Official Metaknight Discussion

[Flayl]

I'm really not looking for theorycraft right now.

With theorycraft I could say that whoever has the projectile can take the opportunity to hog the ledge or simply time the drop so the projectile hits the planker right before he regrabs the ledge.

 

[etecoon]

Most people don't feel that way. In fact, anyone who has ever banned items or the majority of stages out there doesn't feel that way. Or that bans D3 infinites or the like (pick a different character, it isn't broken).

most people feel like items should be banned because they are a random element, it's not really a broken or not broken thing

DDD's CG's are irrelevant because he can't infinite any characters that are good anyway

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

You know banning MK would rip the community apart right? Not "bring it together and get more players."

And not banning him would lead to a slow bleed of non-MKs.

This is no less objective than your statement. You have a slew of MKs who would leave if MK got banned possibly; I have a slew of non-MKs who are fed up with his ***.

 

[etecoon]

it definitely is a lose-lose situation as far as attendance goes, a lot of pro ban people are likely to quit the longer MK goes unbanned. if he is banned, a large number of current MK mains will quit, and potentially some people that main characters that benefit from MK too(snake and diddy especially).

I think that after you get past the initial wave of MK's that quit the game banning him does increase the longevity of brawl though. not because it will actually be a better game, but because brawl is a fundamentally mediocre/average game, and people are getting sick of it. banning meta knight makes it new again, it gives it novelty.

 

[gallax]

if mk does get banned in fl im mad certain that there will be more ddd's here. sepcially since we have co 18 who has already taught us how to use ddd properly.

 

[OverLade]

This game ****ing sucks anyway. People are quitting more and more every month, and whether it's becasue of MK remains to be seen. But I think the community will EVENTUALLY ban MK in an attempt to slow down the death of this game (who knows, mabye it'll work?). But point is people are getting fed up, whether it's MK or brawl. That's why I support the ban because I know for a fact that more people will start playing compared to people who quit...

 

[CRASHiC]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9528936&postcount=96

get ready for Metaknight to dash-downtilt

 

[Gnes]

I'm really not looking for theorycraft right now.

With theorycraft I could say that whoever has the projectile can take the opportunity to hog the ledge or simply time the drop so the projectile hits the planker right before he regrabs the ledge.

It doesnt work...for mk he could just dodge the projectile and use the rest of his jumps/etc. to make it back to the ledge fine.

 

[rathy Aro]

Most people don't feel that way. In fact, anyone who has ever banned items or the majority of stages out there doesn't feel that way. Or that bans D3 infinites or the like (pick a different character, it isn't broken).

If you don't put food on low at the very least, you can't say you don't want to ban things unless they're broken.



I enjoy the amount of times someone asks me a question, they answer, and then they say "Well what I was TRYING to say" when I didn't answer in a way that trapped me in the way they expected. Reminds me of Umbreon from the original debate ^_^

The ban on items is unwarranted and there is no ban on D3's infinites because they don't warrant a ban either. I honestly think discussion about unbanning items would prove more fruitful than discussing banning mk, because in that case we would actually be adding options and depth to the game, which should have never been removed in the first place (well in melee it made sense to ban them but not brawl).

Also what people are trying to ban when the ban d3's infinites is "gayness," which no one has yet to define. I've spoken to people and they always say its just stupid or its just gay or its just unfair. If someone could define this gayness and why its bad then maybe I could understand pro-ban a little better.

Ignore this.

For a second I thought Ken actually posted in this thread. I would have laughed so hard. XD He probably would have said, 'You guys are idiots, I would have already solved the mk problem with my marth."

 

[Overswarm]

most people feel like items should be banned because they are a random element, it's not really a broken or not broken thing

They're actually not inherently random, at least not more than the smashville balloon, yoshi's islands support ghosts, etc., etc.

Items have certain "spawn zones" and spawn in intervals; basic stage control means you get at least an 80% chance of having the item in your control before your opponent. Considering the amount of spawns on food on low, this should average out nicely.

Tests done on my own with various smashers showed that food on low healed roughly 100% total. When the match was even (two evenly skilled players) they each healed 40-60%. When the match was uneven (skilled player vs. lesser skilled player) one healed 70-80% and the other 20-30%. While more testing would be needed, it's pretty clear from the data we have that stage control granting you "food control" (if not item control in general) is not a myth.

Compared to randomly being selected by halberd's laser or claw, this isn't a big deal at all.

 

[Overswarm]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9528936&postcount=96

get ready for Metaknight to dash-downtilt

Hush. Not til I'm ready.

 

[etecoon]

if you want to trick more MK's into thinking that running everywhere is a good idea that's fine, *****es don't know how broken his walking is...

 

[Trillest]

So quick question the the sbr guys Is any dicussion in place or anything on the horizen in concerns to mk ?

Or are we all destined to regretfully youtube clips of mk dittos and respect the 1 or 2 players out of the top ten at tourneys who doesnt resort to him ?

 

[Tommy_G]

ZSS vs MK is in ZSS's favor....

Get at me.

 

[Espy Rose]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9528936&postcount=96

get ready for Metaknight to dash-downtilt

This is incredibly interesting.
How come it hasn't been spread out yet?

 

[OverLade]

ZSS vs MK is in ZSS's favor....

Get at me.

Mabye on FD. *bans FD*

You still have PS1 but MK still has CP advantage anyway....

 

[Overswarm]

This is incredibly interesting.
How come it hasn't been spread out yet?

I haven't finished my video.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

LOL ZSS vs MK is not in ZSS' favor. It is even AT BEST. Like ADHD Nick riddle is very good at beating MK players because his regular training partner is one of the best MKs in the country. That doesn't mean the MK match-up is even close to even.

Yeah I know about grab-release chain to GR->uair but ZSS has the worst grab in the game and MK is capable of avoiding grabs by characters with much better grabs, and dsmash is a terrible move. Seibrik, stop getting hit by terrible moves.

You guys know ZSS' grab is 17 frames dashing, standing, and pivoting and that it has 40-some odd frames of whiff lag? You know that there's a portion of the whip that lands in the z-axis which means it randomly misses opponents frequently and can't even hit a standing ivysaur (lol)? Do you know that dsmash has twenty frames of startup? If an MK gets hit by this chain knowing full and well that it exists he was outplayed.

ALSO:

Item spawns are not really random and Smashballs spawn only in certain conditions or on certain time-based intervals. In any case, the better player will control item spawns on the field.

 

[TLMSheikant]

I haven't finished my video.

Will it revolutionize the brawl METAgame?

 

[MetalMusicMan]

ZSS has the worst grab in the game

This is way exaggerated, just sayin'. It's definitely not a great grab though, no.

 

[Tommy_G]

LOL ZSS vs MK is not in ZSS' favor. It is even AT BEST. Like ADHD Nick riddle is very good at beating MK players because his regular training partner is one of the best MKs in the country. That doesn't mean the MK match-up is even close to even.

Yeah I know about grab-release chain to GR->uair but ZSS has the worst grab in the game and MK is capable of avoiding grabs by characters with much better grabs, and dsmash is a terrible move. Seibrik, stop getting hit by terrible moves.

You guys know ZSS' grab is 17 frames dashing, standing, and pivoting and that it has 40-some odd frames of whiff lag? You know that there's a portion of the whip that lands in the z-axis which means it randomly misses opponents frequently and can't even hit a standing ivysaur (lol)? Do you know that dsmash has twenty frames of startup? If an MK gets hit by this chain knowing full and well that it exists he was outplayed.

ALSO:

Item spawns are not really random and Smashballs spawn only in certain conditions or on certain time-based intervals. In any case, the better player will control item spawns on the field.

Stop not using terrible moves that work....lol XD

ALSO:
*waits for Overswarm to create a chart of the probability an item has to spawn in a given location.*

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

This is way exaggerated, just sayin'. It's definitely not a great grab though, no.

LOL. Whose grab is worse? She can't even shield grab, I'm pretty sure even Samus and the Links can do that.


Hell, can't even YOSHI shield grab?

 

[adumbrodeus]

This game ****ing sucks anyway. People are quitting more and more every month, and whether it's becasue of MK remains to be seen. But I think the community will EVENTUALLY ban MK in an attempt to slow down the death of this game (who knows, mabye it'll work?). But point is people are getting fed up, whether it's MK or brawl. That's why I support the ban because I know for a fact that more people will start playing compared to people who quit...

If it sucks... why are you playing it?

 

[OverLade]

If it sucks... why are you playing it?

Because I'm one of the best players in my region and it's easy money. Duh.

edit: Oh and it sucking doesn't mean it isn't fun sometimes, it just means it sucks.

And concerning the frame data about ZSS's grabs, nobody cares. This game is about reads, not frame data. Getting grabbed or Dsmashed (which leads into a guaranteed grab) even as MK isn't highly unlikely, and playing solely to avoid it gives ZSS less to worry about. People react based on what they're expecting and you can't play a ground game conditioning yourself ONLY to look for grabs because then you'll get hit by other stuff.

The matchup isn't even, but I've played Nick Riddle (I might add that he 3-1'd my MK, but I 3-1'd him with Snake, so I'd say we're about even in skill, but the matchup knowledge made the difference vs my MK, where imo Snake outright beats ZSS) and lemme just say good luck not getting grabbed, not that it matters because he had no trouble killing me by other means anyway...

 

[Espy Rose]

If it sucks... why are you playing it?

It really just takes a simple keystroke to answer that:

$

EDIT: ninja'd

 

[Chuee]

Hell, can't even YOSHI shield grab?

He can't immediately grab OoS.

 

[Tommy_G]

edit: Oh and it sucking doesn't mean it isn't fun sometimes, it just means it sucks.

News flash: All fighting games at a high level of competitive play suck.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

So we all agree then: ZSS loses to MK. Right?

 

[Tommy_G]

So we all agree then: ZSS loses to MK. Right?

Wrong. Lesser player loses to better player, not characters.

 

[etecoon]

MK probably beats ZSS but given that a potentially matchup changing discovery was just made, I don't see how you can really say anything concrete on that already

even if ZSS did have a slight advantage vs MK though I don't think that changes MK's overall status or his ban worthiness

 

[TLMSheikant]

Wrong. Lesser player loses to better player, not characters.

Wrong. DK loses because of the player not because it was a DDD.

...u do know how ridiculous your post sounds right?

 

[OverLade]

News flash: All fighting games at a high level of competitive play suck.

Agreed but the problem with brawl is that most of the time when it sucks it's not even fun. 0-deathing someone in TvC is fun. Getting timed out in brawl isn't.

Anyway I'm not complaining and it's not like I plan on quitting brawl until it's dead.

BTW I uploaded the ZSS video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3QPcEPqJ7o

 

[Tommy_G]

Yeah it does. MK would then have a legitimate counter. I don't play MK or care about him more than other characters when I play against him, but if the community still wants to ban him after he has a counter, I'm quitting the game. There is no reason to ban a character with a counter.

TLM, Let me put a DDD that no one knows of and is just entering into the community vs someone like Cable or Ripple and see what happens.

Besides, that's the same logic as in Melee where "Fox isn't broken" "Ok, lets see a Pichu beat him."

 

[etecoon]

Yeah it does. MK would then have a legitimate counter. I don't play MK or care about him more than other characters when I play against him, but if the community still wants to ban him after he has a counter, I'm quitting the game. There is no reason to ban a character with a counter.

A slightly disadvantaged matchup =/= counter. If she solidly won it'd change things, but I highly, highly doubt that, I doubt it will even be an even matchup.

 

[Ganonsburg]

LOL. Whose grab is worse? She can't even shield grab, I'm pretty sure even Samus and the Links can do that.


Hell, can't even YOSHI shield grab?

Ganon's grab sucks. Just stand in front of him. Unless you're touching him (why are you doing that to begin with?), he can't grab you. Pretty gay. T-Rex arms FTL.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I'm not super-impressed with the grab-release->uair. If you land a dsmash at 90, though, they lose. That's something.

 

[adumbrodeus]

It really just takes a simple keystroke to answer that:

$

EDIT: ninja'd

Because I'm one of the best players in my region and it's easy money. Duh.

edit: Oh and it sucking doesn't mean it isn't fun sometimes, it just means it sucks.

And concerning the frame data about ZSS's grabs, nobody cares. This game is about reads, not frame data. Getting grabbed or Dsmashed (which leads into
a guaranteed grab) even as MK isn't highly unlikely, and playing solely to avoid it gives ZSS less to worry about. People react based on what they're expecting and you can't play a ground game conditioning yourself ONLY to look for grabs because then you'll get hit by other stuff.

The matchup isn't even, but I've played Nick Riddle (I might add that he 3-1'd my MK, but I 3-1'd him with Snake, so I'd say we're about even in skill, but the matchup knowledge made the difference vs my MK, where imo Snake outright beats ZSS) and lemme just say good luck not getting grabbed, not that it matters because he had no trouble killing me by other means anyway...

What I meant was that if you think this game is crap but are making money from it, you could switch to another game that you enjoy and quickly start making money from that instead. But since you enjoy it even though you think it's crap, I guess that's fair.



Regardless, I'm gonna disagree with you on the frame data thing, frame data tells you what situations you can use it in (in other words, to punish what, will my opponent be able to beat it on reaction if I just do it, will my opponent be able to spotdodge this on reaction, etc), that's the reason why you can't use ZSS' grabs as a threat to pressure shielding opponents like Zelda, they spotdodge it on reaction.


Of course from the reading prospective it defines how large of a read you have to make in order for the move to work (remember the "mindgames potential thread" I linked you to? Well longer frame data means generally a lower margin of error and fewer options are beaten by it).


That said it does still function as a threat and people CAN overcompensate for it, and the fact that certain moves automatically lead to a grab as punishment is a major factor, but from that prospective we gotta question how much MK loses by just dropping the stuff that risks d-smash and grab.


Honestly, not too familiar with ZSS samus so I honestly dunno what options MK would lose by simply using tactics that basically cannot be beaten by grab or d-smash, but I'd like to find out. It's probably overcompensation though, so I don't think it represents the true state of the MU.

 

[iRJi]

Agreed but the problem with brawl is that most of the time when it sucks it's not even fun. 0-deathing someone in TvC is fun. Getting timed out in brawl isn't.

Anyway I'm not complaining and it's not like I plan on quitting brawl until it's dead.

BTW I uploaded the ZSS video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3QPcEPqJ7o

The only problem with this is that the MK isn't trying to react on the most possible frame. You actually still don't know if MK can even get out of it or not.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Wrong. DK loses because of the player not because it was a DDD.

...u do know how ridiculous your post sounds right?

Very few MUs cannot be overcome with enough of a skill difference (in fact I'd honestly say that no MU cannot be overcome with enough of a skill difference even with technical perfection), and I think that's what MU ratios really measure, required skill differences.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

The only problem with this is that the MK isn't trying to react on the most possible frame. You actually still don't know if MK can even get out of it or not.

It's legit, uair is 4 frames, jumping is... what? 5? I can't remember. Anyway, dash grab is something like 20 frames to grab and that's guaranteed out of a release with ZSS too. So yeah, the uair is guaranteed.