Official Metaknight Discussion

[OverLade]

Regardless, I'm gonna disagree with you on the frame data thing, frame data tells you what situations you can use it in (in other words, to punish what, will my opponent be able to beat it on reaction if I just do it, will my opponent be able to spotdodge this on reaction, etc), that's the reason why you can't use ZSS' grabs as a threat to pressure shielding opponents like Zelda, they spotdodge it on reaction.

Honestly, not too familiar with ZSS samus so I honestly dunno what options MK would lose by simply using tactics that basically cannot be beaten by grab or d-smash, but I'd like to find out. It's probably overcompensation though, so I don't think it represents the true state of the MU.

Actions in this game are constituted by what people are expecting, NOT what they see. People's reactions simple aren't that fast. ZSS does have a very slow grab, this game is about mixups.

For example you might see ZSS dash at you and expect a dashgrab and sidestep, but Zamus can reverse grab you if she predicts a sidestep. The amount of time you have to determine exactly what kind of approach ZSS is doing is tiny, and ZSS has the options of Dashgrab, reverse grab, dash attack, sidestep, and dash shield. If the ZSS player is mixing up their options the point is, you get grabbed when you read incorrectly, which as I just explained happens via "getting outplayed".

Anyway aside from the you can grab MK out of landing lag from or just by reading a Fair and reverse grabbing. If both players have equally fast reaction speed then the ZSS player should be able to react and grab (or Dsmash) which leads to grab.

This game isn't about "you should be able to", it's about what you're expecting. See my theory craft thread for details.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

RedHalberd, I feel like you're being too general. ZSS has options vs. MK and the match-up is pretty close (maybe), and definitely beats him in the air.

But I'm not totally convinced that a grab-based chaingrab-to-uair is enough to tip it to even. It's very situational and reads or not, she still has the worst grab in the game, perhaps. Now, if she could shield-grab you may have a point, because all she'd have to do is punish "anything" with a shield or pivot grab.

The way you describe the game is pretty disingenuous, though, and ZSS vs. Snake illustrates it perfectly; ZSS' moveset owns the **** out of Snake's for the most part, but if ZSS missed a grab she dies at 35% because he can fsmash her. That's frame data.

 

[Overswarm]

Besides, that's the same logic as in Melee where "Fox isn't broken" "Ok, lets see a Pichu beat him."

Pichu actually did fairly well against the spacies in relation to other low tiers. Super chain grab + cute walk combo!

 

[adumbrodeus]

Actions in this game are constituted by what people are expecting, NOT what they see. People's reactions simple aren't that fast. ZSS does have a very slow grab, this game is about mixups.

For example you might see ZSS dash at you and expect a dashgrab and sidestep, but Zamus can reverse grab you if she predicts a sidestep. The amount of time you have to determine exactly what kind of approach ZSS is doing is tiny, and ZSS has the options of Dashgrab, reverse grab, dash attack, sidestep, and dash shield. If the ZSS player is mixing up their options the point is, you get grabbed when you read incorrectly, which as I just explained happens via "getting outplayed".

Anyway aside from the you can grab MK out of landing lag from or just by reading a Fair and reverse grabbing. If both players have equally fast reaction speed then the ZSS player should be able to react and grab (or Dsmash) which leads to grab.

This game isn't about "you should be able to", it's about what you're expecting. See my theory craft thread for details.

No, I understand, but you CAN sidestep Zelda's and ZSS grab on reaction, you just gotta know what to look for, so you wouldn't do that.


I mean, to a degree it does depend on your personal reaction time, but at 10 frames reaction time, you can reliably wait for ZSS to start her grab and THEN sidestep if you're in shield. Of course if they expect something other then grab and react to it, that's a different story.


It's a continuum basically, which is why I agree with you to a degree but also disagree, as I said in the theorycraft thread, in general you're right, but you gotta account for the fact that human reaction time allows for certain things to simply be beaten on reaction (your opponent should NEVER try to predict a ZSS grab when they're shielding on the ground, or even on the ground), but with that assumption in mind, beyond that you're completely correct.


As far as never getting grabbed, more talking about dair camping and the like, again, I'd have to look to see what does work, and then question whether the options limit him too much, and he's better off with just using his options.

 

[OverLade]

RedHalberd, I feel like you're being too general. ZSS has options vs. MK and the match-up is pretty close (maybe), and definitely beats him in the air.

I'm not talking about the characters specifically I'm talking about reads and mix up game, which is why you can't just "play to avoid the grab". It doesn't even have to do anything with the characters movesets.

But I'm not totally convinced that a grab-based chaingrab-to-uair is enough to tip it to even. It's very situational and reads or not, she still has the worst grab in the game, perhaps. Now, if she could shield-grab you may have a point, because all she'd have to do is punish "anything" with a shield or pivot grab.

ZSS CAN shield grab if she powershields a Fair or landing Dair. Also Tommy G (who happens to live with Seibrik, both of whom I spoke to last night) believes it's tipped to even now.

The way you describe the game is pretty disingenuous, though, and ZSS vs. Snake illustrates it perfectly; ZSS' moveset owns the **** out of Snake's for the most part, but if ZSS missed a grab she dies at 35% because he can fsmash her. That's frame data.

No.....no.....and no...

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

One thing is clear

Don't nado ZSS at high percents.

 

[OverLade]

No, I understand, but you CAN sidestep Zelda's and ZSS grab on reaction, you just gotta know what to look for, so you wouldn't do that.

I mean, to a degree it does depend on your personal reaction time, but at 10 frames reaction time, you can reliably wait for ZSS to start her grab and THEN sidestep if you're in shield. Of course if they expect something other then grab and react to it, that's a different story.

People aren't machines, there's no such thing as a 10 frame reaction time.

In the scenario that ZSS runs at you, you have to make a decision when ZSS is a certain distance away from you. You have to make a decision at about the same time ZSS does. It's not like ZSS has to use the full range of her dashgrab, if she pressures you and predicts a shield she will get in close. But because of the threat of a full range dashgrab you HAVE to anticipate to some degree. I have extremely above average reactions and I'm not saying it's not possible I'm saying you can't tell the difference between when ZSS plans to run at you and dashgrab and run at you and reverse grab.

It's a continuum basically, which is why I agree with you to a degree but also disagree, as I said in the theorycraft thread, in general you're right, but you gotta account for the fact that human reaction time allows for certain things to simply be beaten on reaction (your opponent should NEVER try to predict a ZSS grab when they're shielding on the ground, or even on the ground), but with that assumption in mind, beyond that you're completely correct.

Human reaction time is what determines how good you are at this game. The better you are the more likely it is that you can sidestep on reaction but that doesn't mean ZSS has to commit to the action before you do as I explained above.

As far as never getting grabbed, more talking about dair camping and the like, again, I'd have to look to see what does work, and then question whether the options limit him too much, and he's better off with just using his options.

I've played Nick Riddle first hand and just dair camping doesn't work against him anyway so playing to avoid the grab (and successfully avoiding it) means you'll just get ***** by other stuff, plus you have to approach in the matchup anyway.

 

[Overswarm]

ZSS CAN shield grab if she powershields a Fair or landing Dair. Also Tommy G (who happens to live with Seibrik, both of whom I spoke to last night) believes it's tipped to even now.

I cannot fathom how idiotic it is to talk about how people shouldn't count frames because of the limits of human reaction time and then say something is possible by powershielding a 6 frame and 4 frame hitbox coming out.

Also:

People aren't machines, there's no such thing as a 10 frame reaction time.

Not only does that make you look hypocritical, silly, and coming into a discussion with a pre-determined mindset that allows you to change your beliefs based on what will help you.... a 10 frame reaction time is not unheard of. Seriously, it isn't.

I'd also like to say that MK vs. Yoshi is now even because he can grab release MK, thus making him a perfect counter on stages like castle siege! Also Pikachu has a grab from 0 to near 60%, so that's even too. ZSS can grab release and kill MK at 138%, so now it's even matchup even though Snake can kill MK with a u-tilt at 100%.

*facepalm*

The next time someone plays a strange character that hardly anyone else plays, plays frequently with a MK main, and does well against a few MKs... save yourself the trouble and don't say it's even. It just makes you look foolish to anyone who counts the number of times it has been said.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

OS to be fair, ZSS mains and MK mains both have been saying the matchup is really close for a while now. The sentiment isn't new.

 

[Zankoku]

Actually, I can see argument for Pikachu vs MK being pretty close to even.

 

[Tommy_G]

Not taking a side, but average reaction speed is between approximately 200 and 250 milliseconds which are 12 and 15 frames respectively; however, there are plenty of instances where reaction speed is faster and slower than 200 to 250 milliseconds.

I didn't say it tips the matchup to even. I said it tips the matchup in ZSS's favor.

Pikachu vs MK should be pretty close to even imo. MK outspaces Pikachu but Pikachu has a chaingrab to make up for lost % due to spacing.

 

[OverLade]

I cannot fathom how idiotic it is to talk about how people shouldn't count frames because of the limits of human reaction time and then say something is possible by powershielding a 6 frame and 4 frame hitbox coming out.

Also:



Not only does that make you look hypocritical, silly, and coming into a discussion with a pre-determined mindset that allows you to change your beliefs based on what will help you.... a 10 frame reaction time is not unheard of. Seriously, it isn't.

I'd also like to say that MK vs. Yoshi is now even because he can grab release MK, thus making him a perfect counter on stages like castle siege! Also Pikachu has a grab from 0 to near 60%, so that's even too. ZSS can grab release and kill MK at 138%, so now it's even matchup even though Snake can kill MK with a u-tilt at 100%.

*facepalm*

The next time someone plays a strange character that hardly anyone else plays, plays frequently with a MK main, and does well against a few MKs... save yourself the trouble and don't say it's even. It just makes you look foolish to anyone who counts the number of times it has been said.

Whoops, when I said "there's no such thing as a 10 frame reaction time" I meant "mechanically". Not that nobody reacts that fast. My bad. I believe some people can react that fast but I mean saying "just because this is slower than 10 frames means you can dodge it every time" isn't applicable to actual games. People have average reaction speeds, but he was making it sound like it was applicable to "every scenario" or w/e.

That's going to be affected by what you're expecting and what you were already planning during the time you were getting dashgrabbed. I agree with you for the most part and some of my statements (re-read) were badly stated (though I think you misinterpretting my reaction time thing skewed your take on my arguement).

 

[Justblaze647]

Actually, I can see argument for Anther vs MK being pretty close to even.

Fix'd

Edit: omg stfu 10 char

 

[solecalibur]

I didn't say it tips the matchup to even. I said it tips the matchup in ZSS's favor.

I doubt this greatly MK still has a ton of tools
this new AT is very good but very situational and there is stupid hype for anything learned against MK (Why is that again?)

 

[Zankoku]

Fix'd

Edit: omg stfu 10 char

Anther vs M2K is close to even. Anther vs MK is solidly in Anther's favor. :V

 

[iRJi]

Actually, I can see argument for Pikachu vs MK being pretty close to even.

Eh... Not really...

Pikachu's limited range really makes this more lol then people give it credit for. He does have a CG to 45, but after that is all done and done it gets pretty ugly lol.

 

[solecalibur]

Anther vs M2K is close to even. Anther vs MK is solidly in Anther's favor. :V

When m2k entered MI he didnt have any Pika exp (He was mentioning it on the way there)

For the record -.-

 

[Flayl]

Anther vs M2K is close to even. Anther vs MK is solidly in Anther's favor. :V

What about Anther VS Judge?

 

[Zankoku]

That matchup's been relatively even lately, too, I think.

 

[iRJi]

Gah. Wish I had access to the backroom. I wanna know how the MK plan is going back there XD

 

[ADHD]

Anokoku pikachu loses to up b OOS.

 

[adumbrodeus]

People aren't machines, there's no such thing as a 10 frame reaction time.

MY reaction time is 10 frames (well slightly less, but gets rounded up). When I know what to look for I can routinely sidestep moves on reaction that have that much start-up (which is a matter of match-up knowledge). I doubt pretty much anyone on smashboards has a 16 frame reaction time, the average human reaction time is 12, and most gamers seem to have around 10 (possibly because it improves reaction time in general, or that these types of games attract people with faster then average reaction time).


Check here to find yours: http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/index.php, most likely when you attune yourself to the system (which is equivalent to looking for that one specific thing such as ZSS' grab start-up) you'll have somewhere equivalent to a sixth of a second, and I doubt there are many smashers that are in the 265+ category.

In the scenario that ZSS runs at you, you have to make a decision when ZSS is a certain distance away from you. You have to make a decision at about the same time ZSS does. It's not like ZSS has to use the full range of her dashgrab, if she pressures you and predicts a shield she will get in close. But because of the threat of a full range dashgrab you HAVE to anticipate to some degree. I have extremely above average reactions and I'm not saying it's not possible I'm saying you can't tell the difference between when ZSS plans to run at you and dashgrab and run at you and reverse grab.

I never have to anticipate it, except as a potential counter to something else I do, every time somebody tried to grab me with it, unless I predicted something else, spotdodge->punish.

Human reaction time is what determines how good you are at this game. The better you are the more likely it is that you can sidestep on reaction but that doesn't mean ZSS has to commit to the action before you do as I explained above.

Improved reaction time does make you better, but reading is much more important, and again, that's fair, but grab is more situation, because if you ever commit before your opponent does, getting punished badly. That is a component to how the MU must get analyzed.

I've played Nick Riddle first hand and just dair camping doesn't work against him anyway so playing to avoid the grab (and successfully avoiding it) means you'll just get ***** by other stuff, plus you have to approach in the matchup anyway.

Fair enough, what requires you to have to approach?

 

[Turbo Ether]

I've always been skeptical of this matchup. Yeah, Pikachu has good mobility, the chaingrab and thunderjolt, but his standard moveset is balls. Never understood by people considered this character top 10.

 

[Chuee]

Quick Attack is ****ing crazy.

 

[ADHD]

Snake is going to be so dumb when people figure out how to do ftilts out of dashes.

 

[Overswarm]

Snake is going to be so dumb when people figure out how to do ftilts out of dashes.

His isn't actually that great. The range does increase a little bit, but his initial dash is so bad that is doesn't help him nearly as much as you'd think it would.

 

[Nanaki]

Snake is going to be so dumb when people figure out how to do ftilts out of dashes.

And Utilts.

That reaction time test was nifty, Adumbrodeus. Mine averaged around 11 frames (185 ms) on my 3 tries.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Mine averages at about 161.

 

[Espy Rose]

His isn't actually that great. The range does increase a little bit, but his initial dash is so bad that is doesn't help him nearly as much as you'd think it would.

I'd think he'd slide far, considering that his DACUS has him firing across the stage almost as far as Sonic.

 

[OverLade]

MY reaction time is 10 frames

I stopped reading here. You should try conducting a survey of smashboards and see if there's any correlation between this reaction test and between players actual skill levels. Reacting to a red to green screen isn't the same thing as the speed of recongition of varying scenarios.

Anyway there's no point in trying to argue this with you. If you say you can react to Zamus' dash grab, I'll be like Seibrik and say "play nick riddle and see how easy it is".

 

[ch33s3]

Snake is going to be so dumb when people figure out how to do ftilts out of dashes.

I'd worry more about the plethora of infinites MK will have.

 

[CRASHiC]

Agreed but the problem with brawl is that most of the time when it sucks it's not even fun. 0-deathing someone in TvC is fun. Getting timed out in brawl isn't.

I disagree. Timing out is more exciting to me than a 0 to death combo because in that combo you can't do anything. Yeah you can Burst in TvC but in most games you can't.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

I'd think he'd slide far, considering that his DACUS has him firing across the stage almost as far as Sonic.

are you correcting someone whos seen it lol?

 

[Espy Rose]

are you correcting someone whos seen it lol?

No, I'm just speaking my mind. It was more or less just a wondering, spontaneous thought. It's how I post.

Spoiler

Why are people starting to provoke me for feeble little things? Is it a fad now?

OS, put that vid up soon!

 

[Omni]

When m2k entered MI he didnt have any Pika exp (He was mentioning it on the way there)

For the record -.-

This is interesting.

I think this is what makes fighting games interesting. If someone can take a specific character to a certain level that is not easily attainable this in itself is a benefit. There won't be a lot of Anther's because it's 10x harder to have a competent Pikachu as opposed to a competent MK.

The lack of match-up knowledge factor should in some way play a part into a character's strength. Basically, the fact that Pikachu is not widely used will give Pikachu mains an advantage against a large majority of players.

Is Anther vs. Judge even or does one of the two normally beat the other?

Espy, your signature makes me extremely happy.

 

[Overswarm]

I think this is what makes fighting games interesting. If someone can take a specific character to a certain level that is not easily attainable this in itself is a benefit. There won't be a lot of Anther's because it's 10x harder to have a competent Pikachu as opposed to a competent MK.

The lack of match-up knowledge factor should in some way play a part into a character's strength. Basically, the fact that Pikachu is not widely used will give Pikachu mains an advantage against a large majority of players.

Hence, why you look at statistical trends and not "this one guy". If your counter to Metaknight is "pick a really weird character no one else plays and get really, really good with them so you can take MK by surprise", you're reaching just a bit too far.

 

[Remzi]

just listened to the podcast, good stuff to everyone involved, i enjoyed it.

 

[Omni]

Hence, why you look at statistical trends and not "this one guy". If your counter to Metaknight is "pick a really weird character no one else plays and get really, really good with them so you can take MK by surprise", you're reaching just a bit too far.

Nah, I don't think so.

In SF4, two oddball characters are El Fuerte and Gen. They are very uncommon simply due to how much effort it takes to master them. Regardless, the small select players that take the time to master the character have free passes against a large majority of players including players who use top tier characters.

In Japan, the best players had a Q&A session about the best El Fuerte (TKD). The translation had players like Daigo, Momochi, Mago, Kindevu, and other players who quoted that TKD's El Fuerte is their scariest match-up due to the ambiguity of the character itself.

Character's not having any representation is a 2-edged sword. On one end, you'll have an advantage because players will not accustomed to your character nor the limits that they can be taken, too. The disadvantage is that the metagame for that character will move at a much slower pace compared to the more popular characters.

It's not uncommon for "really weird character" being played very well to take top spots in tournaments and rankings.

 

[Nefarious B]

The ZSS uair out of a grab is nice but I don't understand how it could make the matchup even, let alone her advantage. He can beat her in ways that leave very little risk of getting grabbed.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I stopped reading here. You should try conducting a survey of smashboards and see if there's any correlation between this reaction test and between players actual skill levels. Reacting to a red to green screen isn't the same thing as the speed of recongition of varying scenarios.

Anyway there's no point in trying to argue this with you. If you say you can react to Zamus' dash grab, I'll be like Seibrik and say "play nick riddle and see how easy it is".

There likely is some correlation, but my main point is the mean, most people have a 12 frame reaction time, and from circumstantial evidence it seems that most smashers have reaction times that are faster then that (around 10). I'm not saying it positive on this, but I've seen only a few people have over twelve frames, and a reasonable number who said they have under 10.


But again, what it comes down to is getting attuned to the opening frames of the grab, so you can notice it ASAP and react, granted there's a large margin of error so it's not so bad, but it's crucial with Zelda because her grab is at that boarder (keep in mind if you know precisely what to look for, you WILL react to it faster, and that's a good part of knowing the MU, getting attuned to that), and as you learn the MU it does become as simple as recognizing the difference between a red light and a green light.


There's a nice chapter about deception as to why not expecting something makes you react slower in Sirlin's book, the but solution is generally speaking, to expect it anyway.