*Pound* 4:: VGBootCamp Debut! Two days. Plank's sanity remaining: 50%

[Laijin]

snip

Your a combo thief.
We don't' take your kind around here.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Your a combo thief.
We don't' take your kind around here.

That better have been a joke.
Besides, if it wasn't a joke then I guess everyone would have the same opinion of you.
Doubt it wasn't a joke though. lol

 

[thumbswayup]

something like this should be done. I remember talk of it last year

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_iO1WvDPik&feature=related

5:03

"We did ok, if you consider ok being 10 stocked by the east coast"

lmfao

 

[Toronto Joe]

so its top3 make it out of pools?

 

[Plairnkk]

@derfleur no, instead of fewer pools of tons of people, ill opt to use tons of pools of fewer people. That's the beauty of having tons of setups.

if we have 300 people i'd like to do 75 pools of 4, top 2 advance. That's why I am making sure we have at least 75 tvs.

Pools of 4 = each pool has 6 sets. 6 sets should be done in an hour and a half EASILY, and that would eliminate 150 people.

Pools round 2 (150 entrants remaining) would be 32 pools of 5 (a few would only have 4) top 2 make it out. Pools of 5 = 10 sets on 2 tv's per pool= again, around an hour and a half easily.

This would leave 64 people left, from there do 16 pools of 4, top 2 advance. Each pool has 3 tvs=pool done in like 45 minutes.

Assuming we had 75 tvs and the balls to dq people ****ing off (which i do), with this format (giving an hour inbetween each round to make the next set of pools) singles pools for pound 3 could finish ENTIRELY in under 6 hours. Obviously the likelyhood of this is low, things will happen to slow it down, but finishing 3 rounds of singles pools in under 8 hours would still be nothing short of revolutionary.

That's why i'm providing so many setups myself. Tournaments ALWAYS lack setups, and this will be different for pound 4. The amount of sheer time saved and able to be used for friendlies/crews/etc is so vast, but I think it's unrealized a lot of the time because nobody has ever really pulled off a tourney with TRULY enough setups.

Until now.

>=]

(as long as people bring cubes/wiis/tvs if you can even tho im bringing a ton)

 

[Hylian]

@derfleur no, instead of fewer pools of tons of people, ill opt to use tons of pools of fewer people. That's the beauty of having tons of setups.

You know this is bad for seeding right? It's better to have more people get out of a pool so you have more accurate results to seed with.

If you have 8 people getting out of a pool(not saying you should just this just a random example) you have:

1st fighting 8th
2nd fighting 7th
3rd fighting 6th
4th fighting 5th

Great for seeding! You don't need to do much manual seeding at all, only make sure the top 4ish players are away from each other in the brackets.

If 3 people get out

1st fights 3rd
2nd fights 2nd.

..It's much more...shallow.

You can accomplish both in the same time with the amount of set-ups, especially with good pool leaders. Just assign multiple TV's to each pool. It will also save you time making the bracket since everything will auto seed from pools so well.

Just a suggestion.

 

[Alex Strife]

pool leaders always make mistakes and the good ones are so few in between. If they do it where each person plays one match instead of having someone play all their matches at once we would get better seeding for the most part.

 

[Plairnkk]

You know this is bad for seeding right? It's better to have more people get out of a pool so you have more accurate results to seed with.

If you have 8 people getting out of a pool(not saying you should just this just a random example) you have:

1st fighting 8th
2nd fighting 7th
3rd fighting 6th
4th fighting 5th

Great for seeding! You don't need to do much manual seeding at all, only make sure the top 4ish players are away from each other in the brackets.

If 3 people get out

1st fights 3rd
2nd fights 2nd.

..It's much more...shallow.

You can accomplish both in the same time with the amount of set-ups, especially with good pool leaders. Just assign multiple TV's to each pool. It will also save you time making the bracket since everything will auto seed from pools so well.

Just a suggestion.

I don't know what kind of TO's run your area, but that seeding is entirely wrong. If 3 people make it out of pools the two seed fights a three seed and the one seed gets a bye. At least that's how I've always done it.

Fewer people making it out encourages everyone to try their best in pools. At pound 3, with so many people making it out, people ****ed around in the first few rounds and created DEATH pools later in the tournament because so many people were low seeds who shouldn't have been.

 

[Alex Strife]

Isn't there a way to encourage people to play serious and force them to?

 

[Plairnkk]

No, because people will always **** around if they feel they can get out anyway without question. What can I say? Hey, you HAVE to use your main in pools!!! This will also help fix that people don't let other people win to try to get them into the bracket. A loss is a big thing in a smaller pool, so it's definitely WAY more competitive and serious, rather than a waste of time like a lot of times big pools are.

 

[Alex Strife]

oh thats true. I hate seeing people do that in order to get in. Inui tried that at COT4 for cristin and she was upset cause she wanted to get in legit.

I wish people weren't such ******s and trying to get their friends into brackets .

back when I first started I did top 2 out of 8 people in a pool...man that was HELLA fun.

 

[Hylian]

I don't know what kind of TO's run your area, but that seeding is entirely wrong. If 3 people make it out of pools the two seed fights a three seed and the one seed gets a bye. At least that's how I've always done it.

Fewer people making it out encourages everyone to try their best in pools. At pound 3, with so many people making it out, people ****ed around in the first few rounds and created DEATH pools later in the tournament because so many people were low seeds who shouldn't have been.

Don't 32 man brackets not have any byes?

...

Regardless the concept isn't wrong at all. I didn't know you planned to do multiple rounds of pools however. In that case I would suggest doing 3ish people get out in the earlier rounds to avoid death pools in later rounds.

For the last round of pools you can just form larger pools so it seeds the bracket better. Say 6-8 or whatever gives you a perfect 32 man bracket. This keeps bias out from manual seeding(which is almost impossible to avoid sadly) and provides accurate seeding that people earn through pools.

Obviously it's your tournament, I'm just throwing ideas out that you will hopefully take into consideration.

 

[Plairnkk]

2 out of 8 is just rough. 2 out of 4 is great cuz it's still 50% of people and as long as you have the setups to support it, it's perfect.

Why play pools of 8 who have to play 28 sets to decide top 4 getting out when you can play pools of 4 on two different tvs and each pool plays 6 sets simultaneously.

 

[Plairnkk]

Don't 32 man brackets not have any byes?

...

Regardless the concept isn't wrong at all. I didn't know you planned to do multiple rounds of pools however. In that case I would suggest doing 3ish people get out in the earlier rounds to avoid death pools in later rounds.

For the last round of pools you can just form larger pools so it seeds the bracket better. Say 6-8 or whatever gives you a perfect 32 man bracket. This keeps bias out from manual seeding(which is almost impossible to avoid sadly) and provides accurate seeding that people earn through pools.

Obviously it's your tournament, I'm just throwing ideas out that you will hopefully take into consideration.

Well how would 3 people out ever make a 32 man bracket? 10.666667 pools?

With registration online and the ability to seed ahead of time, I feel this is the most efficient way to avoid death pools, but thank you for the suggestion.

I tried more people last time and so many elite players just don't try their hardest in pools if they don't feel challenged or threatened. Thus this created even worse death pools in round 3.

(Chu dat loses to 2 people in his pool because he uses pichu and knows he will still get out with a 3rd or 4th seed ez). Chu then gets placed in a pool with other people who ****ed around and got 3rd/4th seeds along with the players who actually earned 1/2 seeds and didn't **** around.

Scenarios like this, when people dont care because of a large # of people making it out, are what make death pools so prevalent, imo.

I think people are more scared than they need to be. top 2 out of 4 and top 4 out of 8 are the same exact odds of making it out, simply more efficient by cutting the # of sets down and making people buckle down and not throw matches.

 

[_Kadaj_]

As long as my pool doesnt get ****ed over Im cool

btw where's my 1st seed ***?

Candy get's 1st seed but not me? blasphemy

Plank what about a 64 man bracket?

 

[Renth]

My brother lives like 5 miles away from that venue!? why am I just NOW realizing this? Provided on money concerns i'll be here but it might just be with a spectators pass.

 

[Mike B]

Thinking of going with SaviorsLegacy; really hoping I can.

 

[stelzig]

I think it has more to do with concerns that you only get to play 3 games and not so much that you are less likely to advance.
I know i'd prefer bigger pools just so i wouldn't get eliminated so quickly, but actually get to play some people *in tournament*

It wouldn't matter to me much and i'd also prefer if the people i play actually try, but i think people who don't expect or are unsure of making it out would prefer bigger pools

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

So the danish smashers are coming to pound 4?

The more Scandinavians the better =)

 

[Plairnkk]

I think it has more to do with concerns that you only get to play 3 games and not so much that you are less likely to advance.
I know i'd prefer bigger pools just so i wouldn't get eliminated so quickly, but actually get to play some people *in tournament*

It wouldn't matter to me much and i'd also prefer if the people i play actually try, but i think people who don't expect or are unsure of making it out would prefer bigger pools

I agree with this fully, but at the same time I have to present the question "If you WERE going to get eliminated first round of pools, would you rather play 6-7 sets and be eliminated and have almost no time for friendlies (since pools of more people take EXPONENTIALLY longer) or would you rather have pools of 4 and get eliminated early and have days to play basically ANYONE you want?

 

[hungrybox]

plank holding it down

 

[Jonas]

So the danish smashers are coming to pound 4?

So far it's only me and stelzig

I agree with this fully, but at the same time I have to present the question "If you WERE going to get eliminated first round of pools, would you rather play 6-7 sets and be eliminated and have almost no time for friendlies (since pools of more people take EXPONENTIALLY longer) or would you rather have pools of 4 and get eliminated early and have days to play basically ANYONE you want?

I haven't been to many big tournaments, but in retrospect I probably should have played more friendlies with random people I didn't already know.

 

[Slhoka]

I agree with this fully, but at the same time I have to present the question "If you WERE going to get eliminated first round of pools, would you rather play 6-7 sets and be eliminated and have almost no time for friendlies (since pools of more people take EXPONENTIALLY longer) or would you rather have pools of 4 and get eliminated early and have days to play basically ANYONE you want?

Well then, if the people who don't make it out of the pools are able to play friendlies, that means you're not using all the TVs, which is a pretty bad idea if you you want to finish the tournament quickly. Sure they could play friendlies during the bracket, but why play friendlies when you can watch games between the top 32 players of such a big tournament ?
Also, playing a tournament set is totally different from playing friendlies, and I think I'd prefer to play a bit more tournament set than 3, even it makes me play a little less freeplay.

Also, if you make pools of 4, as Hylian said, it's really bad for the seeding. Not to mention the fact that your initial seeding needs to be really good if you want to avoid some unfair results.

Making such tiny pools in order to play a whole best of 5 bracket doesn't sounds that logical to me, too. Don't get me wrong, I fully support best of 5 brackets and do that most of the time at my tournaments.

It just my opinion though especially because I probably won't be able to come.

 

[stelzig]

Yeah i actually would plank. I don't see myself walking up to and asking alot of good players for a match. I also could use some extra time/tourney matches to get into the right mindset. But as i said not the biggest deal i'm sure i could find some people to play with (maybe some 2v2 with jonas since we did decently against some swedish teams in that), but it just wouldn't be the same

So the danish smashers are coming to pound 4?

The more Scandinavians the better =)

Only me and Jonas and our skill level and experience is way behind rest of scandinavia. Only i have been a little involved with the community over a long time (attending RoX4 in 06, and TSL4 as well as a smaller swedish tournament this year and playing stadium for high scores even earlier - i believe i still hold a few WRs), but i'm pretty bad and inexperienced in vs and also a bit slow. My most known smash accomplishment is probably cruel melee strat and score with samus (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsGSvphhVtE&feature=channel_page) as well as my discovery on how to easily exploit the whole cpu immobilzation (or rather how to activate it) with all characters forming the marth strategy which especially helped alot in PAL (doesn't make me any good at the actual game though sadly )

But yeah it'll be fun and hopefully me and jonas will be better than the rest of Denmark when we get home :3

 

[stelzig]

Or tomber has also been a bit involved for a few years (also attending RoX4).

Sorry for doublepost, the message is too long for my ps3 to handle

 

[MacD]

Also, if you make pools of 4, as Hylian said, it's really bad for the seeding. Not to mention the fact that your initial seeding needs to be really good if you want to avoid some unfair results.

this this this this this this this...

i'm just curious how you can account for all the 2nd seeds and who they should be, i'd hate to think my chances at moving on in pools is up to plank's miracle seeding and a couple of matches

if i screw one up... good bye pound 4 and the hundreds of dollars i spent to get here

and the only flaw i see with your logic is that you are saying everyone can be using all the tv's at once with X pools of 4... so why can't every tv still be used with Y pools of 6 (or 8 or whatever)

 

[Plairnkk]

Alrighty, I'm taking everyone's opinion into consideration definitely, nothing is set in stone obviously. We will see what happens with the final # of entrants and tvs and we will get it worked out. I can guarantee though I won't make pools bigger than 6 ever

 

[ajp_anton]

What about
48 pools (of ~6), top 4.
32 pools of 6, top 3.
16 pools of 6, top 2.
32-man bracket.

 

[Plairnkk]

I will never do pools of 6 with top 4 advancing. If less than half the entrants get eliminated it's just a waste of time in my opinion.

 

[Foxy]

I will never do pools of 6 with top 4 advancing. If less than half the entrants get eliminated it's just a waste of time in my opinion.

Agreed.

First round 4/6 advance would be hell, tons of great players would be throwing matches and ******* around.

However, it really is a complex problem for pools, and the solution needs to meet at least the following goals:

1. Is time efficient (utilizes as many setups as possible)
2. Provides enough guaranteed matches to satisfy low-level players
3. Provides enough enough evenly-seeded matches before elimination to satisfy mid-high level players (depending on how well the seeding can be done to balance pools with only 4 players)
4. Provides few enough matches and advances few enough players to keep top-level players from feeling that they can throw matches/sandbag/goof around and still make it out of their pool
5. Allows for a well-seeded 32-man bracket

Bad cases for each goal would be:

1. Uses only a portion of the total setups at once, either due to having too-large pools or having bad pool leaders
2. Low-level players come, find themselves in a 4-man pool with 1 other good player and 2 other great players, give their best in one best-of-3 set and then stand absolutely zero chance against the great players, and barely even got one real tournament set out of the cost of playing
3. Mid-high level players come and, despite being skilled enough to make it far in pools or to the bracket, their chances are heavily based on who is in their pool; a lot of them may be knocked out simply due to individual players/matchups within the first pool or two, and would be upset at the seeding because it arbitrarily cut them early
4. Large pools are made to accommodate #2 and #3, but then top players don't use their mains, sandbag and throw matches, or intentionally let other players get wins to make it out of pools as well, and later on death pools are created because of those low seeds that both make unfair later pools for some players, and wrecks seeding/players in the final bracket
5. The seeding in the final bracket is almost random because there wasn't enough data from pools (I think it could easily be seeded by hand though, so this shouldn't be a concern)

Anyways, obviously some of these goals will have to be dropped or taken at a lower priority in a final solution, but I feel it's the gist of the problem.

 

[hungrybox]

man

just let the TO do his work

if he fails

then we'll have 1 pool of 300, top 1 advances

 

[Hylian]

Nothing wrong with giving suggestions. No ones saying planks going to do anything wrong lol.

 

[Plairnkk]

Yeah I have no problem getting input from people. In the end it's my final decision, but I want to make sure I satisfy the most amount of people possible and although I am pretty much almost perfect in every way, I do suppose other people may have ideas worth hearing.

 

[hungrybox]

Foxy is so sexy.

 

[Virusbluemage]

I think you should have more 1 round of pools like you did at Pound 3. I think that's part of what made that tournament so great, it was different from the typical 1 pool and then bracket tournaments.

 

[ajp_anton]

I will never do pools of 6 with top 4 advancing. If less than half the entrants get eliminated it's just a waste of time in my opinion.

My idea was that instead of eliminating half on each round, eliminate less on the first and more on the 3rd/last.
This way the first round will act more as some sort of seeding for the later rounds.

 

[Virusbluemage]

My idea was that instead of eliminating half on each round, eliminate less on the first and more on the 3rd/last.
This way the first round will act more as some sort of seeding for the later rounds.

That sounds like a really good idea, but to have only the top 2 advance in the final round of pools would be kind of brutal.

 

[Lobos]

As long as my pool doesnt get ****ed over Im cool

btw where's my 1st seed ***?

Candy get's 1st seed but not me? blasphemy

Plank what about a 64 man bracket?

He mostly talking about melee, brawl would have to do it another way because of the amount of time it takes...(plus amount of setups we have)

 

[lou4222]

It seems like a 64 man bracket for brawl would be reasonable. With the top players from the West, South, Midwest and East coming for brawl it seems like all entrants in the 64 person bracket would be incredibly solid. If it is only a 32 person bracket some very very very good players wouldnt make out because they got caught in a stacked pool.

Also will there be any sort of seeding for very good players that have never traveled to a national tournament. There are several players from the midwest in particular that arent known on the EC. I know it is virtually impossible to know, but there could be some killer pools and people ending up getting screwed ebcause some amazing players arent accounted for. Maybe a respected TOs from each region could help seed pools. Just a thought.

 

[RockCrock]

Just got my plane ticket. Sup.