Official Metaknight Discussion

[_Keno_]

Translation: After researching the rest of the cast, I found out Metaknight doesn't have any hard counters!

Or light counters, or slightly bad match-ups, or even match-ups...

You know that he isn't looking for a hard counter, but you imply that he is because it is a ridiculous notion and makes him look bad.

 

[Praxis]

Translation: I gave up figuring out how to beat ROB with MK. I need a secondary to beat MK.



Translation: After researching the rest of the cast, I found out Metaknight doesn't have any hard counters!

I love your clever wording.

Change "hard counters" to "even matchups".

EDIT: Ninja'd.

 

[Omni]

I was dramatizing, of course. If he was looking for character that have even match-ups, they exist so it couldn't be even matchups, silly.

Regardless, I love how you two clearly attempt to denote the entire post by pointing out one single "flaw".

Edit: Double peach main tag team? Hmph! Try again!

 

[_Keno_]

I love your clever wording.

Change "hard counters" to "even matchups".

EDIT: Ninja'd.

Us peach mains are just more clever than he.

btw, do you put up videos anymore praxis? I never seen any.

 

[RDK]

I love your clever wording.

Change "hard counters" to "even matchups".

EDIT: Ninja'd.

MK has no even matchups?

What happened to MK / MK? Or MK / Diddy?

 

[Eddie G]

I was dramatizing, of course. If he was looking for character that have even match-ups, they exist so it couldn't be even matchups, silly.

Regardless, I love how you two clearly attempt to denote the entire post by pointing out one single "flaw".

Edit: Double peach main tag team? Hmph! Try again!

Try a triple team.

And your entire reply to Overswarm was a joke. Why the need for multiple (and half-***** might I add ) "translations" of what he already said? Looks like someone just isn't capable of arguing with his own terminology anymore. :'(

MK has no even matchups?

What happened to MK / MK? Or MK / Diddy?

I think they were referring to MK's "even matchups" that don't focus on um...more Metaknight. And technically that isn't even either (port priority). Diddy being even has yet to be convincing. ADHD beating M2K (who claims to not know the MU) at Pound is an isolated incident.

 

[Omni]

What part of it was a joke, King Beef? If you disagreed with anything I said then say what it is and why.

I see nothing inaccurate or wrong about my translations. Fufufufu.

 

[Tien2500]

MK has no even matchups?

What happened to MK / MK? Or MK / Diddy?

How can you count MK/MK in there O_o... I think its implied that MK/MK is an even matchup. In fact the argument against overcentralization (which I don't necessarily agree with) is that playing MK is far and away the best option for dealing with MK.

As for Diddy lets see if ADHD can keep this up and/or if others can replicate his success. It might be even but its hard to say for now. Also MK probably has at least a small advantage when taking stages into account.

 

[Eddie G]

What part of it was a joke, King Beef? If you disagreed with anything I said then say what it is and why.

I see nothing inaccurate or wrong about my translations. Fufufufu.

Oh, I just thought it was a waste of space, that's all. Just wanted to let you know what I thought.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

ZSS can shieldgrab attacks that take less time than the amount of frames it takes to drop shield+17. I believe it takes 8 frames to drop a shield (am I correct?). So yes, ZSS can shieldgrab any attack that has over 24 frames of ending lag.

... Awesome! So that means she can grab a ZSS that missed a grab, a dash attack from dedede, a few Snake moves and some other things.

But her shieldgrab sucks. She basically doesn't have one.

 

[Turbo Ether]

As for Diddy lets see if ADHD can keep this up and/or if others can replicate his success. It might be even but its hard to say for now.

The weight of the world is on ADHD and the Diddy Kong community's shoulders! You guys got this!

 

[_Keno_]

As for Diddy lets see if ADHD can keep this up and/or if others can replicate his success. It might be even but its hard to say for now. Also MK probably has at least a small advantage when taking stages into account.

Even if ADHD keeps beating MKs, that doesnt make the match-up even (or for Diddy).

In melee, Armada continually ***** EVERY fox, as do Hbox and Mango. Jiggs and Peach are both still considered to be countered by fox. Its because the PEOPLE are better, not the character. This MIGHT apply to this situation.

If all the top Diddys start going even/beating top MKs, then I would agree that the match-up is even/counter.

 

[Omni]

Oh, I just thought it was a waste of space, that's all. Just wanted to let you know what I thought.

Translation: I won't respond to your post because I'm afraid of getting shut down.

Fair enough.

 

[Tien2500]

Even if ADHD keeps beating MKs, that doesnt make the match-up even (or for Diddy).

In melee, Armada continually ***** EVERY fox, as do Hbox and Mango. Jiggs and Peach are both still considered to be countered by fox. Its because the PEOPLE are better, not the character. This MIGHT apply to this situation.

If all the top Diddys start going even/beating top MKs, then I would agree that the match-up is even/counter.

Thats why I had the and/or part there.

 

[_Keno_]

Translation: I won't respond to your post because I'm afraid of getting shut down.

Fair enough.

Gah, you are such a ****. When you know a person's purpose/meaning, you try to make it seem like something different (in a negative way) if it doesn't agree with you.

 

[Omni]

In melee, Armada continually ***** EVERY fox, as do Hbox and Mango. Jiggs and Peach are both still considered to be countered by fox. Its because the PEOPLE are better, not the character. This MIGHT apply to this situation.

How do you pinpoint and determine how much the player or character has an effect on the win?

ADHD, no matter how good of a player he is, is still constricted and limited within the laws of Diddy. He follows the same rules that every other Diddy player mains.

Now if ADHD is able to perform at a higher level with Diddy it also means that Diddy is capable of being used at that level. ADHD is one of the player's who have been able to grasp that potential at a higher level.

When "outliers" win with their non-MK mains pro-ban seems to be quick to draw the attention to the actual player instead of the character, but when ANYONE wins with MK pro-ban seems to be quick to draw attention to the actual character as opposed to the player. Interesting, no?

Cheap Peach: I'm simply giving my perspective and interpretation on how I view the information being relayed. I'm not forcing you or anyone to take it as fact so stop being butthurt.

 

[_Keno_]

How do you pinpoint and determine how much the player or character has an effect on the win?

ADHD, no matter how good of a player he is, is still constricted and limited within the laws of Diddy. He follows the same rules that every other Diddy player mains.

Now if ADHD is able to perform at a higher level with Diddy it also means that Diddy is capable of being used at that level. ADHD is one of the player's who have been able to grasp that potential at a higher level.

When "outliers" win with their non-MK mains pro-ban seems to be quick to draw the attention to the actual player instead of the character, but when ANYONE wins with MK pro-ban seems to be quick to draw attention to the actual character as opposed to the player. Interesting, no?

Read the part right under what you quoted. I basically said that if multiple top players of a character are doing better in a match-up against multiple top players of the other character, it can be considered that it is the match-up that is changing, not just the skill of the players. Almost all top MK mains dominate all other top mains, which shows how MK the character is dominating all other characters.

ADHD appears to be just an outlier, like armada.

 

[Eddie G]

Translation: I won't respond to your post because I'm afraid of getting shut down.

Fair enough.

Actual Translation: There is no need for me to "respond" to your post in the way that you expect me to and have you think you can trap me with your fancy but horribly applied terminology.

In fact, there's really no need for me to break your response to him down, seeing as it's just a cheap pot-shot to a legitimate post he made because, and I'm just taking a wild stab in the dark here, "you're lazy". It must be some kind of backlash since you obviously didn't sound like you knew what you were talking about on that podcast. Every time OS presented a point with facts/data you responded with something like "well what I was trying to say" or "well what if..." as your only form of rebuttal.

tl;dr- stop taking pot-shots if you claim to be one of the few in this thread who present legitimate arguments and/or get new material. Plain and simple.

 

[Overswarm]

Translation: I won't respond to your post because I'm afraid of getting shut down.

Fair enough.

Oh, is that what it means?

I have 8 posts waiting for a response from you that you've since ignored because you were "too lazy" or "didn't have the time". Considering you've made it a point to routinely post in this thread, participate in a 2 hour podcast, and post elsewhere on smashboards:

Translation: I won't respond to your post because I'm afraid of getting shut down.




It'd be one thing if you had any actual arguments, but so far your arguments have all been

1) STREET FIGHTER OMFG

2) I don't care if one character doesn't have any hard counters, soft counters, or even matchups except for a ditto. Just pick up that character or beat the MK main with one of the closest characters other than MK by simply being better than them.

3) "So what" (generally meaning "that doesn't matter, just let the game die")

4) Irrelevant, cherry picked data that doesn't even support your case strongly



In addition to this, you've publicly stated in the podcast and the forums that you're simply trolling the thread and that you don't care about the effect of Metaknight on Brawl. You just main Metaknight and want to keep him because you don't see the problem with some players having a clear, set advantage over the rest of the cast.


Omni, you're posts in this thread have been so bad and so full of holes that randoms have consistently been picking you apart. I've got two people who view data, charts, and statistics and have to account for them for a living (one of them is a ****ing engineer) and they say "Well, OS' data is sound" after you denounce it, then you change your stance to "well it just isn't a problem".

If you could give me the slightest glimmer of hope that MK shouldn't be banned, I'd be on board before anyone else could even think it.


The majority of the active SBR members that were neutral have been switching to pro-ban, not anti-ban. Like I said the last time we debated this, the numbers for pro-ban are rising, not falling. People are joining my side, not leaving. In the public, the numbers are even more astounding.

Omni, I have a challenge for you. Pick up another character and play in tournaments that have other Metaknights. I know you're inexperienced with the idea since you have 20 man tournaments as your events in your area and you are the best of the whopping 3 MKs in your region, but the rest of us have to deal with a lot more. I'm beginning to think you're not just ignorant of how statistics and basic competition works, but what the smash community has to go through as a whole.


I mean, come on. Your most vehement supporter is Inui.

 

[Omni]

Read the part right under what you quoted. I basically said that if multiple top players of a character are doing better in a match-up, it can be considered that it is the match-up that is changing, not just the skill of the players. Almost all top MK mains dominate all other top mains, which shows how MK the character is dominating all other characters.

ADHD is currently just an outlier, like armada.

However, you can't measure multiple top players accurately because Metaknight will always be the popular choice. Every other character will be underrepresented thus it is important to make note of the specific players who do break the MK barrier and how their performance reflects on the match-up.

And what do you mean all top MK mains dominate all other top mains?

DEHF beats Tyrant, DSF, Havok on a consistent basis.
ADHD beats every Metaknight on a consistent basis.
Ally beats every Metaknight except M2K on a consistent basis.

Those 3 encompass ALL of the top MK mains you are referring to so what gives you the idea that MK is dominating the top non-MK mains?

 

[CRASHiC]

Ally beats every Metaknight except M2K on a consistent basis.

He has a hard time with west coast, they beat him pretty frequently. He also lost to Seibrik.

 

[Tien2500]

Anyone have a link to this podcast I hear so much about?

 

[RDK]

Try a triple team.
I think they were referring to MK's "even matchups" that don't focus on um...more Metaknight. And technically that isn't even either (port priority). Diddy being even has yet to be convincing. ADHD beating M2K (who claims to not know the MU) at Pound is an isolated incident.

I've already explained why the "isolated incident" argument is garbage.

There are way too many "isolated incidents" at high-level play for that to be convincing.

 

[Omni]

Oh, is that what it means?

I have 8 posts waiting for a response from you that you've since ignored because you were "too lazy" or "didn't have the time". Considering you've made it a point to routinely post in this thread, participate in a 2 hour podcast, and post elsewhere on smashboards:

Translation: I won't respond to your post because I'm afraid of getting shut down.




It'd be one thing if you had any actual arguments, but so far your arguments have all been

1) STREET FIGHTER OMFG

2) I don't care if one character doesn't have any hard counters, soft counters, or even matchups except for a ditto. Just pick up that character or beat the MK main with one of the closest characters other than MK by simply being better than them.

3) "So what" (generally meaning "that doesn't matter, just let the game die")

4) Irrelevant, cherry picked data that doesn't even support your case strongly



In addition to this, you've publicly stated in the podcast and the forums that you're simply trolling the thread and that you don't care about the effect of Metaknight on Brawl. You just main Metaknight and want to keep him because you don't see the problem with some players having a clear, set advantage over the rest of the cast.

I don't respond to your posts because they're novels. You have an issue with summarizing and I have an issue with spending 30 minutes to make a response. Lol @ being afraid of being shut down. You funny.

Again, you denounce any argument that is brought to the table from anyone. At no time, OS, have you said... "hm... good argument... i'll have to think about this s'more". Rather, any argument or opposition to your idea or belief automatically has no bearing and/or you refuse to acknowledge it as good material.

I've made many more arguments including the 4 you've oh so dumbed down, but good job at doing exactly what you criticize me for by cherry picking arguments that I have made in attempt to support your idea.

I don't recall saying I'm trolling the thread nor do I recall saying that I don't care. I do enjoy trolling the thread from time to time and there are times where I truly don't care to be involved, but my presence and persistence on the topic alone is evidence enough to disprove that wild accusation. Get outta' town, Charlie Brown.

Edit: @Crashic: Which MK's from WC does Ally consistently lose to? Maybe I'm not well-informed about that area.

 

[CRASHiC]

I've already explained why the "isolated incident" argument is garbage.

There are way too many "isolated incidents" at high-level play for that to be convincing.

There are 2 people. One of who uses Metaknight now. Whoopdie ****in do.

 

[RDK]

Anyone have a link to this podcast I hear so much about?

http://p2w.x10hosting.com/Podcast/P2W_Podcast_12_To_Ban_Or_Not_To_Ban_Part_1.mp3

http://p2w.x10hosting.com/Podcast/P2W_Podcast_12_To_Ban_Or_Not_To_Ban_Part_2.mp3

 

[Overswarm]

I've already explained why the "isolated incident" argument is garbage.

There are way too many "isolated incidents" at high-level play for that to be convincing.

Data please.

Over the past few months, everything we've collected says the exact opposite.

Again, a grand total of 6 players beating the top MKs 2 times or more in the entire period, and they all main different characters save for two (Ally + Razer playing Snake).

 

[Omni]

Again with the data cry.

Data can be interpreted in many ways based on who views it, OS. This includes YOUR data.

This is why you having a massive amount of data doesn't suddenly make your point any stronger.

 

[Eddie G]

I've already explained why the "isolated incident" argument is garbage.

There are way too many "isolated incidents" at high-level play for that to be convincing.

One man's trash is another man's treasure.

So...Ally and ADHD, tip-top level of play, two people, two years, a few victories, and one of them even uses MK now.

I ask you good sir: How the **** does that not register in your brain as a legitimate isolated incident argument? You're just being a stickler to your previous principles at this point... *sigh*

 

[Tien2500]

Thanks rdk.

 

[Overswarm]

I don't respond to your posts because they're novels. You have an issue with summarizing and I have an issue with spending 30 minutes to make a response. Lol @ being afraid of being shut down. You funny.

Translation: I'll read dozens and dozens of posts by other people in this thread, even those that are merely responding to Overswarm's posts, but I shy away from Overswarm's posts since I can't respond to them with anything worthwhile, so I find my best strategy is to simply act like they should be ignored, so people from anti-ban will stop switching to pro-ban. I simply claim they are "too long" and have "too much information" and require too much of a time investment and then I simply post one-liners, quips, pictures and straw mans on a daily basis and hope people don't notice I main Metaknight.

 

[RDK]

There are 2 people. One of who uses Metaknight now. Whoopdie ****in do.

What does the fact that one also uses Metaknight have anything to do with anything? Obviously if you have experience playing with MK, you're going to know the matchup a little bit better.

So then literally do what anti-ban has been saying and pick up Metaknight.

I'm not even arguing that MK shouldn't be banned at this point; I'm past that. Now I'm literally just picking apart ridiculous arguments that people are still using after multiple threads and months of discussion.

I'd like to see this come to a conclusion, but it's not going to happen when the community is repeating the same old fallacies over and over again.

 

[RDK]

Data please.

Over the past few months, everything we've collected says the exact opposite.

Again, a grand total of 6 players beating the top MKs 2 times or more in the entire period, and they all main different characters save for two (Ally + Razer playing Snake).

Those six players are my data.

It may indicate the exact opposite to you, but whether or not those six players are convincing to you or I is a completely subjective argument. People arguing here are coming from different ends of the spectrum, so we can't expect everyone to be on the same page. You know that.

 

[OverLade]

Ally is the best player on the continent. It's almost ridiculous how much harder he's working in his matches against the top-level MKs. He has way, way more high-level MK experience, than the MKs have high-level Snake experience, and he still barely wins (sometimes he loses, MK wins the matchup).

This this this this this this this this this and this.

 

[TwentyTwo]

You also have to consider Ally only uses MK in winner's. He didn't change from Snake once he entered loser's at Pound 4.

 

[Overswarm]

Again with the data cry.

Data can be interpreted in many ways based on who views it, OS. This includes YOUR data.

This is why you having a massive amount of data doesn't suddenly make your point any stronger.

Please explain how my data is faulty.

If you showed me "Look, Metaknight has under a 50% win ratio and multiple players and characters are beating him! We have a statistical trend that shows a decline in MK dominance!" I couldn't say ****. What we have instead is the exact opposite. You can't torture data to show a steady increase or decrease of MK dominance from the top 8 players at 150+ entrant tournaments and then do it again with 100+ players while comparing it to a steady increase in MK dominance that includes every tournament recorded and be "manipulating data".

So again, I'd like you to explain why my data is wrong. I've used at least 5 or 6 different approaches to collecting it, just in case one of mine was wrong and I have more sitting on the back burner waiting to be posted. I've had two people who analyze data for a living analyze my data and I have yet to see any holes noted by anyone on the forums.

Unless, of course, you're just another lazy guy.

Those six players are my data.

It may indicate the exact opposite to you, but whether or not those six players are convincing to you or I is a completely subjective argument. People arguing here are coming from different ends of the spectrum, so we can't expect everyone to be on the same page. You know that.

This isn't true.

We have 6 players beating a pool of 13 more than once. Not even consistently, just more than once. That bar is set pretty low.

To make matters worse for your "it's arbitrary and subjective" argument, this data was posted because people said "But look at ADHD wrecking all those MKs!" and claiming Diddy was a counter to MK, or at least went even. All data shows otherwise, especially seeing as how we have one Diddy in that group and two Snakes; it would make more sense to claim Snake is a counter to MK seeing as how Snakes have fared better than Diddy in literally every aspect of tournament level play, but we've already seen that Snake doesn't so Diddy is the new pipe dream.

So if you'd like to explain to me how seeing one player maining Diddy among a group of 6 players that are able to win at least twice against the top MKs can justify the claim "Diddy beats MK", I'd like to see it.

 

[CRASHiC]

What does the fact that one also uses Metaknight have anything to do with anything? Obviously if you have experience playing with MK, you're going to know the matchup a little bit better.

So then literally do what anti-ban has been saying and pick up Metaknight.

The pick up Metaknight is a joke, you know that right? People who had Ban Metaknight avatars after the 3rd poll changed it to Main Metaknight as a joke saying that "there is no other option."

But anyway, its important because it shows that someone who use to be a sign that there was hopes for Metaknight not to completely takeover is now himself a Metaknight user. Its a sign of over centralization on top level play.

 

[Omni]

Translation: I'll read dozens and dozens of posts by other people in this thread, even those that are merely responding to Overswarm's posts, but I shy away from Overswarm's posts since I can't respond to them with anything worthwhile, so I find my best strategy is to simply act like they should be ignored, so people from anti-ban will stop switching to pro-ban. I simply claim they are "too long" and have "too much information" and require too much of a time investment and then I simply post one-liners, quips, pictures and straw mans on a daily basis and hope people don't notice I main Metaknight.

Nah.

Your posts are the only ones that force me to scroll down for multiple seconds until I've reached the bottom. Notice that I've responded to several of your points and arguments when they are within a certain limit.

I mean, you can be mad but it is what it is. I'll always be down to play with you if it doesn't require me spending massive amounts of time responding to a single post.

You refuse to summarize. I refuse to reply to novels. Don't be mad.

 

[Eddie G]

I guess they'll let just about anyone be a mod these days.

I thought mods were generally not that lazy and spent some time on the boards. By what you say you display neither.

Your Fox guide didn't help me all that much back in the day by the way, sorry. :'(

 

[Overswarm]

I guess they'll let just about anyone be a mod these days.

The guy even banned himself because he was so upset.

u mad Omni?