Official Metaknight Discussion

[Supermodel From Paris]

"Reacting to Zamus' dash grab" is just not hard. My personal reaction time is terrible and I can spotdodge and punish it on visual reaction.

I'm not an amazing player, but I am a very frequent contributer to the ZSS boards (which is one of the most intelligent and hard-working communities here on SWF) and have invented a large portion of the technical side of ZSS' game. I discovered dash attack locking, literally wrote the guide on how to play the character, do frequent research on her frame data and am basically way too into the technical side of the game. I understand her inside and out. I'll probably never be the best player, but as far as theorycrafting her playstyle and capabilities you can't really do any better (maybe ph00tbag is as good but he's not a great player either).

ZSS is not good enough to compete with Meta Knight long-term. Every once in a while we get a good ZSS player that starts to place well in their region and kick the ***** of the local Meta Knight players and every time, the MKs figure out the matchup and start Powershielding the tip of side-b and grabbing them on reaction, and start punishing ZSS' ridiculously exploitable flaws and we're back to the 6/4ish match-up it has always been and always will be. Alternatively, Florida could get a good Falco and then Nick would probably never even get to play Seibrik.

This is a stupid discussion because ZSS is barely viable at all and isn't even a factor in a ban discussion.

 

[rathy Aro]

They're actually not inherently random, at least not more than the smashville balloon, yoshi's islands support ghosts, etc., etc.

Items have certain "spawn zones" and spawn in intervals; basic stage control means you get at least an 80% chance of having the item in your control before your opponent. Considering the amount of spawns on food on low, this should average out nicely.

Tests done on my own with various smashers showed that food on low healed roughly 100% total. When the match was even (two evenly skilled players) they each healed 40-60%. When the match was uneven (skilled player vs. lesser skilled player) one healed 70-80% and the other 20-30%. While more testing would be needed, it's pretty clear from the data we have that stage control granting you "food control" (if not item control in general) is not a myth.

Compared to randomly being selected by halberd's laser or claw, this isn't a big deal at all.

I had an idea of this already hence why items should not be banned. Mk is WITH OUT A DOUBT more unhealthy for the metagame than items are. I honestly can't think of a good reason for why we don't use them.

You didn't address all of my post and still haven't helped me at all understand why mk should be banned. All you do is counter anti-ban arguements, which is odd, because all anti-ban does is counter pro-ban arguements. Again, you have have lots of relevant facts, but no general theory.

Spoiler

personally, if mk gets banned it just means certain sheik mains will whoring around with mk.... myself included..... =(

 

[MarKO X]

lol @ that benchmark test. I'm slow as ****, I can't get less than 250.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Hmm, I always react to everything in game. I got good DI, mash out of grabs well and stuff but I got 224.5 D:. Slow as heck .

 

[Spelt]

I had an idea of this already hence why items should not be banned. Mk is WITH OUT A DOUBT more unhealthy for the metagame than items are.

So is cancer but you don't see me complaining about it.

 

[Justblaze647]

Mk is WITH OUT A DOUBT more unhealthy for the metagame than items are.

You sound SO SURE!

I honestly can't think of a good reason for why we don't use them.

omg troll alert! Everyone ignore it!

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

So is cancer but you don't see me complaining about it.

I'm honestly not 100% sure about this...

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

rathy is not a troll. Item standard play has proven that some items are not broken. Itemless play has melee bias written all over it.

Also ban MK.

 

[MarKO X]

So is cancer but you don't see me complaining about it.

cancer being more unhealthy to the metagame than items? sir, i don't think you can prove that.

 

[etecoon]

Human reaction time is what determines how good you are at this game.

there's a certain top player that thinks of marijuana as a performance enhancer, so it can't be ENTIRELY reaction time : p

 

[iRJi]

cancer being more unhealthy to the metagame than items? sir, i don't think you can prove that.

Metaknight is a cancer

 

[OverLade]

there's a certain top player that thinks of marijuana as a performance enhancer, so it can't be ENTIRELY reaction time : p

Marijuana actually helps some people focus, while other people prefer to slow down when using it.

And of course brawl isn't pure skill, a lot of it is experience and playstyle. Playing gay and knowing matchups will get you further than pure smarts any day.

Anyway that reaction test probably isn't an accurate measure especially for anyone playing this game because you're reacting to something entirely different than when you play this game. And you have to keep in mind how well you react to some things is based on how used to seeing them you are (expectation plays a part in this but not entirely). That's why I said people have "average reaction speeds" in brawl, and the difference between the best players and good players probably isn't much in seconds but within the context of the game seems huge (see melee for details).

 

[Tommy_G]

Items aren't banned because of random spawning or unfair advantages. They're banned because capsules and crates can randomly be bombs that spawn right in front of you and explode when you throw out a hitbox for spacing purposing.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Items aren't banned because of random spawning or unfair advantages. They're banned because capsules and crates can randomly be bombs that explode when you throw out a hitbox for spacing purposing.

Yes, but now they can be turned off. Including crates and capsules.

 

[Overswarm]

My best "of 5", but only using 5 isn't much of an average.

This is my reaction speed out of 20, a more reliable average. I got around 174 a lot.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Items aren't banned because of random spawning or unfair advantages. They're banned because capsules and crates can randomly be bombs that spawn right in front of you and explode when you throw out a hitbox for spacing purposing.

So turn off crates and turn off capsules.

...????

 

[Eddie G]

there's a certain top player that thinks of marijuana as a performance enhancer, so it can't be ENTIRELY reaction time : p

I think I know who that person is. xD

10topICsplayer

But yeah...reaction time is very important for most games in general.

 

[Espy Rose]

...You can get rid of capsules, crates, and moving boxes in Brawl...can't you?

EDIT: Double ninja'd

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Yep.

The only reason ISP isn't the Brawl standard is because of melee bias. And the only reason Smashballs aren't a part of ISP is because people are dumb.

 

[Overswarm]

You didn't address all of my post and still haven't helped me at all understand why mk should be banned. All you do is counter anti-ban arguements, which is odd, because all anti-ban does is counter pro-ban arguements. Again, you have have lots of relevant facts, but no general theory.

I'm not sure what you're talking about at all. You're wanting me to write a philosophical proof saying that MK should be banned for existing? There are half a dozen high placing players I know of that don't want Metaknight banned solely because Mew2King mains him and it's how Mew2king pays his bills. You can't convince those people.

The people you CAN convince are the ones that actually stop and ask "Is MK overly dominant? Does the metagame center aroudn this one character? Is he the hurdle?" and for all intents and purposes I've answered that question.

The only people left that are anti-ban are ignorant people, MK mains (and close friends), people that believe there is nothing wrong with a dominant character, and people that are overly optimistic and think that character X is FOR SURE going to counter MK this time!!!

I'm sorry, my bad. "Go even". That's the new benchmark that people get excited about. Someone going even with Metaknight.

The only reason ISP isn't the Brawl standard is because of melee bias. And the only reason Smashballs aren't a part of ISP is because people are dumb.

Smashballs were shown to be anti-competitive in all testing. They spawn towards the losing player and actually run away from a player if he's in the lead or has done a lot of damage to it... and not just run away, they'll deliberately run towards the losing player.

In addition to this, many smashballs lead to a guaranteed stock that is literally impossible to avoid. Sonic, Wario, and ROB all become invincible, as an example.

 

[etecoon]

The only people left that are anti-ban are ignorant people, MK mains (and close friends), people that believe there is nothing wrong with a dominant character, and people that are overly optimistic and think that character X is FOR SURE going to counter MK this time!!!

there's also people who play characters that benefit from the MK dominated metagame such as diddy, or people who simply hate another character that MK beats even more

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

For the record, I don't think it's so far out of the question that some character may go even. But I don't think it proves the character isn't too broken to stay legal.

 

[Spelt]

cancer being more unhealthy to the metagame than items? sir, i don't think you can prove that.

I can give you cancer so we can get data to prove this.
cancer will dominate tournaments if we just give it the chance.

 

[Espy Rose]

I'm sorry, my bad. "Go even". That's the new benchmark that people get excited about. Someone going even with Metaknight.

I honestly think that's the worst part of this entire ordeal.

 

[Tommy_G]

You could not turn off crates and capsules until a little while ago thanks to people in the Smash Workshop hacking the hell out of this game. The majority of people decided to leave it be since the meta-game has gotten so far without it.

Where were all of you people when Pikachu was (and still is) dominating Smash 64. We needed a bunch of people to follow the few people who liked to not practice and try to get Pikachu banned.........oh wait I know what happened.

Isai ***** your Pikachu with Link.

 

[Zankoku]

I don't remember cancer being a contagious disease.

TommyG: Turning off crates and capsules was possible ever since the release of Brawl.

 

[Omni]

The only people left that are pro-ban are lazy people, people who main Low/Mid Tiers/ROB, people who believe Brawl isn't "fun" with a dominant character, and people who are overly pessimistic about the Brawl metagame growing with MK in it.

To put this in retrospective, there are failures on both ends of the spectrum.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Marijuana actually helps some people focus, while other people prefer to slow down when using it.

And of course brawl isn't pure skill, a lot of it is experience and playstyle. Playing gay and knowing matchups will get you further than pure smarts any day.

Anyway that reaction test probably isn't an accurate measure especially for anyone playing this game because you're reacting to something entirely different than when you play this game. And you have to keep in mind how well you react to some things is based on how used to seeing them you are (expectation plays a part in this but not entirely). That's why I said people have "average reaction speeds" in brawl, and the difference between the best players and good players probably isn't much in seconds but within the context of the game seems huge (see melee for details).

I disagree, it's an accurate measure because with enough MU expirience, your "completely attuned" results in this should be about equal to your reaction time in game, that's one of the things MU expirience does, allows you to recognize things at quickly your opponents moves.

And if the difference in reaction time is seconds....


No seriously, I do agree with you, even one frame of difference makes a major difference, the thing is that I think that reading skills are more powerful then reaction time advantages.

 

[RDK]

OS uses Internet Explorer?

All credibility is lost.

 

[CRASHiC]

http://www.shoryuken.com/entry.php?b=596

 

[Espy Rose]

The only people left that are pro-ban are lazy people, people who main Low/Mid Tiers/ROB, people who believe Brawl isn't "fun" with a dominant character, and people who are overly pessimistic about the Brawl metagame growing with MK in it.

To put this in retrospective, there are failures on both ends of the spectrum.

Ouch.

I would've preferred that you used "or" rather than "and" in your little list, because now it just seems like I'm a lazy, Sonic maining player that thinks Brawl isn't fun with a dominant character while being pessimistic about the Brawl meta game growing with MK in it. ;-;

And only 1 1/2 of those things are true too (at least for me).

 

[Overswarm]

OS uses Internet Explorer?

All credibility is lost.

I also use Omegle and Firefox, but generally IE. Firefox is for people that don't know how to edit IE's internal settings to make a faster browser.

</it>

 

[OverLade]

No seriously, I do agree with you, even one frame of difference makes a major difference, the thing is that I think that reading skills are more powerful then reaction time advantages.

Reaction speed leads to ability to react to reads. ggs. The faster you can recognize a scenario that you recognize (recognition is helped by experience) the faster you can punish it (but that depends on your characters ability to punish). That's where the arguement ties in.

 

[Justblaze647]

The only people left that are pro-ban are lazy people, people who main Low/Mid Tiers/ROB, people who believe Brawl isn't "fun" with a dominant character, and people who are overly pessimistic about the Brawl metagame growing with MK in it.

Hit the nail on the head with this one...

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

The only people left that are pro-ban are lazy people, people who main Low/Mid Tiers/ROB, people who believe Brawl isn't "fun" with a dominant character, and people who are overly pessimistic about the Brawl metagame growing with MK in it.

To put this in retrospective, there are failures on both ends of the spectrum.

Any proof to that b/c i am pretty sure u are wrong.

 

[Zankoku]

I also use Omegle and Firefox, but generally IE. Firefox is for people that don't know how to edit IE's internal settings to make a faster browser.

</it>

...Yet you use Windows XP over 2000.

 

[Overswarm]

...Yet you use Windows XP over 2000.

I'm sorry for not updating the image on my work computer?

 

[adumbrodeus]

Reaction speed leads to ability to react to reads. ggs. The faster you can recognize a scenario that you recognize (recognition is helped by experience) the faster you can punish it (but that depends on your characters ability to punish). That's where the arguement ties in.

Of course, but that doesn't mean that superior ability to recognize opponent's patterns isn't more important overall. In general, a guy who's better at reading should beat a guy with faster reaction time, at least IMO.

I also use Omegle and Firefox, but generally IE. Firefox is for people that don't know how to edit IE's internal settings to make a faster browser.

</it>

Or are too lazy, or like open source.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

...Yet you use Windows XP over 2000.

I'm sorry for not updating the image on my work computer?

Hee hee, OS talks about his OS.

 

[Omni]

Any proof to that b/c i am pretty sure u are wrong.

The proof is in...

Overswarm didn't become severely pro-ban until he realized ROB could never compete with MK at the highest level.

Also, Google Chrome is where it's at.

Edit: Image fail? Interesting.