PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[linkoninja]

Question: I like to warm up as Falco against a level 9 cpu Fox.
When I'm shining him though (starting from 0%) I can combo for about 40% though
but then the shine-D-Air combos just stop having enough hitstun (I think) and the Fox hits me out of it. But it seems against an actual human (as seen in countless videos) these combos work for much longer periods. What makes the computer able to escape. I KNOW it's not DI cause the best players in the game have gotten 0-deathed by Falco
and level9's don't DI

 

[Bl@ckChris]

level 9's have inhumanly good DI so...i think that might be it.

doesn't human DI end around like level 3-4?

 

[linkoninja]

level 9's have inhumanly good DI so...i think that might be it.

doesn't human DI end around like level 3-4?

I thought they didn't DI though
that's why you can practice your Chain Grabs against a Fox as Marth
and throw his *** for the whole game if you wanted to

 

[Bl@ckChris]

maybe for throws...or at least they'll often do the same DI. but that might be for level 1's. cause i know as ganon, if i wanna practice the hardest regrab, which is full DI behind, i go for level 1 sheik. the others do different things, maybe straight up or something. but you have to notice how retardedly long level 9 computers live... i think they always DI in or something.

 

[Wenbobular]

I'd practice on Sheik all day if she didn't transform into Zelda -_-

 

[choknater]

same lol mad annoying.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Thanks for the responses!
@DRPP: Pressuring seems like a good option. I've noticed you and Mango have really good pressuring options and I've been trying to incorporate that into my play. Although, I've noticed that I find it hard to pressure without feeling my spacing and punishing lax. I tried playing without lasers today, and noticed a lot of the time that I was using them as a crutch.
I didn't think of Fsmash as an option. I try to not throw it a lot, because it's so punishable. But I suppose if I can read the jab, a Fsmash is a very good option.

Well yeah you give up spacing to pressure, but that's because you're in someone lol. You can't JUST pressure or JUST space, you have to know/think about which you'd prefer to do and when you need to transition between the two(spacing I'm using lasers for as well so you're typically doing one or the other a lot).

Also, if you're not getting punishes when you pressure, then you're mindlessly pressuring. Why do you pressure in the first place? You're trying to force that roll or beat their OOS option. if one way of pressuring isn't getting you a punishment, then you need to try another(mixing in waiting is better than you'd think).

Question: I like to warm up as Falco against a level 9 cpu Fox.
When I'm shining him though (starting from 0%) I can combo for about 40% though
but then the shine-D-Air combos just stop having enough hitstun (I think) and the Fox hits me out of it. But it seems against an actual human (as seen in countless videos) these combos work for much longer periods. What makes the computer able to escape. I KNOW it's not DI cause the best players in the game have gotten 0-deathed by Falco
and level9's don't DI

Ummmm after 40% the Dair knocks any Fox into the ground on his back and then the shine will be staled so it'll pop the Fox up into that floating animation which I guess he hits you out of....

Falcos aren't Dair shining for a whole stock so around 40% you have to start doing different stuff if you want to finish a combo.

I thought they didn't DI though
that's why you can practice your Chain Grabs against a Fox as Marth
and throw his *** for the whole game if you wanted to

They do DI usually lol. cpus are funny.

Also they sometimes DI throws but usually not much or in only one direction I think. Been a while since I've done it.

same lol mad annoying.

yeee

 

[Fried Ice Cream]

How do I deal with getting shinespiked by a Fox? I have no chance of recovering vs him. Also, can I get some tips on the quickest way to get Fox off-stage, preferably without a jump, so I can edgeguard/spike him?
(PAL version btw, but any help is appreciated!)

 

[Dr Peepee]

How do I deal with getting shinespiked by a Fox? I have no chance of recovering vs him. Also, can I get some tips on the quickest way to get Fox off-stage, preferably without a jump, so I can edgeguard/spike him?
(PAL version btw, but any help is appreciated!)

Don't use your second jump if he's going out there unless you can side B before he gets to you? Otherwise you're gonna need the second jump to have hope of making it back(but you just have to try to avoid the situation in general). Maybe don't up-B so close to the stage?

Throwing Fox offstage then Ftilt'ing/jabbing his double jump is a pretty cool way to set that up. I'll shine Twitch and he won't DI onstage sometimes so I just Fsmash him off into an edgeguard.

 

[Orko]

Peepee's prescription is pressure with purpose.

Got it.

 

[crush]

Falcos aren't Dair shining for a whole stock so around 40% you have to start doing different stuff if you want to finish a combo.

i like to dair shine dair shine short hop uair short hop sourspot reverse nair fsmash edgeguard

 

[choknater]

i like to wave dash 3 times and short hop waveland before nanapulting a blizzard into guaranteed grab

WRECKS any character's spacing

 

[oliman]

a pretty nooby question, but i was playing some ice climbers that wouldn't approach and would shield when i got close enough to them, then grabbed me as i naired/daired their shield, which lead to a bunch of percent. should i laser a lot? should i sh nair so i land behind them? should i feign approach, then dair?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

grab them and dthrow. if you are going to hit their shield, dont get grabbed. this means either space outside their grab or hit their shield just before you land and shine immediately so they don't have frames to grab u.

 

[Dark Hart]

Is dthrow the best throw vs climbers?

Why not fthrow or even backthrow

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

fthrow could work, but bthrow would not effect both climbers. Dthrow protects you from the other climber very well, and nana doesnt tech so you can get a free dsmash/dtilt KO on her if you grab her. If you happen to grab popo and throw him, you could still do a strong move since 1) hes likely not to tech and 2) no matter what nana is going to be hit.

 

[Dr Peepee]

i like to dair shine dair shine short hop uair short hop sourspot reverse nair fsmash edgeguard

Don't do the same thing every time. Doesn't always work then lol.

a pretty nooby question, but i was playing some ice climbers that wouldn't approach and would shield when i got close enough to them, then grabbed me as i naired/daired their shield, which lead to a bunch of percent. should i laser a lot? should i sh nair so i land behind them? should i feign approach, then dair?

What Sveet said works fine. =)

In addition to that, you can also screw around until you think they'll come out of their shield and then try to hit them.

Is dthrow the best throw vs climbers?

Why not fthrow or even backthrow

I never liked Dthrow vs ICs since Wobbles just shield grabbed me when I started doing it, but it seems pretty good if they just freak out whenever you grab them lol. Bthrow sucks unless the other climber is behind you and you'll just get hit in lag otherwise. Fthrow is cool because you can hit one with the other as one tries to run away for a second to avoid the grab or just needs to regain composure or they try to hit you and you use the throw armor(I have no idea if that's what it's called but it ***** lol) frames to hit them both.


Edit: Grabbing ICs is usually not what I recommend earlier in a match/when you don't have momentum.

 

[FoxLisk]

i like to dair shine dair shine short hop uair short hop sourspot reverse nair fsmash edgeguard

this doesnt work because

a) uair only combos if your opponent DIs it like trash and
b) having them in a spot where you can reverse weak nair them is NOT guaranteed

but yes its sick when that kinda thing happens

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

You had me thinking about fthrow against ICs and i wondered how well fthrowing one and then immediate the other would work since there is shield stun when the through hits their shield.

Frame 9 starts the fthrow. In this animation I wasn't sure of specific frame numbers ahead of time so there are 1 frame gaps in certain spots. The throw could start earlier
Frame 17 starts hitlag and shield stun. Hitlag is 4 frames.
Frame 21 starts the next frame shield stun, for a total of 4 frames shield stun
Frame 24 is the first actionable frame for the other IC
Frame 41 is the end of the throw animation. Unsure of IASA frames.

This basically confirms what I was thinking before: Solid mix-up but punishable on block.

After that I throw popo and hit nana.


Frame 62 popo hits nana. Hitlag lasts 4 frames.
Frame 66 starts the next frame of hitstun.
Frame 93 popo touches ground. This is with no DI input, and since the throw does not cause him to be knocked down at that percent, he immediately goes into his landing animation.
Frame 94 nana's first actionable frame after hitstun, though she won't hit the ground for many more frames.
Frame 97 is the first actionable frame for popo.

This part of the experiment showed me that if one of the ICs gets hit by the other instead of shielding, they are at a negative advantage.


My conclusion is that fthrow will work as a mixup if they grab after you or try to escape their shield at specific timings. It is not safe on block by any means, though it might be likely to get away with it in a real game.

 

[Mogwai]

dthrow's just better. the laser splash hitbox is too good at keeping the other one off your nuts.

 

[Divinokage]

Can't you just get shield grab everytime you try to fthrow?

 

[Lightsyde]

Grabbing the IC's when they are together has never worked out super well for me. I really like SH shine -> waveland to split them and then I'll throw them around/start combos etc. SoPo can get really messed up if the Falco has a good grab mix up game. Fthrow -> Laser -> Fsmash can be **** vs SoPo (and floaties in general).

Regardless, I've played with Dthrow and Fthrow a good bit since I play with two very decent IC's, and they both have their uses but grabbing them at all before you split them up seems really risky.

 

[choknater]

as an ic main this is what i think about chars grabbing ic's

it's a 50/50 gamble cuz if u grab popo, you're in REALLY good shape. grabs are guaranteed separation, and it's a good kind of separation where you have the ic's on opposite sides of you, or one in the air or one on the ground.

so the best grabs are gonna be those that can still be at an advantage if the character happens to grab nana. popo can shield grab most other grabs with hitboxes, but u still gotta use those... that's why i think falco's dthrow is the best option, cuz it's pretty difficult for popo to punish. but like pp said, it can be shield grabbed.

however, if you do grab popo.. you can throw in any direction and be at a huge advantage lol.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Grabbing synced ICs is a good thing to do when you feel like gambling.

Grabbing desynced ICs ***** (if you throw them into each other haha).

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

dthrow's just better. the laser splash hitbox is too good at keeping the other one off your nuts.

Im gonna do a similar post for dthrow in a little bit.

Can't you just get shield grab everytime you try to fthrow?

Yes, yes you can.

 

[choknater]

if you have momentum, grabbing ic's is just a godlike thing to do, esp in the corner. even if you do grab nana, it's a good choice to fthrow if it will push popo off the ledge. you have positional advantage and nana is very likely to die.

just be careful tho. ic's that are good at the matchup won't be shielding very much, and will find other ways to deal with lasers that don't have to do with shielding. even laser->grab is not safe, we can fsmash, ice block, blizz, or ftilt if we see you might approach.

you gotta bait ic whiffs and stuff.. i think grabbing is something u should only do if you see patterns in their movement or actually do scare them into shielding.

 

[Divinokage]

Well if you can, that's not really considered a proper mix-up at all. It's not really a mindgame when you can just react to it no problem. lol.

 

[choknater]

if u fthrow popo it's not very likely that nana will shield grab u at all. popo does it easily, thats why its a 50/50 risk and not that great unless it's by the ledge

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

If they are near the edge, does the fthrow generally push the shielding IC to the edge?

 

[ChivalRuse]

It would, but ICs will never shield by the edge. They'll roll in before they get caught in that position.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Good point. Anyways, i have to get some school work done now. I'll probably do the dthrow test/gif just for giggles later.

 

[choknater]

eh? i'd never roll in vs falco haha. but i guess that makes grabbing me free!

LOL well

rolling in is good when u can tell a non-marth character is gonna approach.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I roll against Marth all day. Taking my lessons from Chu haha.

 

[choknater]

hm. youre right haha. but still, tip range still makes it scary for us to roll.

anyway, i think roll in vs falco is decent if he's not fishing for it. tho i'd much rather ice block, blizz, fair, nair, or waveshield from the corner.

or just wavedsmash if im feeling ballsy

 

[ChivalRuse]

Just DI optimally during our vulnerable frames, and all will be well.

 

[choknater]

i guess haha. i dont like getting hit!

 

[ChivalRuse]

You're going to get hit no matter what happens. You just have to know when to sacrifice getting hit for the greater good!

 

[JPOBS]

For science!

 

[Druggedfox]

Falco winning = greater good? =D

 

[ChivalRuse]

Well ... I play ICs. :D