Peach Weekly Match-Up Discussion - Forever Outdated :(

[hiROI]

Does this mean we can keep on Dairing on her shield and she cant do anything?

 

[Razmakazi]

well if you're careless ur gonna eat utilt oos and she could try to nair you. you just gotta be smart about it though coz i know for sure that zss never wants to be forced in her shield.

 

[hiROI]

lols yea of course to be careful and such`
But we can be on her shield for days though right?
Like turnip, fair, jabs on her shield and be safe

 

[Razmakazi]

yeah and like tons of bair.

 

[mountain_tiger]

On Zamus:

doesn't Dair go thorugh her Usmash?

If you space it very, very well, I think so. That's a plus.

and i don't think Zamus' will ever use Nair, unless under certain contitions, or its my Zamus.

Nair doesn't get used all too often, but sometimes they'll use it due to the weird angle it hits at and fairly long range. It even has true combos after it. The only moves ZSS has that should never be used are FSmash and UThrow.

other than Dsmash or B combos ups Zamus other ones are just followups.

Mostly yes. Only one or two others are actually 'true' combos.

also Mnt T armor pieces **** can go both ways cause you can catch them and use them back at her.

Theoretically, yes. But that's easier said than done. Chances are they may throw one or two pieces away, and use the other one in such a way that you'll have few opportunities to grab it for yourself.

Does this mean we can keep on Dairing on her shield and she cant do anything?

It's not that she can't do anything, but her options are fairly limited. After a while, you may get a Fair or retreating Plasma Whip to the face.

Is this all based off of Wifi matches? :x

What makes you say that?

mountain tiger, our shield pressure on zss and that we can force her into her shield or into jumping by using turnips, and the fact that shielding is soooo good vs zss are such big things that it makes this matchup 50:50. ;o

The shield pressure does help us out a fair bit, but it's not the be all and end all of the matchup. You have to plan it well, and they can find ways of avoiding it, such as rolling away, though if you can predict this then you can continue the pressure. Dairing over and over won't work, since they'll catch on. Not to mention you have to space it perfectly, else you'll eat a USmash or even a UTilt. Plus she has a pretty good shield pressure game herself. Granted, Peach normally has a very good ooS game, but since her Bair has good range, if she spaces it excellently it's more or less unpunishable. Then there's DTilt, which can't be shieldgrabbed due to her low crouch, so if you want to attack her, you're going to have to do an aerial, which can be predicted. Shield pressure works, but you have to be smart about it.

What really hurts Peach the most is that if you make any mistakes, any at all, ZSS can punish you hard. Realistically, it's borderline impossible to go a whole 3-stock game without making at least one mistake. In addition, her juggling really hurts us too. Her Uair is arguably one of the best in the game, and it either beats out or trades hits with our Dair. Even if it trades hits, we'll be the ones that are worse off as a result. The best option is to get to the ground ASAP, which isn't always easy because even when fast-falling Peach is kinda floaty, and if you try to airdodge her Uair, due to its quick animation she can do another Uair before your vulnerability ends.

It's not unwinnable for Peach; you're still in with a chance. But the matchup isn't even. At best, it's 45:55, but IMO it's 40:60. 50:50 implies that both characters have an equal chance of winning, when really that's not the case.


BTW, moving away from ZSS, IMO ROB should be 55:45 our favour, not 50:50.

 

[Meru.]

I'm glad you asked. Well, here we go.

ZSS, when used in the right hands, is really, really good. For a start, there are her armor pieces. Fortunately, they don't last all that long, but they're a royal pain in the *** when used properly. She can use the armor pieces to make a 'wall' of armor in a sense, greatly increasing her defensive potential because it can make it harder for you to land attacks on her. Once they're gone, you can force an approach on her due to our superior projectile, but ZSS doesn't have much trouble approaching anyway so that doesn't help too much.

True, they are a pain in the a$$, though they're not that bad as you say. Not sure.

Once her armor pieces have disappeared, she's still a tough cookie. For a start, ZSS can get us out of floating VERY easily, whether that be by spaced Plasma Whips or Bairs or possibly even USmash. I'm 99% sure her Bair outranges our Fair, and it's also quicker and has more KO potential.

Don't float like an idiot. Dark Pch has the right to kill you. Don't abuse Peach's air game.

ZSS is also known to be a great juggler. Meanwhile, Peach is the queen at being juggled, what with her poor air dodge, slow falling speed and large size for her weight. In addition, her Uair cuts through our Dair due to disjoint, assuming they space it right, and once again it's quicker. Not to mention that ZSS has a lot of anti-air moves up her sleeve: USmash, up B and Plasma Whip can all punish incorrectly spaced Dairs, so watch yourself.[/qoute]

I don't know about this. Have you tried Nair or Bair when you're getting juggled? Or her second jump? Possibly her UpB?

And of course there are the infamous DSmash combos. If you make a mistake e.g. rolling at the wrong time, landing from her parasol attack etc., then you get almost 40% hammered straight into you, which is approximately a third of the damage needed for her to kill us. When fresh, Bair, Fair and Plasma Whip all kill at around 120-130%. She also has a number of other combos unrelated to DSmash, usually involving dash attack or Uair or the like.

That sounds bad, but do not forget that we can also combo ZSS quite easily.

Contrary to popular belief, ZSS is NOT easy to gimp. Good ZSS players will DI semi-spikes and similar moves upwards, and from there her large second jump (made even larger by Boost Jumping) and Flip Jump can almost always make it back. Her tethers should only be used as a last resort, and even then, if you don't time it right, she can bring you down to her level, and sometimes even have time to re-tether to the edge afterwards! If you try to attack her, you have to be very careful, else you'll receive a Flip Jump kick to the face and be meteor smashed to your doom.

I don't know, but Peach might be able to gimp ZSS quite easily. She can keep floating at the ledge. When ZSS is trying to recover or trying to hurt her, she can grab the ledge for invincibility frames. Afterwards she can keep second jumping to gimp her.

However, Peach isn't completely helpless here. For a start, ZSS is vulnerable to shield pressure due to a lack of reliable ooS options. Her shieldgrab is very slow and easy to avoid, and from there she doesn't have too many options. She can Nair, Fair and possibly do a retreating Plasma Whip, but other than that, she folds to shield pressure a fair bit. Thus, Dair and Fair pressuring her shield is even more effective here.

ZSS is also known for being very light, even more so than Peach, meaning that Peach doesn't have quite so much of a problem killing her. She still kills us earlier than we kill her, but you can usually get the kill in by 140-150%, even though she has a good momentum cancel.

You'll want to be using turnips a lot here. ZSS has numerous very long ranged attacks, and turnips are the only ones that have much chance of competing. And, as said before, her lack of effective ooS game means you can't be punished too much if they get shielded. Oh, and here's a small tip which you probably know already: if you DI down when she jabs, you can powershield the third hit.

In conclusion, ZSS is a tough matchup overall, but if you know what to do it's still winnable for you, which in my opinion is what defines a 40:60 matchup. I just find it incredibly hard to believe that it's even. At best it might be 45:55. If you actually bothered to read all this, thank you for your patience.

P.S. Dark Pch., please don't kill me.

I can't disagree with this, I guess. Except with the ratio. I'm sorry, but none of this has really convinced me into thinking this is a 40-60. But we'll see, maybe you're right.

@ ROB: It has been agreed that ROB is a 60-40 in our advantage.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

What makes you say that?

Because sir, we are British

It's nothing to be ashamed of if this is based on Wi Fi but it's important to clarify if it is or not

Eh, OoS Turnip everything ZSS does, failing that OoS SH Dair will probably do stuff to her. If she continually pesters you with spaced Bairs and the like, Glide Toss at her or Dash Attack her...I think


Also guys, make your mind up about who you want to discuss You were all talking about Olimar so I put the Rediscussion up...and it's been pretty much ignored. Do you guys care about discussing these things anymore? :/

Ness is most definitely not even. I 2-0'd FOW in a MM. If Peach knows the matchup, she can severely limit his options. Truss me, Ness is my secondary, I know more about the matchup than probably anybody.When I use Ness versus Praxis' peach it's also really hard compared to when I use yoshi. However it's 80-20 in ness advantage on pirate ship. Pk thunder is literally useless against Peach due to dair, she doesn't have kiling issues as the dash grab chaingrab allows you to refresh moves. Peach up air actually beats Ness's dair as well..there's a lot of option limiting she does to him. He has the back throw, and his fair's can really make it tough for her to space, but she can retreat with turnips. Pk fire is non effective as peach is light and smash DI's out instantly....played at a high level it's 60-40.

FINALLY. Thankyou Edrees, I couldn't agree more

You missed about the part about being able to Fair him from a Jump Release, you know about that right?

Unfortunetly, trying to convince people otherwise is like getting blood out of a stone...it isn't happening until you lose your temper, pick the stone up and violently throw it at them

Sorry, couldn't help myself

 

[Meru.]

o_o Want a stressball? Some chocolate? A prank?

Anyway... Yeah, why aren't we rediscussing Olimar? Has everything been said already? o.o You should do the next one, I guess.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

o_o Want a stressball? Some chocolate? A prank?

Anyway... Yeah, why aren't we rediscussing Olimar? Has everything been said already? o.o You should do the next one, I guess.

xD

What prank would you do anyway Shoot me with a water pistol? D:
Chocolate would be very nice though :D

But yea if anyone cares, the Olimar Rediscussion thread is here

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=245085

 

[mountain_tiger]

True, they are a pain in the a$$, though they're not that bad as you say. Not sure.

Well, it depends on how well they're being used. If you can grab one for yourself that helps out a lot, since Peach can do some nasty stuff with them too.

Don't float like an idiot. Dark Pch has the right to kill you. Don't abuse Peach's air game.

Those are generally for when you mis-space float (which, realistically, is likely to happen at least once during the match). Floated Dairs can be useful, but you have to be more careful than usual, otherwise you'll eat up a Fair or Bair. Just saying it doesn't affect her quite as badly as with some other characters.

I don't know about this. Have you tried Nair or Bair when you're getting juggled? Or her second jump? Possibly her UpB?

Nair and Bair can sometimes work, but it's not foolproof. For a start, you're still vulnerable to Uair, which you should be seeing a lot since it's one of ZSS' best moves. If you fastfall it, it can potentially trade hits, but since it'd be the latter hitbox that connects we're worse off as a result. Plus her Bair and I think her Fair as well outranges those moves. Up B can make a nice surprise manouever, but if you miss with it you're screwed. But hey, it might be worth a try.

That sounds bad, but do not forget that we can also combo ZSS quite easily.

I'll give you that. Just saying that ZSS has a lot of options up her sleeve when it comes to combos. And unlike Peach, her combos basically guarantee a kill at 120%+.

I don't know, but Peach might be able to gimp ZSS quite easily. She can keep floating at the ledge. When ZSS is trying to recover or trying to hurt her, she can grab the ledge for invincibility frames. Afterwards she can keep second jumping to gimp her.

Ah, that's the thing. That's only if she's recovering from a really low angle. Good ZSS players DI horizontal attacks upwards, thus meaning that their Boost Jump + Flip Jump will almost always be sufficient to make it back to the stage. She shouldn't have to use her tether much at all. If she does, then you still have to be careful, because Peach has a few frames of vulnerability while second jumping to the ledge. ZSS will die, yes, but she can use up B to take you down with her.

I can't disagree with this, I guess. Except with the ratio. I'm sorry, but none of this has really convinced me into thinking this is a 40-60. But we'll see, maybe you're right.

Fair enough. Maybe I'm being a bit harsh with 40:60. It could possibly be 45:55. But I find it very, very difficult to imagine it being even.

@ ROB: It has been agreed that ROB is a 60-40 in our advantage.

OK, cool.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Guess I'll post 2 things I leanred while fighting this canadian falco names minus in bracket.

1- If falco is camping you, while you are getting inside with the shield. If you dash attack him while he shots a laser in the air, you will hit him and nothing he can do about it. He is open and you won't get hit by the laser.

2- If falco lasers you while moving to grab you or attack you, jab out the shield and it will stop falco from doing what he wanted to.

So 2 new things I learned about this match up. Pretty cool for me to know. And maybe for the rest of you.

 

[Meru.]

Okay, got it.

 

[Praxis]

Guess I'll post 2 things I leanred while fighting this canadian falco names minus in bracket.

1- If falco is camping you, while you are getting inside with the shield. If you dash attack him while he shots a laser in the air, you will hit him and nothing he can do about it. He is open and you won't get hit by the laser.

You...didn't know this? And thought the matchup is 50:50?

The mind reels.

 

[Razmakazi]

nvm ignore this @_@

 

[Dark.Pch]

You...didn't know this? And thought the matchup is 50:50?

The mind reels.

Put a sock in it. And to be honest. 50 bucks says you did not know this. Nice try hot shot.

 

[Metatitan]

Here we go again

Praxis has known about this for like... ever. In fact for the past month and a half he's been telling me something new practically every day that we can punish with jab OoS or Dash Attack OoS.... or anything really that he discovers with peach.

 

[Cia]

oh lord.. i love you guys, but the peach boards really are the worst in Smash History

 

[Dark.Pch]

Here we go again

Praxis has known about this for like... ever. In fact for the past month and a half he's been telling me something new practically every day that we can punish with jab OoS or Dash Attack OoS.... or anything really that he discovers with peach.

I'm not buying this and I surly am not getting into this with you. it's always you coming out of left field as usual starting something. I'm not getting into this with YOU here. So let it go.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Put a sock in it. And to be honest. 50 bucks says you did not know this. Nice try hot shot.

The Dash Attack idea is one of the first things put in the Falco Rediscussion thread, I think Sky put something about it on the first page. It's something I do against Falco's as well

 

[Dark.Pch]

I'm surprised I never did that.or maybe I have and don't remember. I'm gonna look about when I was talking abouy falco. Maybe I said it. Maybe I did not. Still find it wierd how I did no't use it or recall using it. And I been doing fine. Wanna see a lil change when I fight them now.

 

[Excel_Zero]

Where's the Snake rediscussion thread?

 

[Airgemini]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=230745

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Okay so we all know you can dash attack to avoid a laser and hit falco, either we knew before or we now know. who cares when we found out and move on.

 

[Meru.]

I've seen that location before.

 

[White-Peach]

oh lord.. i love you guys, but the peach boards really are the worst in Smash History

How can you say that? We're like a shady fruit stand. New, fresh peaches that still need time to mature. Old peaches that start to taste like alcohol (have you ever had those? they're pretty good imo) and older peaches that are going bad. We have really delicious peaches at their peak, and terrible peaches making the other peaches look bad! And, of course, we have a crazy guy manning the stall, trying to haggle for peaches. Tries to pass off the bad peaches as good peaches, even for the low low price!

Yeah, you try that with a snake stand. One-stop voodoo shop. I'll stick with the creepy guy trying to hock peaches

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

How can you say that? We're like a shady fruit stand. New, fresh peaches that still need time to mature. Old peaches that start to taste like alcohol (have you ever had those? they're pretty good imo) and older peaches that are going bad. We have really delicious peaches at their peak, and terrible peaches making the other peaches look bad! And, of course, we have a crazy guy manning the stall, trying to haggle for peaches. Tries to pass off the bad peaches as good peaches, even for the low low price!

I actually lol'ed xD Best Peach Boards analysis ever

Old Peaches that taste like alcohol...rofl

Am I the Peach in the display cabinet? Cause just sit waaaay out of reach, far away from all the Peachs and don't actually do anything, I just sit there and try to look pretty

 

[mountain_tiger]

What type of peach am I?

 

[Dark.Pch]

Now everyone knows that I am the true reason Peach drama is around these boards. If I was not around, there be none and that is the truth. But that dream with be a reaility. I won't be posting much around here anymore. I can take a hint from what I see this weak and how people like to annoy me. I can take a hint. Just gonna work on myself and do good in tournaments like I have been. I'll put all the focus on me from now on.

So with that said, there will be no drama. You guys should be happy now. Just like the Peach boards were ment to be

 

[White-Peach]

I actually lol'ed xD Best Peach Boards analysis ever

Old Peaches that taste like alcohol...rofl

Am I the Peach in the display cabinet? Cause just sit waaaay out of reach, far away from all the Peachs and don't actually do anything, I just sit there and try to look pretty

What type of peach am I?

Rickerdy: Yes. Some kind of strange british peach just for show. Or a peach tea

Mountain: You're also some kind of strange UK peach. But with a really bad name. "Apple."

 

[Meru.]

I disagree. Rickerdy has always been a great help for the board. You're smart and you have done tons of things, likes the match-up thread. Also, you know a lot of things about Peach and smash, so you're really helpful.

Same for mountain_tiger, btw. You are a good debater and that's great. It's also good you doubt things, so they'll get discussed. So yeah. Both of you don't go to tournaments, but you're both still helpful. And you guys are just fun ;p

Me? Well, I haven't done anything useful for Peach AT ALL. But why would I care. I'm only here to give the boards love, happiness and joy

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Me? Well, I haven't done anything useful for Peach AT ALL. But why would I care. I'm only here to give the boards love, happiness and joy

same here, all i've done is write Fox and Peach adventures in the picture thread lol

 

[Metatitan]

Now everyone knows that I am the true reason Peach drama is around these boards. If I was not around, there be none and that is the truth. But that dream with be a reaility. I won't be posting much around here anymore. I can take a hint from what I see this weak and how people like to annoy me. I can take a hint. Just gonna work on myself and do good in tournaments like I have been. I'll put all the focus on me from now on.

So with that said, there will be no drama. You guys should be happy now. Just like the Peach boards were ment to be

The drama starts when you overreact to things said. If you took a deep breath and cooled down so that you didn't get so angry at me people all the time, then there wouldn't be a problem. If somebody insults you then just ignore it or say "excuse me?" or something to make them look bad instead

 

[Mikey Lenetia]

We just discussed the Mario matchup in the Mario boards, and we all pretty much agreed on 55:45 for Peach, with a few people arguing for 50:50. They also don't seem to want to rediscuss the matchup again, since we argued the same thing the last time they discussed the match...

So, do we just adopt their rating, or should we still discuss it?

 

[Metatitan]

I'll try to play vato if I ever get the chance and give input. Also Mikey if by some miracle I can make it to pound 4, blue peach dittos?

 

[Mikey Lenetia]

I'll try to play vato if I ever get the chance and give input. Also Mikey if by some miracle I can make it to pound 4, blue peach dittos?

Sounds lovely. ^_^

 

[Cia]

omg, Dtilt Slide > ground float is Earth shattering news. Why was i not informed?

 

[gantrain05]

i told you peaches! Dtilt is too good. also what kind of peach am i? the one that never posts and doesn't contribute to much of anything lol. i love you guys!

 

[deepseadiva]

Peach can wavedash???

 

[Niko_K]

I love D-Tilt with my life! One of the best options IMO.

 

[Metatitan]

We all know Excel_Zero is terrible at discussing matchups (since he has no idea where to start), so I asked specific questions on the snake matchup. He went from terrible at discussion to amazing at it ;x

When you play Snake, you need to keep SAFE and try the best you can to NOT GETTING HIT (Isai's awesome phrase). If you are in a position when you will probably trade hits, then DON'T DO IT. It's not worth it, since Snake lives twice as long as you do. If you pressure him, you must know how to do it, and you must avoid any risks.

How useful are turnips on him?

Turnips are pretty useful. You can throw turnips and stay safe from his grenades by floating. You need to keep in mind that you can throw turnips while being at a 45° angle from Snake, while Snake can only throw nades at you when he is at a 90° or 0°/180° angle (I can even outcamp Toon Links this way). But you need to understand perfectly how Snake's grenades work, the exact time they blow up, the range/hitbox of the explosion, how the terrain can affect the grenade's trajectory (for instance, if he downthrows the grenade on Halberd's curved floor, the grenade will go at a 45° angled trajectory). You can also punish Snake's airdodge with a turnip (possibly glide tossed) if you have one in hand.

How effective is pressuring him?

Pressuring Snake is really effective, and it's the thing I mostly do when I play them. But you must know how to do it. If you just go aggressive against him without thinking, he will wreck you (especially if he is a good defensive Snake).

You can apply a lot of pressure when he is on the air (that is Snake's main weakness of course, and you as a Peach player must exploit it the best you can). Snake's usual options when falling are:

-Nair (if he is high enough for the Nair to end before landing) [You can punish this by breaking his Nair with Utilt, a turnip, a well spaced aerial, or by shielding and punishing]
-Airdodge [Use your usual airdodge punisher moves]
-Bair/Uair close to the ground [Shield and punish]
-Grenade/Reverse Grenade [Grab him or throw turnip]
-C4/Reverse C4 [Make sure you avoid the C4 and see what he will do next, and punish accordingly]

If you pressure his shield with properly spaced dairs while you float at a certain distance, you will limit his options, because:

-He doesn't have enough time for jumping out of shield and attacking with an aerial, because his aerials have a long startup.
-Even if he has a grenade on hand, Peach's kicks won't hit the grenade (maybe the explosion's hitbox will hit you though, so you need to watch out for that).
-Tilts and smashes won't work.

The only safe option he would have is to rolldodge, and if you keep on pressuring him, eventually he will be shieldstabbed, which can lead into a nasty combo. When he feels cornered, he will probably try to mortar slide to the other side of the stage, maybe try to outspace you with his tilts, pick a grenade, or jump (maybe with Up B), and you must exploit whatever he does and punish the best you can.

Can you use his nades against him effectively?

Use them only if you know how to work with grenades. If you don't, then stay out of their way.

How do you land the kill?

Be extremely patient with this. Don't freak out when you Fair Snake at 150% and he survives like it's nothing. Use your usual kill moves to get his stock, and use his explosions against him if you can. And of course, gimp him if you have the chance.

A cool way to kill Snake is if he places his dsmash and you grab him near it, you can grab release him into the dsmash. Another way is when he uses the C4 recovery, when he gets hits by the C4 you can footstool him to put him in a bad position. Works really well.

How do avoid being killed?

Be extremely careful of his Utilt and C4. They wreck Peach. I really don't know what else to say here. Just, play it safe and don't take risky decisions.

What's the most effective approach and attack on him?

Dair. And turnips.