Official Metaknight Discussion

[CRASHiC]

Chrome is where its at. But what about those who CAN beat Metaknight, but who still want him banned? As in C018, Seibrik (last time I checked, maybe he changed his mind), and Fiction (who may have quit because of Metaknight, a rumor but I haven't seen him at all lately).

 

[Omni]

Generally speaking, the rule is the people who cry the loudest are the ones who main characters who get butthurt by MK the most.

Edit: Crashic, those guys are rare (altho DDD gets destroyed by MK). Also, interesting because Seibrik actually MAINS MK thus putting him on both sides of the spectrum. WEIRD!

 

[etecoon]

does fiction really count? he flip flopped like 20 times on whether or not MK should be banned, I don't even remember where he ended up on the issue before he disappeared

 

[Anther]

I also use Omegle and Firefox, but generally IE. Firefox is for people that don't know how to edit IE's internal settings to make a faster browser.

</it>

Software defaults ftw. Plus firefox = 2000x prettier.
*Swoon*

 

[Omni]

Look at Anther megauploading all that porn.

My boy.

 

[Espy Rose]

Generally speaking, the rule is the people who cry the loudest are the ones who main characters who get butthurt by MK the most.

Sonic would actually do WORSE if Meta Knight were banned. His harder match ups (Falco, Luigi, Peach, Olimar, blah blah blah) are kept in check by MK.

Though not completely, mind you...

Software defaults ftw. Plus firefox = 2000x prettier.
*Swoon*

lol @ Anther downloading porn.

 

[Praxis]

I'm not impressed with Chrome. No extensions, buggy at times, doesn't seem faster than Safari (both of which are WebKit), has issues with a lot of bank sites (much like Safari does)...

FireFox FTW. But Chrome is decent.

Chrome is where its at. But what about those who CAN beat Metaknight, but who still want him banned? As in C018, Seibrik (last time I checked, maybe he changed his mind), and Fiction (who may have quit because of Metaknight, a rumor but I haven't seen him at all lately).

Fiction quit for Melee, partially (primarily?) due to Metaknight.

Seibrik mains Metaknight now.

 

[Overswarm]

Overswarm didn't become severely pro-ban until he realized ROB could never compete with MK at the highest level.

I became severely pro-ban after I started having to work 10x as hard with ROB vs. MK, reinvented the entire ROB playstyle for that one matchup using every top ROB main in the country to help me, then played every character under the sun looking for a secondary trying to find who did best and still to this day look for a secondary that actually works.... and there is no evidence yet that there is one. Hell, there isn't even SLIGHT evidence.

To put it in perspective how hard I worked at the ROB vs. MK matchup:

I lost to one MK, and one MK only, with consistency. That was DSF, and we played several games where he was able to easily beat my ROB despite us going back and forth ROB vs. Snake (both our mains at the time).

With no experience with MK, I picked up MK and was able to go toe-to-toe with DSF at the tournament in MK dittos.

I stopped practicing, picked up MK, and lived off smash.... all while trying to get him banned.

People said "oh you just want him banned because you main ROB", and then I mained MK. Then they said "You can't even win tournaments like you were with ROB", and then I did.

I want MK banned because he's bad.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I love Chrome. Best browser.

 

[Justblaze647]

I want MK banned because he's bad.

Quoted for undeniable logic

Spoiler

not sarcasm

 

[Anther]

Sonic would actually do WORSE if Meta Knight were banned. His harder match ups (Falco, Luigi, Peach, Olimar, blah blah blah) are kept in check by MK.

Though not completely, mind you...



lol @ Anther downloading porn.

Sometimes you gotta download porn. x;.. at 4 in the afternoon. XD
I'm actually trying to find software to work with this capture card.....

 

[Zankoku]

Anther, get @ me on AIM and I'll tell you how to use VirtualDub :x

 

[Omni]

I became severely pro-ban after I started having to work 10x as hard with ROB vs. MK, reinvented the entire ROB playstyle for that one matchup using every top ROB main in the country to help me, then played every character under the sun looking for a secondary trying to find who did best and still to this day look for a secondary that actually works.... and there is no evidence yet that there is one. Hell, there isn't even SLIGHT evidence.

To put it in perspective how hard I worked at the ROB vs. MK matchup:

I lost to one MK, and one MK only, with consistency. That was DSF, and we played several games where he was able to easily beat my ROB despite us going back and forth ROB vs. Snake (both our mains at the time).

With no experience with MK, I picked up MK and was able to go toe-to-toe with DSF at the tournament in MK dittos.

I stopped practicing, picked up MK, and lived off smash.... all while trying to get him banned.

People said "oh you just want him banned because you main ROB", and then I mained MK. Then they said "You can't even win tournaments like you were with ROB", and then I did.

I want MK banned because he's bad.

so what you're saying is:

1.) you put a lot of effort into ROB and it didnt pay off as much as u wanted
2.) you got beat my DSF's MK who didnt put nearly as much effort as you did
3.) you became a traitor to the rob community and switched to MK because it was easier
4.) u mad

i mean, sounds like the "if u cant beat him, ban him" theology you got going on over there

 

[Espy Rose]

Anther, get @ me on AIM and I'll tell you how to use VirtualDub :x

I need to learn how to use VDub!!
I have trouble with the software. ;-;-;

 

[etecoon]

internet explorer overcentralizes the metagame, ban microsoft

 

[Anther]

Virtualdub 101 classtime!

I didn't like MK for a moment, when I'd stopped playing the game for a few months and nothing worked... then the matchup got easy for me again and I, being the fickle drone that I am... went anti-ban again.
Things can change within a week or so though...

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Originally Posted by Overswarm View Post
I became severely pro-ban after I started having to work 10x as hard with ROB vs. MK, reinvented the entire ROB playstyle for that one matchup using every top ROB main in the country to help me, then played every character under the sun looking for a secondary trying to find who did best and still to this day look for a secondary that actually works.... and there is no evidence yet that there is one. Hell, there isn't even SLIGHT evidence.

To put it in perspective how hard I worked at the ROB vs. MK matchup:

I lost to one MK, and one MK only, with consistency. That was DSF, and we played several games where he was able to easily beat my ROB despite us going back and forth ROB vs. Snake (both our mains at the time).

With no experience with MK, I picked up MK and was able to go toe-to-toe with DSF at the tournament in MK dittos.

I stopped practicing, picked up MK, and lived off smash.... all while trying to get him banned.

People said "oh you just want him banned because you main ROB", and then I mained MK. Then they said "You can't even win tournaments like you were with ROB", and then I did.

I want MK banned because he's bad.

so what you're saying is:

1.) you put a lot of effort into ROB and it didnt pay off as much as u wanted
2.) you got beat my DSF's MK who didnt put nearly as much effort as you did
3.) you became a traitor to the rob community and switched to MK because it was easier
4.) u mad

i mean, sounds like the "if u cant beat him, ban him" theology you got going on over there

what i read is: the only way i found of beating MK is becoming a MK which if true (which has been said and shown to be the feeling of many people) MK will over-centralize the game which at least imo is ban worthy

 

[MarKO X]

I also use Omegle and Firefox, but generally IE. Firefox is for people that don't know how to edit IE's internal settings to make a faster browser.

</it>

Isn't editting IE's settings to make it fast just as bad as editting rules to make MK not broken?

 

[Espy Rose]

Isn't editting IE's settings to make it fast just as bad as editting rules to make MK not broken?

Are you trying to say that IE is as good as MK?

 

[etecoon]

Isn't editting IE's settings to make it fast just as bad as editting rules to make MK not broken?

surgical changes create unintended consequences, clearly microsoft is a problem and just needs to be banned.

 

[CR4SH]

I think it would be quite beneficial to the tournament scene if metaknight was banned.

 

[MarKO X]

Are you trying to say that IE is as good as MK?

I have no idea. I was just using the Espy method of posting.

 

[Overswarm]

so what you're saying is:

1.) you put a lot of effort into ROB and it didnt pay off as much as u wanted
2.) you got beat my DSF's MK who didnt put nearly as much effort as you did
3.) you became a traitor to the rob community and switched to MK because it was easier
4.) u mad

Reading comprehension isn't everyone's strong point, so I'll break it down for you:

I was without a doubt one of the top 2 ROBs in the country; the only possible competition I had was HugS on the west coast. I was one of the biggest anti-ban supporters and supported efforts to simply change your gameplay or pick up a secondary.

To further ROB's metagame, I decided on using data, not opinion, to discover who "went even" or "beat" ROB. I had ROB mains post who they lost to on a consistent basis.

After removing the "lesser" ROBs who had just picked him up and were losing to random people by only using people who made top 8, we found that Dedede, MK, Marth, and G&W all had higher than average numbers in the "win" category. Further research found that we were simply playing a lot of Marths, and that Marth lost as much as he won; a pretty clear "even matchup".

D3, MK, and G&W were all much different and they really were beating us.

I then worked really hard to learn the D3 matchup, having been countered by Bloodhawk at a recent tournament. He two stocked me on his CP with Dedede simply by using the chain grab. After some intense study of the character, I fought him a week later and two stocked him. I wrote down the changes in my gameplay with the other top ROBs and ROB mains emulated us.... and D3's wins went down. Changes to the matchup like when to use kill moves, what moves never to use, where to stand on the stage, how to edgeguard, etc., etc., all made the difference. G&W had a similar thing happen, and problems like his bair become boons; we started DIing through it and back-airing him out of his bair and doing simple walk-away f-tilts to out-space him. Approaching with lasers to bait buckets gave us free f-smashes for KOs, and fully charged gyros were used to edgeguard (they forced G&W to up+b earlier than normal, meaning he could be naired from below when recovering).

Metaknight, despite having the most attention, wouldn't go down. While I was still beating the MKs around me, I was doing so with gimps, camping the ledge, and d-tilt locking. Not reliable strategies, as you can't rely on hard to setup infinites and gimps, and camping the ledge only worked against bad players.

I then created the first "character specific back room" for ROB mains where we reinvented the character's playstyle to attempt to make him as efficient as possible. We set percentages where we should attempt to combo, percentages where we should camp with projectiles, and percentages where we should attempt to KO. This helped us keep our kill moves fresh, our combo moves easier to combo, and our projectiles fresh at the percentages when it was the least profitable to approach and attempt to combo.

It didn't work.

I then resigned to having to need a secondary, and openly claimed that MK was merely a hard counter to ROB. No way around it, but I can just pick up a secondary.

After playing and researching G&W, Fox, Lucario, Pikachu, Snake, Marth, Diddy, Ness, Luigi, Bowser, Wario, and pretty much every other character I saw the slightest glimmer of hope for, I found none of them really worked. When researching, I found they were all having the same problems ROB was. All of them.

I picked up MK and never had to look back.... and so did every single other ROB main that didn't quit.


Since then I've continually researched every character I can looking for someone that actually BEATS Metaknight, and I've yet to find anything. You think I'm looking up all this data trying to prove he's ban worthy? I'm looking for data that shows he's not. It doesn't exist, and so I find nothing but things that say he should be banned.



While you might be happy with your unfair advantage, I'm not.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

You could not turn off crates and capsules until a little while ago thanks to people in the Smash Workshop hacking the hell out of this game. The majority of people decided to leave it be since the meta-game has gotten so far without it.

Where were all of you people when Pikachu was (and still is) dominating Smash 64. We needed a bunch of people to follow the few people who liked to not practice and try to get Pikachu banned.........oh wait I know what happened.

Isai ***** your Pikachu with Link.

Umm... No? Try again; you can turn them off by default. Also, two things: first of all, 64 never got a popular as melee or brawl; there was never enough of a community to go into banning it because nobody cared enough. And Isai is and remains an outlier.

OS uses Internet Explorer?

All credibility is lost.

I also use Omegle and Firefox, but generally IE. Firefox is for people that don't know how to edit IE's internal settings to make a faster browser.

</it>

ITT: ****ing disappointment.

EDIT: Disregard that, I suck *****, OS kicks our ***** again.

 

[Overswarm]

Isn't editting IE's settings to make it fast just as bad as editting rules to make MK not broken?

What I'm doing with IE is more equivalent to something like Brawl+.

 

[Tien2500]

Firefox beats it, people just need to learn the matchup.

 

[Praxis]

internet explorer overcentralizes the metagame, ban microsoft

I fully support this.

 

[Overswarm]

I fully support this.

That actually happened.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft#Settlement

In the USA it didn't work out so well for non-Microsoft though.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

I need to learn how to use VDub!!
I have trouble with the software. ;-;-;

http://www.grimfiend.com/lp/vlp/play.php?id=172

Actually wasnt there an incident a few years back when the government stepped in to force microsoft to stop selling Microsoft office separately or as bundle packs[forgot which]. They claimed it was a monopoly attempt

e;f;b by OS

 

[Justblaze647]

This thread is HOT!

And I think OS is making it that way...

<3

 

[Tommy_G]

Umm... No? Try again; you can turn them off by default. Also, two things: first of all, 64 never got a popular as melee or brawl; there was never enough of a community to go into banning it because nobody cared enough. And Isai is and remains an outlier.

wtf is an outlier. That term is stupid and shouldn't account for anything. If a player beat another player with their respective characters, then it's still a win for the one who won and a loss for the loser. The term outlier comes from someone who practices so much and gets so good that their progress is disregarded from the general public? That's bull****. People are still people. Wins are wins and losses are losses.

 

[Omni]

I was without a doubt one of the top 2 ROBs in the country; the only possible competition I had was HugS on the west coast. I was one of the biggest anti-ban supporters and supported efforts to simply change your gameplay or pick up a secondary.

Translation: My ROB was amazing.

To further ROB's metagame, I decided on using data, not opinion, to discover who "went even" or "beat" ROB. I had ROB mains post who they lost to on a consistent basis.

Translation: I made an attempt to improve ROB's metagame by getting the opinions of all ROB players on what they thought match-ups should be made. However, I am Overswarm so a combination of everyone's opinion no longer becomes an opinion if I say it is data.

After removing the "lesser" ROBs who had just picked him up and were losing to random people by only using people who made top 8, we found that Dedede, MK, Marth, and G&W all had higher than average numbers in the "win" category. Further research found that we were simply playing a lot of Marths, and that Marth lost as much as he won; a pretty clear "even matchup".

Translation: Blah, blah, blah.

D3, MK, and G&W were all much different and they really were beating us.

Translation: We lose to DDD, MK, and G&W on a consistent basis.

I then worked really hard to learn the D3 matchup, having been countered by Bloodhawk at a recent tournament. He two stocked me on his CP with Dedede simply by using the chain grab. After some intense study of the character, I fought him a week later and two stocked him. I wrote down the changes in my gameplay with the other top ROBs and ROB mains emulated us.... and D3's wins went down. Changes to the matchup like when to use kill moves, what moves never to use, where to stand on the stage, how to edgeguard, etc., etc., all made the difference. G&W had a similar thing happen, and problems like his bair become boons; we started DIing through it and back-airing him out of his bair and doing simple walk-away f-tilts to out-space him. Approaching with lasers to bait buckets gave us free f-smashes for KOs, and fully charged gyros were used to edgeguard (they forced G&W to up+b earlier than normal, meaning he could be naired from below when recovering).

Translation: I studied the DDD and G&W match-up and overcame!

Metaknight, despite having the most attention, wouldn't go down. While I was still beating the MKs around me, I was doing so with gimps, camping the ledge, and d-tilt locking. Not reliable strategies, as you can't rely on hard to setup infinites and gimps, and camping the ledge only worked against bad players.

Translation: I couldn't beat MK as consistently. I won from time to time, but mainly against bad players.

I then created the first "character specific back room" for ROB mains where we reinvented the character's playstyle to attempt to make him as efficient as possible. We set percentages where we should attempt to combo, percentages where we should camp with projectiles, and percentages where we should attempt to KO. This helped us keep our kill moves fresh, our combo moves easier to combo, and our projectiles fresh at the percentages when it was the least profitable to approach and attempt to combo.

Translation: I tried to work on the match-up more and I still couldn't figure out how to beat MK.

It didn't work.

Translation: It didn't work.

I then resigned to having to need a secondary, and openly claimed that MK was merely a hard counter to ROB. No way around it, but I can just pick up a secondary.

Translation: I gave up figuring out how to beat ROB with MK. I need a secondary to beat MK.

After playing and researching G&W, Fox, Lucario, Pikachu, Snake, Marth, Diddy, Ness, Luigi, Bowser, Wario, and pretty much every other character I saw the slightest glimmer of hope for, I found none of them really worked. When researching, I found they were all having the same problems ROB was. All of them.

Translation: After researching the rest of the cast, I found out Metaknight doesn't have any hard counters!

I picked up MK and never had to look back.... and so did every single other ROB main that didn't quit.

Translation: I picked up a better character and made a wise decision.

Since then I've continually researched every character I can looking for someone that actually BEATS Metaknight, and I've yet to find anything. You think I'm looking up all this data trying to prove he's ban worthy? I'm looking for data that shows he's not. It doesn't exist, and so I find nothing but things that say he should be banned.

Translation: I still can't find a clear counter for Metaknight. Why isn't there a clear counter for MK? I mean, yeah, a few characters go very close with MK and people dispute that the match-ups could be even... but no one outright beats MK!

While you might be happy with your unfair advantage, I'm not.

Translation: It's not fair that MK doesn't have a clear counter. I'm mad.

 

[MarKO X]

Numerous translations

Simplified Translation: STFU

 

[Tien2500]

wtf is an outlier. That term is stupid and shouldn't account for anything. If a player beat another player with their respective characters, then it's still a win for the one who won and a loss for the loser. The term outlier comes from someone who practices so much and gets so good that their progress is disregarded from the general public? That's bull****. People are still people. Wins are wins and losses are losses.

When you're doing any kind of study there are certain people who are called outliers because they are so far away from the norm (I believe three standard deviations). When you're doing a study you are supposed to ignore the results of outliers.

Its not just something that's being made up for this topic.

 

[RDK]

Firefox beats it, people just need to learn the matchup.

I genuinely lol'd at this.

Also, DSF's MK isn't the only thing that has beaten Overswarm. Need we be reminded?

wtf is an outlier. That term is stupid and shouldn't account for anything. If a player beat another player with their respective characters, then it's still a win for the one who won and a loss for the loser. The term outlier comes from someone who practices so much and gets so good that their progress is disregarded from the general public? That's bull****. People are still people. Wins are wins and losses are losses.

"Outlier(s)" is the pro-ban's way of pussyfooting around the fact that people actually beat MK fairly regularly in top-level play.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Ally is the best player on the continent. It's almost ridiculous how much harder he's working in his matches against the top-level MKs. He has way, way more high-level MK experience, than the MKs have high-level Snake experience, and he still barely wins (sometimes he loses, MK wins the matchup).

 

[swordgard]

LOL. Whose grab is worse? She can't even shield grab, I'm pretty sure even Samus and the Links can do that.


Hell, can't even YOSHI shield grab?

Er, ZSS can shieldgrab.

 

[Tien2500]

I genuinely lol'd at this.

Also, DSF's MK isn't the only thing that has beaten Overswarm. Need we be reminded?

"Outlier(s)" is the pro-ban's way of pussyfooting around the fact that people actually beat MK fairly regularly in top-level play.

Glad you enjoyed it. But outliers are a real thing... that being said I don't think Ally, ADHD, and M2k would be good enough to qualify as outliers if we could objectively measure smash brothers skill...

Er, ZSS can shieldgrab.

She can if your opponent does something REALLY laggy against your shield. Her grab takes about 16 frames and if you miss has an lol amount of lag... so shieldgrabbing is rarely viable option.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

wtf is an outlier. That term is stupid and shouldn't account for anything. If a player beat another player with their respective characters, then it's still a win for the one who won and a loss for the loser. The term outlier comes from someone who practices so much and gets so good that their progress is disregarded from the general public? That's bull****. People are still people. Wins are wins and losses are losses.

An outlier is a case so far away from the norm that it can be seen as an exception and not valid for testing. If there was a CF main going around trashing nationals, this would not be the norm, it would not be a reason to recheck CF's validity (well, maybe it would be), it would be the case of someone being way too ****ing good with captain falcon, and therefore an outlier and not really valid for the case.

 

[MarKO X]

Er, ZSS can shieldgrab.

Can she shieldgrab a well spaced attack? According the the frame data that SFP provided, it would seem like spacing ***** her shieldgrabbing capabilities.