just immediately Fsmashed.

Still might be good to use in some situations though...

Platforms. Also if they stand up, Peaches often panic and D-smash/sidestep and this would work against both of those.

This whole tactic revolves around them doing something they shouldn't so it's better to Dair them or something anyway but it's kind of cute if you think/know they're gonna do something stupid.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Who cares about how to punish rolls? Ganon can't win by just rolling away from you all match. Eventually he'll get trapped in a corner and rolling in won't get him out of that obviously (lol spaced auto cancelled bairs).

 

[Orko]

Thanks for the responses!
@DRPP: Pressuring seems like a good option. I've noticed you and Mango have really good pressuring options and I've been trying to incorporate that into my play. Although, I've noticed that I find it hard to pressure without feeling my spacing and punishing lax. I tried playing without lasers today, and noticed a lot of the time that I was using them as a crutch.
I didn't think of Fsmash as an option. I try to not throw it a lot, because it's so punishable. But I suppose if I can read the jab, a Fsmash is a very good option.

@Kage: <3

@ChivalRuse: I understand that he'll roll himself into a corner eventually, but these are friendlies. You don't always practice the "safest" options in friendlies. If I can figure out how to punish rolls vs. him, my opponent will have one less option, and when I go into tourneys, I'll have that much more experience.

I really appreciate the responses. Rolls seem to work more against me then most people, and I'm just trying to learn how to make sure I'm destroying to my full potential. Can't let the beak down.

 

[choknater]

i think people overrate punishing rolls cuz of mango. it's really good of course haha, but people who are aware that they're punishable can go for jumps, roll away, attacks out of shield, wd back, etc

however rolling toward the mid puts the char in the safest position, which is why mango fishes for it a lot.

compare to another player, armada, who seems to fish for jumps....

and another player, peepee, who seems to be always in a positional advantage and can punish almost everything, but sometimes forgoes continued offense to maintain positional advantage...

peepee too good.