Peach Weekly Match-Up Discussion - Forever Outdated :(

[deepseadiva]

FINE Edreeses, by all "logical" when organizing your thread.
Congrats on the sticky though. For a few seconds I thought we lost it...

 

[Gea]

For one thing, save yourself the trouble and don't go for the complex Dair combos. Save those for Snake or the space animals and heavyweights. Lucario's too slippery.

Still work, just follow DI to the sides and don't get greedy.

The trick to beating Lucario, however, is killing him early. At low %, Lucario has no killing power, and at high %, he becomes far more powerful. Kill him early on the first stock, and you will probably win the set since you can beat the crap out of him on the next stock before he gets to killing strength.

Somewhat true, but also not. Lucario is the king of comebacks. If you're a stock ahead he gets an aura boost. With everyone you should try to kill them early and get ahead, Lucario is no exception.

Also, learn to deal with his Fsmash. Generally, once Lucario passes 100-120%, he will start spamming fsmash because it becomes really powerful at that point. It lasts deceptively long, and his lag disappears really quick so punishing it with a Fair takes really close timing and might not even be worth the risk.

Good players won't exactly "spam" the move, but it does have iasa frames so he can refsmash when it seems impossible. Also don't hang on the edge too long with Peach, he can space fsmash to pretty much be unpunishable but still hit you hanging on the edge.

When he has under 50% damage, be fearless and beat the crap out of him. When he passes 100%, be defensive but look for key moments to land kill moves.

Under 50% his aerials and certain grabs to aerials chain better.

Lucario can do jab jab into another jab, force palm grab, regular grab, or dtilt, although smart ones will just finish the jab against Peach because she is floaty.

They will go for force palm grab sometimes, and it has lag if missed. Fair to punish is probably the best.

Almost always expect fthrow, especially at high damage. Although... uthrow and dthrow can be combo starters. DI up and towards the corner for all throws, really.

His counter is pretty easy to avoid unless you did something laggy against it. If you trigger it, jump and float immediately out of range (or shield if you don't have time). If he whiffs the counter its a free punish, so take advantage.

Just watch your % and his %.

 

[DrakeRowan]

Also lucario's roll is stupidly fast and good. Many a time I try to approach a Lucario to which they roll behind me a few distances back. I like to try to fool Lucario's into making bad rolls. Thats just me though.

 

[Samuelson]

Luckily, their recovery sucks.

Everything you said sounded decent until that. Lucario's recovery doesn't 'suck' it's just not amazing.

 

[tedward2000]

Also lucario's roll is stupidly fast and good. Many a time I try to approach a Lucario to which they roll behind me a few distances back. I like to try to fool Lucario's into making bad rolls. Thats just me though.

Yes, its a bad habit among the cario's, too much rolling. There are those who have gone "Cold-turkey" if you will.

And also, (even though a smart lucario wont do this often) Double Team. Truly its nothing to be to worried about, but it can be just what we need to get you off guard.

If a lucario attacks and expects a toad, He Might DT, putting you in a bad position.

Also, it works reversely, or RDT. Basically, its lucario attacking from a DT, but from the other way.

It was said earlier to rain turnips on him when he's recovering. All a lucario would have to do is DT it. But, that will put him the wrong way and now too low. So committing suicide.
However, if the Lucario RDT's the turnip, he'll then be lower to the stage and closer to it, a perfect chance to Extreme Speed to the ledge or a cling spot.

And aura boost works both ways. Down stock, +attack power. Up stock, -attack power.
But, don't assume the match is over, ever. Lucario is the King of Comebacks. Aura boost is sooo helpful in so many ways. It can be the factor of winning and losing.
-t2

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Also don't hang on the edge too long with Peach, he can space fsmash to pretty much be unpunishable but still hit you hanging on the edge.

You can easily punish this and deter him from every trying on you again. When holding the ledge just drop to the side and up air instantly. Your up air will have invincibility frames and beat out anything he can throw. Spam this until he gives you space to return. This technique makes you invincibile. The easiest way to see it is to play against DK. Have him spam downsmash on the ledge, and up air drop his downsmash. DK will have no knockback (he has heavy armor during his downsmash) and his down smash wil hit you foot. You won't take damage but he will.

 

[tedward2000]

You can easily punish this and deter him from every trying on you again. When holding the ledge just drop to the side and up air instantly. Your up air will have invincibility frames and beat out anything he can throw. Spam this until he gives you space to return. This technique makes you invincibile. The easiest way to see it is to play against DK. Have him spam downsmash on the ledge, and up air drop his downsmash. DK will have no knockback (he has heavy armor during his downsmash) and his down smash wil hit you foot. You won't take damage but he will.

Lucario can grab you out of the air though.
Yes he has really small grab range on the ground, like tiny, its sad.
But in the air, its insane. He basically grabs flys out of the air. Normal grab is more then double the distance in the air, then on ground.

And even if your in super armor, you'll still be grabbed, ending that, and take some kind of damage.
FP has even farther vertical grab range then grab (double actually), but its slower.

It can be seen, when Lucario is juggling someone with his Uptilt. Once the person reaches the very tip (one more uptilt, and they'd be free), He can just grab you. Its like your magnetic in the air, and fly to his hands in the air.
-t2

edit*
Fixed.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

You misunderstand. I'm not in the air. I'm holding the ledge. I'm holding the ledge, dropping off the ledge during the very end of the brief invincibilty frames you get, and up airing instantly. I'm not getting back on the stage. I up air as I drop, hit whoever is above the ledge unless they spaced themselves far away, and up b back onto the ledge.

Also you cannot be grabbed out of invincibility frames. These are the same invincibility frames you get when you start a new stock.

 

[Gea]

You can easily punish this and deter him from every trying on you again. When holding the ledge just drop to the side and up air instantly. Your up air will have invincibility frames and beat out anything he can throw. Spam this until he gives you space to return. This technique makes you invincibile. The easiest way to see it is to play against DK. Have him spam downsmash on the ledge, and up air drop his downsmash. DK will have no knockback (he has heavy armor during his downsmash) and his down smash wil hit you foot. You won't take damage but he will.

As in he's on the stage doing fsmash... which is too long to do uairs and punish from the edge. If he was that close to the edge a lucario would probably dair instead. But I get what you're saying and I've watched you do uairs from the edge. I'm trying to steal that.

And as for the Lucario that corrected me for saying his recovery was not good... well... it really isn't. He lives a long time because he can DI up to the corner and just fair back onto the stage...

But his up + B is pretty bad. Yeah it can curve, but it does no damage, has cooldown (enough to easily punish) and if he didn't have his wallcling, it would be almost like Sheik's in melee in that you could bait them onto the stage and just punish... repeat. In fact on some stages it is like that.

If Lucario has to use his Up + B... Peach definitely has alot of options to stop it. I'm not saying Lucario's recovery can't get him back onto the stage so much as its punishable. That's it.

And yes, you can't get grabbed out of invincibility frames, hahah.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Well, the goal is to spam this tactic over and over until you see an opening of Lucario let his guard down. What's he gonna do, forward smash over and over again for 20 seconds? Just do it for 5-10 seconds until you see an opening. He will flinch at some point, trust me. It's playing gay but it's a great way not to be edgeguarded.

 

[tedward2000]

You misunderstand. I'm not in the air. I'm holding the ledge. I'm holding the ledge, dropping off the ledge during the very end of the brief invincibilty frames you get, and up airing instantly. I'm not getting back on the stage. I up air as I drop, hit whoever is above the ledge unless they spaced themselves far away, and up b back onto the ledge.

Also you cannot be grabbed out of invincibility frames. These are the same invincibility frames you get when you start a new stock.

Ah, I did misunderstand.
And your right, that's super armor that the grabbing is capable to be used.
thanks for correcting my mistake.
-t2

*edit
the whole vertical grab thing is true though, minus the invincible grabbing thing.

 

[Gea]

Well, the goal is to spam this tactic over and over until you see an opening of Lucario let his guard down. What's he gonna do, forward smash over and over again for 20 seconds? Just do it for 5-10 seconds until you see an opening. He will flinch at some point, trust me. It's playing gay but it's a great way not to be edgeguarded.

Er... You can just jump from the lip when he whiffs his fsmash. My point was don't sit on the edge when he's even remotely close. He can fsmash you (aura extends below at least at some point, as does a full aura sphere at times). That's it.

Not saying he's going to do this or that he'll spam the attack. Just that he can fsmash away from the edge and still hit you if you aren't careful.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Er... You can just jump from the lip when he whiffs his fsmash. My point was don't sit on the edge when he's even remotely close. He can fsmash you (aura extends below at least at some point, as does a full aura sphere at times). That's it.

Not saying he's going to do this or that he'll spam the attack. Just that he can fsmash away from the edge and still hit you if you aren't careful.

Yeah, I agree totally. I was just simply offering one alternative to sitting on the edge.

 

[Gea]

Gotcha

10

 

[hova]

yes, a good lucario will fsmash over and over and over while you're on the ledge if he's winning. he has nothing to lose and everything to gain

but like Gea said, just get the timing right and don't try to punish anything

Lucario will fsmash way more than you'll ever expect him to, unless u have experience with lucario, which means u know how much he will fsmash

 

[EdreesesPieces]

yes, a good lucario will fsmash over and over and over while you're on the ledge if he's winning. he has nothing to lose and everything to gain

but like Gea said, just get the timing right and don't try to punish anything

Lucario will fsmash way more than you'll ever expect him to, unless u have experience with lucario, which means u know how much he will fsmash

If you up air 7 times and he forward smashes every time, on the 8th one drop from ledge and re grab it agian, if he forward smash punish him by jumping up with a forward air.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Hmmmm...you guys have some good points, but some bad points too. Lucario's fsmash has very little ending lag, and it is very far reaching. Peach is NEVER going to punish it against a good Lucario. Sorry, but no. At least not in the situations you describe. If we don't space it right, then you might have a chance, just maybe. And your tactic about hanging on the ledge and doing uairs over and over and over again? The fsmash hits underneath the stage just barely. So does Aura Sphere at higher percents or at stock disadvantages when it's bigger. We could run off the stage and c-stick a bair and stage spike you. Dtilt has a good amount of range and hits under the stage. Or we could just dair you. Dair will stage spike you, and it beats your uair and has more range. The whole uair off ledge thing just is not a good idea.

And FP? If we miss and you're trying to punish with a fair, you're going to get hit with the Force Palm Flame. So no, you really CAN'T punish it with a fair. Don't expect Lucario to whiff if very often, but when they do, watch out for the flame at the end or you will get hit with it.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

You cannot hit Peach while she is doing this up air. She's INVINCIBLE. The aura sphere is no match for invincibility frames. If you want I can prove it to anyone who doesn't believe me online.

And the IDEA is for him to space himself properly. If he spaces himself properly you have enough space to get back on the stage if he misses (by just ledge jumping up) . If he gets real close that's when you have to be careful as Gea said , but if he's that close the up air's hitbox is enough to hit him, yes THROUGH his forward smash and THROUGH his aura sphere.

I'm not referring to punishing his forward smash when both characters are fighting, I'm only referring to it under the ledge. When both are fighting I agree, it's not wise to try to punish it because he gets out of it so quick.

 

[deepseadiva]

So some notes as I'm playing a Lucario:

His uair beats our dair a big majority of the time.

Saving the fair REALLY helps. That thing dies to an fair like fire to wet fingers.

Turnips cancel out Aura Spheres (even fully charged ones).

Turnips are overall more effective against him than Aura Sphere is negative to us. Spam them!

His Aura Sphere works so pitifully against us recovering - just float back above his head and they won't touch you in the least.

Lucarios like rolling with their super-awesome-chocolate-covered-awesome roll, but using the downsmash when they get spammy helps a lot.

Peach's fmash comes out faster than his!

Edgehog this recovery nub to death.

 

[SuSa]

So some notes as I'm playing a Lucario:

His uair beats our dair a big majority of the time.

Saving the fair REALLY helps. That thing dies to an fair like fire to wet fingers.

Turnips cancel out Aura Spheres (even fully charged ones).

Turnips are overall more effective against him than Aura Sphere is negative to us. Spam them!

His Aura Sphere works so pitifully against us recovering - just float back above his head and they won't touch you in the least.

Lucarios like rolling with their super-awesome-chocolate-covered-awesome roll, but using the downsmash when they get spammy helps a lot.

Peach's fmash comes out faster than his!

Edgehog this recovery nub to death.

some good points and 2 bad points.

1. I'm horrid vs Peach, no matter what character I am xD and the floating always makes me misshoot my aura spheres (example being I shoot where you'd be if you were any other character :/ aka: just below you) (and this probably affects quite a few people)

2. Only edgehog if they are to the right of FD and cannot reach the lip (wall cling anyone?) or at Battlefield where (as far as I know) there is nothing to cling to :\ (this is speaking just neutrals)

3. Curse that fsmash, and its hitbox behind Peach o_o

4. During uair, Lucario's entire body becomes one giant hitbox. Huge Hitbox + Aura at foot = outreaching your hitbox, therefore cancelling it. So if timed right, the uair should cancel out your dair all the time.

Also. great games Meno

 

[Gea]

Lucario's fsmash has very little ending lag, and it is very far reaching. Peach is NEVER going to punish it against a good Lucario.

Look, I realize it has IASA frames. But guess what? It also has startup lag. Guess what Peach also has. Float. A float that can put me above the fsmash hitbox and fairing while you're still stretched forward. If we're in range for an fsmash, you can be punished for it in some manner.

 

[PRINCESS PEACH777]

I hope next week will be Zelda....

 

[XERAMPELINAE]

I hope next week will be Zelda....

She's a good candidate, but I'd like to nominate Toon Link or Wolf for the next discussion. Anyone agree?

 

[P.O.P.]

She's a good candidate, but I'd like to nominate Toon Link or Wolf for the next discussion. Anyone agree?

i agree with u! Zelda and Peach are pretty much 50 50 anyways like ying and yang so we'd be going on and on and blah blah blah about everything and waste time! Toon link, Wolf, and ZSS are very problematic IMO than some zelda! lol :D

 

[XERAMPELINAE]

^Agreed.

But, I'll take that back about Wolf. I really want to focus on Toon Link and discuss how we can safely approach him and find a way around his barrier of boomerang and arrow spam. I'd also like to study some videos against TL from you guys.

 

[Browny]

search for a vid of wolfblade vs Nikos peach on youtube... i think its a pretty good match between two very good players, although the match isnt close or anything, punishing lucario who spaces approaches is easier said than done as that match will show, as is stopping his recovery.

 

[Morrigan]

No, not Zelda. She's a rare character at tourneys.
Wario, Kirby, Pikachu, Pit or Wolf are good candidates.

Either way, I'm a passive poster in this thread so everything's fine with me.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

I'm not too fussed but I have some info on Pikachu and I think quite a bit of info on Wolf

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

for when you get to it... we finally decided on Peach Vs. Zelda to be 60:40 in peach's favour over here on the zelda boards http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=190698

but there was a lot of dissent and a lot wanted us to change it to even or at least 55:65 so... Iunno... keep that in consideration maybe? also... if you wanna see any points WE covered... you can give it a look

 

[Niko_K]

search for a vid of wolfblade vs Nikos peach on youtube... i think its a pretty good match between two very good players, although the match isnt close or anything, punishing lucario who spaces approaches is easier said than done as that match will show, as is stopping his recovery.

Theres a match up there where I get 3 stocked. If anyone watches that match, I was stoned as hell, off of like 4 grams.

/extreme johns.

Lucario vs Peach is 50:50 imo.

 

[Morrigan]

lol at the johns xD

 

[EdreesesPieces]

The only character you can use stoned johns against is Kirby and his down B move.

I want to close up on some Lucario discussion. Basically, Peach has to effectively use her float in this matchup. Lucario has slow windup but FAST cooldown on all his moves. This moves them easy to punish if you see them coming but hard to punish after they've been pulled off. For this reason I just a bait and attack game the whole way through. Up tilt can beat his down air but he can trick you with its timing. Toad is quite effective against him because you can really see his moves coming much like ROB, they are slow to come out but hard to avoid, so Toad is a nice choice to keep Lucario conservative by making him get hit by it every now and then.

Turnips are CRUCIAL in this match. Especially for edgeguarding.

Lucario can really gain momentum on Peach and survive to highhh percents if her moves get stale. He has ways to combat her priority with his own and he can be quite fast and dangerous. I personally see it as 50/50 as well. What should I settle on, I can't tel the consensus yet.

 

[Peachkid]

before the lucario discussion ends, i do want to add one small thing

Spoiler

Dont ban me Edresse! XD

 

[Gea]

Its 50/50. Coming from both a Peach main and a Lucario main that frequently play.

 

[RT]

Its 50/50. Coming from both a Peach main and a Lucario main that frequently play.

This. I agree.

 

[Morrigan]

When Lucario switches to the Llamacario alt. costume, it's 0/100 Llamacario.

 

[Peachkid]

the llamacario costume is banned in tourney play, and even in casual play too. if u select that costume, sakurai will come after u with a ban hammer and kill u like he did with hitstun and running (tripping)

 

[EdreesesPieces]

That pic made me laugh so hard, and does so everytime I see it. I'm going to add him into Peach's matchups.

 

[Peachkid]

w00tz llamacario gots his own spot in the matchup thread!

 

[Praxis]

The only character you can use stoned johns against is Kirby and his down B move.

I want to close up on some Lucario discussion. Basically, Peach has to effectively use her float in this matchup. Lucario has slow windup but FAST cooldown on all his moves. This moves them easy to punish if you see them coming but hard to punish after they've been pulled off. For this reason I just a bait and attack game the whole way through. Up tilt can beat his down air but he can trick you with its timing. Toad is quite effective against him because you can really see his moves coming much like ROB, they are slow to come out but hard to avoid, so Toad is a nice choice to keep Lucario conservative by making him get hit by it every now and then.

Turnips are CRUCIAL in this match. Especially for edgeguarding.

Lucario can really gain momentum on Peach and survive to highhh percents if her moves get stale. He has ways to combat her priority with his own and he can be quite fast and dangerous. I personally see it as 50/50 as well. What should I settle on, I can't tel the consensus yet.

I agree with all of this, but Lucario's slightly-harder-to-aerial-combo nature, spammable projectiles (campy Lucario's give Peach a lot of trouble even if they're just tossing weak light aura balls), and most importantly, AURA are enough that I would give him a slight advantage. The reason I list the aura is because Peach has a hard time killing- thus, Lucario gets to be more powerful than he is against other opponents that kill him at lower %.

Also, I don't think Toad is as effective as it is against ROB, because he's got some REALLY quick aerials, quick rolls, and his jab combos into almost anything (ftilt, utilt, dtilt, forward-B and grabs).


This is coming from a Lucario secondary who plays against a Lucario main two or three times a week for several hours at a time (my rival, Xefnir, the only person I fight in between tournaments). I also took Ch0ke (best Lucario in Oregon) out of tourney last weekend- he'd clearly never fought a Peach, LOL.

I would put the matchup at 45-55 in Lucario's favor, if the Lucario knows the matchup really well and knows how to camp Peach. It's a slight advantage to Lucario, not huge.


EDIT: Also worth noting that thanks to Lucario's dair, Peach almost NEVER lands a usmash. Utilt works, but it doesn't kill until high %. This lets Lucario live EVEN LONGER than normal. And as he lives he gets stronger and gets crazy powerful kill moves.