Official Metaknight Discussion

[swordgard]

Yep, we don't train to get better or to learn the MK matchup as much as possible, and haven't been for at least a year and a half now. Gfto of here with that cocky *** assumption.

@ Swordgard- Alright, then go train, take notes, do whatever it is that you claim to be the proper way of doing things, then go beat M2K/Ally/ADHD in tournament consistently. See if that "isn't too hard" still. Sorry, but bold claims like yours are naive and blindly optimistic without acknowledging the facts.

Working on it, I never said I could beat all 3 consistently though, just that reaching their level is definitely possible. If one of these 3 would always win, hed be on a whole new level. Working on beating ally consistently, hes 3-1 with me in the last 6 months.

 

[Overswarm]

Working on it, I never said I could beat all 3 consistently though, just that reaching their level is definitely possible. If one of these 3 would always win, hed be on a whole new level. Working on beating ally consistently, hes 3-1 with me in the last 6 months.

Noob. Try harder.





Tell that to everyone else at your tournament too.

 

[Sorto]

it's extremely naive to think that anyone can just train harder and reach the levels that people like ADHD have, natural talent does come into play. a lot of the top players we're talking about that are an exception to the rule were better a year ago than some of us ever will be which doesn't necessarily imply that MK is a problem either, because likewise, some like M2K and dojo are similarly gifted. it's not just MK that makes them not lose often. but people can't just say anyones inability to win is always laziness, some top players claim to barely play the game at all.

i feel the top level pros dont barely play this game. Maybe they don't train like they did in melee. But that is because this game is less technical. Alot of there ability comes from mind games and knowing options which they get from match experience. There are no top pros that dont go to many tournaments. But that is a given, since to be a top pro you must have a lot of high placing results in many tournies

 

[Sorto]

The entire point was that the math works out because it's a faulty assumption. We know guns are better.



Last time they said this MK stepped it up >_>

but either result gives me nothing. If i didnt know guns were better before your post, your post would still not prove that guns are better. The guns being better has to be known prior to your case. The same as mk.

 

[complexity1234]

Noob. Try harder.





Tell that to everyone else at your tournament too.

uhh yea thats the whole point.

It takes alot of time though and alot of hard work to reach the level of those 3.
But its possible.
Just like in any game you have to put in alot of time and effort to reach the top level.

Ignoring data, we've seen through watching matches that mk can go even with alot of characters.
Which is all you need. If you lose an even matchup than you were out skilled and need to improve.

Data also ignores how close the matches were. What if most of those games came down to last hit, like mk vs falco and the mk happened to win, data just says "MK won, doesnt matter how close the game was."
Last hit could have gone to either character.

 

[popsofctown]

Oh come on guys, it's too late to ban Meta Knight. You already let him dominate long enough that I had to drop all the characters i liked to play and mained him. I waited like, what, 9 months, a year or so, hoping yall would ban him so I wouldn't have to do that but y'all wouldn't so yeah.

You can't ban him now, I switched already. That'd be sucky timing. Besides I like winning against people too ashamed to tier *****. It's slightly funner than losing with my favorite characters.

 

[Overswarm]

but either result gives me nothing. If i didnt know guns were better before your post, your post would still not prove that guns are better. The guns being better has to be known prior to your case. The same as mk.

We did. They killed 500 people in my example compared to 80 killed by knives. The point was he manipulated data "to account for population" but didn't consider all variables and, in fact, ignored some pretty obvious ones.

uhh yea thats the whole point.

It takes alot of time though and alot of hard work to reach the level of those 3.
But its possible.
Just like in any game you have to put in alot of time and effort to reach the top level.

Ignoring data, we've seen through watching matches that mk can go even with alot of characters.
Which is all you need. If you lose an even matchup than you were out skilled and need to improve.

Data also ignores how close the matches were. What if most of those games came down to last hit, like mk vs falco and the mk happened to win, data just says "MK won, doesnt matter how close the game was."
Last hit could have gone to either character.

The "coin flip" theory isn't new.

Theory is, a lot of these matchups are so close that they're basically last hit anyway and people just need that last little "umph" to win it all.

Issue is, it's not the case. If it were, we'd have entirely different results.. unless MK was winning near 100% of those "coin flip" scenarios (which woudl be crazy)

 

[Omni]

Waiting for Ankoku at the moment.

So when MK isn't banned again what's going to be your next step, OS?

 

[Flayl]

There's a reason why I collected data for 4 months and not just 1. Because if it came down to last hit constantly the odds of MK winning out as often as he does would become astronomically low.

 

[HeroMystic]

So when MK isn't banned again what's going to be your next step, OS?

He'll eat that cake he made.

 

[Espy Rose]

I like how it was a response to me, and I responded to it, but it went unnoticed until OS said something about it. Anonymity is a pain sometimes.

I remember that thread too. The thing I took away from it was that people like M2K and Ally are just ridiculously good at reading people and reacting efficiently, and dont' put nearly as much time into this game as most people would think.

Lies. You're not some anonymous to me!~
I love Nanaki.
I just haven't been reading every single last post this thread has to offer, and probably didn't read your exchange.

He'll eat that cake he made.

There will be no cake until he is banned, boy.
Get Meta Knight banned. I want some ****ing cake!!

uhh yea thats the whole point.

It takes alot of time though and alot of hard work to reach the level of those 3.
But its possible.
Just like in any game you have to put in alot of time and effort to reach the top level.

I recall Ally saying that he never plays Brawl, unless it's tournament, money matches, or friendlies if the opponent asked him to play 3 times- like Beetlejuice.

 

[Delvro]

I'd really like some cake right now. Please ban Metaknight.

Pretty please with cherry-picking on top.

 

[Overswarm]

Waiting for Ankoku at the moment.

So when MK isn't banned again what's going to be your next step, OS?

 

[popsofctown]

Lol... those are apocalyptic horses right?


Get Meta Knight banned OverSwarm I want cake.

 

[MarKO X]

I guess character viability is more important that how the community would actually react to what I think would be a slightly premature banning of MetaKnight.

For the record, in the original Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo, Akuma was unbeatable. Period. The air fireball was the 100% best approach in the game, and it could set up red fireball locks, air fireball locks if the opponent was tall enough, and very easy to perform hi damaging stun combos. On top of that, he could not be stunned, and his teleport was lagless and invincible.

HD Remix Akuma is banned. No, he wasn't winning anything, but Sirlin did admit that he kinda f**ked up with Akuma, and Damdai (he won 2nd or 3rd at last year's evo) supposedly had some pretty broken s**t that he could have done with Akuma. (got that from Omni btw, it's posted somewhere in this thread.)

 

[Nanaki]

Lies. You're not some anonymous to me!~
I love Nanaki.
I just haven't been reading every single last post this thread has to offer, and probably didn't read your exchange.

lol <3 Espy

You're going to have to make a freakishly big cake, OS.

 

[Overswarm]

HD Remix Akuma is banned. No, he wasn't winning anything, but Sirlin did admit that he kinda f**ked up with Akuma, and Damdai (he won 2nd or 3rd at last year's evo) supposedly had some pretty broken s**t that he could have done with Akuma. (got that from Omni btw, it's posted somewhere in this thread.)

Well I'm convinced.

You're going to have to make a freakishly big cake, OS.

If MK does get banned and the MW goes along with it, I'm gonna have a pretty awesome surprise.

 

[Espy Rose]

Fixed for great, MK justice.

Nanaki, if I have a slice of OS's cake and you don't, I'm sharing some of it with you. <3

 

[popsofctown]

will pay $ 4 cayk

 

[TLMSheikant]

Can I have some of that cake?

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

I'd rather ask OS what he will do after MK gets banned.

Will the cake be distributed around the nation or just in your region? Do you perhaps have people in every region ready to bake the same cake recipe you will be and pass it around? Or maybe it will be at the first MK banned national, which is it OS?


Also I had become anti ban in the last poll but i've changed my mind to pro ban since it seems all the anti ban arguments now are "tournament results are trash and should be ignored" and "Your all lazy"

 

[MarKO X]

lol

in case your wondering what a funny looking HDR Akuma looks like: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xy1EJtce1fI

 

[Nanaki]

Fixed for great, MK justice.

Nanaki, if I have a slice of OS's cake and you don't, I'm sharing some of it with you. <3

^^ my new BFF.

The prospect of this awesome OS surprise is pulling me off the fence and hardcore onto the pro-ban side of things...

 

[MarKO X]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efvm18rdpZY

starting @ 2:42, some of the stuff that Akuma can do in a match...

air fireball still has gay zoning, can cross up, and can lead into a free raging demon if blocked.

 

[camelot]

There will be no cake until he is banned, boy.
Get Meta Knight banned. I want some ****ing cake!!

Sorry, the cake is banned, too.

 

[Mew2King]

Are you really using me for an argument?

Can you not see how big of an advantage I had over all the other brawl pros by starting Melee at an EXTREMELY HIGH LEVEL ALREADY (1st/2nd best in the world when brawl came out). Then consider I was and still am the most dominant MK --- BY FAR ---

so you would THINK that with BROKEN GOD CHARACTER MK, I would be able to beat Ally in my most practiced matchup (Snake, because of fighting computer snakes so frequently when I practiced) more than 50% of the time (it's pretty much exactly 50%) or be able to come AT LEAST SLIGHTLY CLOSE TO BEATING ADHD AT ALL. You'd think Larry wouldn't keep beating Tyrant, arguably the 2nd best MK, even though everyone's like "MK ***** falco... I mean MK ***** Everyone!!!" stupid biased boards overrating an overused character

Also OS I know for a fact you go to each individual person on aim and the boards and try to change their mind. In fact this past weekend you kept telling individual people to post to ban MK at the ohio tourney this weekend at Nope's. You use EXTREMELY underhanded tactics to get people on your side. You even PLANKED me in tourney this weekend to try to get him banned because there was no ledge grab rule, so I just went after you and ***** you, then ***** you without planking you back to prove a point. (I still think planking is stupid and shouldn't be allowed though)

On top of that, you use statistics which LARGELY COME FROM ME AND PEOPLE I TRAINED OR HELPED IMPROVE (some a little but some a lot). This past summer, I was over DSF's house training DSF and Tyrant both for THREE WEEKS, getting them both a lot better in the process. Dojo and me talked on aim a lot, and me and Havok still do sometimes. Ksizl got personally trained by me before Apex for 5-6 hours, then we played a lot for hours a few days before Pound4. Shadow copied a lot of my tactics. I taught Inui, Spam, and Atomsk various stuff. I play Judge frequently at midwest tourneys. Redhalberd studies my videos. We all shared and copied various strategies.

fun fact - i picked up marth in melee because of ken/azen then copied all their stuff then made up my own stuff. It wasn't just randomly I felt like using him (although I did like chain grabbing and anything that involves 0-deaths).

edit - I was best in the world with ddd for the first half of the year that I mained him before I decided to switch mains

edit 2 - no I do not have any intention of traveling for smash if my character is banned because I already put SO MUCH EFFORT into solely 1 character, just like ADHD did with Diddy, just like Hungrybox did with Jiggs (both who laugh at the suggestion of banning a character, along with Mango) to have him banned because he's really popular even though much of his dominance comes from my influence is completely unfair and you're a ****** for going around telling everyone to ban him because you're bad with him and so you can plank people with rob like you did before. Maybe if you spent as much time playing the game as arguing on the boards you would be good. I personally do not have any more time to practice smash (melee and brawl, because of college and trying to catch up to vidjo's knowledge in programming and other aspects of game development) which is why I need to go off of the skill I already have with the character I put like 2,000 hours into.

 

[Overswarm]

lol

in case your wondering what a funny looking HDR Akuma looks like: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xy1EJtce1fI

Ahem. If we're gonna talk about Akuma...

AZ: The reason for the banning of Akuma wasn't because he dominated tournaments. Both Seth and Gouken were banned while they were given a Mid-tier ranking. It's the concept that the character's did not fit properly within the game due to extremely abnormal abilities.

Also, Seth and Gouken were nothing like Akuma. They are completely separate issues dealing with differences in versions are of the game (seth/Gouken) and dealing with a character that some believed was broken (Akuma). In the end, Akuma was universally allowed for a few months, then Sirlin came out of the sky and declared (and got EVO to remove) Akuma to be broken because he wasn't "working as intended". In other words, because he designed the game, he felt that something not going according to plan was reason enough to remove the character (basically he went against ALL the principles he outlined in his own book).

Was Akuma proven to be broken beyond a shadow of a doubt?
-NO
Is the game much better without Akuma?
-NO
Designers intent is meaningless?
-Apparently it is only meaningless if you aren't the designer (ROFL)

That said, removing Akuma in HDR is definitely a good thing for the MK ban movement - the best Akuma ever did in that game is like 2 spots in the top 8.

 

[Overswarm]

Are you really using me for an argument?

Can you not see how big of an advantage I had over all the other brawl pros by starting Melee at an EXTREMELY HIGH LEVEL ALREADY (1st/2nd best in the world when brawl came out). Then consider I was and still am the most dominant MK --- BY FAR ---

so you would THINK that with BROKEN GOD CHARACTER MK, I would be able to beat Ally in my most practiced matchup (Snake, because of fighting computer snakes so frequently when I practiced) more than 50% of the time (it's pretty much exactly 50%) or be able to come AT LEAST SLIGHTLY CLOSE TO BEATING ADHD AT ALL. You'd think Larry wouldn't keep beating Tyrant, arguably the 2nd best MK, even though everyone's like "MK ***** falco... I mean MK ***** Everyone!!!" stupid biased boards overrating an overused character

Also OS I know for a fact you go to each individual person on aim and the boards and try to change their mind. In fact this past weekend you kept telling individual people to post to ban MK at the ohio tourney this weekend at Nope's. You use EXTREMELY underhanded tactics to get people on your side. You even PLANKED me in tourney this weekend to try to get him banned because there was no ledge grab rule, so I just went after you and ***** you, then ***** you without planking you back to prove a point. (I still think planking is stupid and shouldn't be allowed though)

On top of that, you use statistics which LARGELY COME FROM ME AND PEOPLE I TRAINED. This past summer, I was over DSF's house training DSF and Tyrant both for THREE WEEKS, getting them both a lot better in the process. Dojo and me talked on aim a lot, and me and Havok still do sometimes. Ksizl got personally trained by me before Apex for 5-6 hours, then we played a lot for hours a few days before Pound4. Shadow copied a lot of my tactics. I taught Inui, Spam, and Atomsk various stuff. I play Judge frequently at midwest tourneys. Redhalberd studies my videos.

fun fact - i picked up marth in melee because of ken/azen then copied all their stuff then made up my own stuff. It wasn't just randomly I felt like using him (although I did like chain grabbing and anything that involves 0-deaths).

You heard it here first folks:

Metaknight is only good because of Mew2King.



...who switched to him from Dedede and copied off of Forte.

 

[Sorto]

We did. They killed 500 people in my example compared to 80 killed by knives. The point was he manipulated data "to account for population" but didn't consider all variables and, in fact, ignored some pretty obvious ones.



The "coin flip" theory isn't new.

Theory is, a lot of these matchups are so close that they're basically last hit anyway and people just need that last little "umph" to win it all.

Issue is, it's not the case. If it were, we'd have entirely different results.. unless MK was winning near 100% of those "coin flip" scenarios (which woudl be crazy)

But you are clearly manipulating it too. You said we all know that guns are more dangerous then knives as a precondition. Your data does not prove it. You assumed that we knew guns were better. Your statistics proves nothing about there dangers. All it proves is that there are more gun owners. And these gun owners kill less people per person then the knifers. No proof that gun are more dangerous. If amount of people killed equals danger in your situation then knives are more dangerous per person. 1 person owns an atomic bomb and he kills 400 people. Atomic bombs are less dangerous then guns and knives. Both your things prove nothing except that per person atomic bombs, then knives, then guns kill people in that order......

 

[ADHD]

I got a question for all of you, are we willing to sacrifice a character to get an healthier metagame if it is already healthy?(not insinuating anything, just a question)

But are you healthy enough to healthily state that we healthily not ban him due to it being unhealthy for the currently healthy community?

 

[Turbo Ether]

M2K, you training against Snake CPU is superior to Ally training on wifi and winning ladders? Same thing with ADHD. Wifi clearly helped both guys build a great skill set. Most of the top players nowadays play or have played wifi to some extent.

 

[complexity1234]

I recall Ally saying that he never plays Brawl, unless it's tournament, money matches, or friendlies if the opponent asked him to play 3 times- like Beetlejuice.

Here look, this works with any game including smash.

He had to play alot to reach a high level. Once you become super good, you dont have to practice the game as much anymore because your smart already and know what your doing.
That and he's ahead of everyone else. Make sense?

And going to tournaments every weekend and smashfests means you play brawl..

 

[MarKO X]

lol when and where were Seth and Gouken banned? (they were perfectly legal @ evo)

 

[Mew2King]

Overswarm I switched to MK because MK is obviously better AND A LOT MORE FUN than DDD. I'm saying A LARGE PART OF HIS DOMINANCE comes from me, people i trained, or my influence, and I explained why.

I don't wifi because I don't think it helps. I tried it, and it lagged so much (0.3 sec) that it just messed up my timing when I played in real life. I don't know what universally makes people good/better except playing a lot or just being smart or both (helps to have both). I think I'm smart, I have studied MK a LOT, and I have played him a LOT. Ally is naturally smart. ADHD plays a lot, and is smart.

 

[RDK]

Lol, I love how M2K comes in here and starts yelling at OS.

[/desperateattempttonotgetmycharacterbanned]

 

[Espy Rose]

Overswarm I switched to MK because MK is obviously better AND A LOT MORE FUN than DDD.

Yeah. I think winning a bunch of money is fun too.

Lol, I love how M2K comes in here and starts yelling at OS.

[/desperateattempttonotgetmycharacterbanned]

lol. You forgot the [desperateattempttonotgetmycharacterbanned].

 

[Mew2King]

I was already dominating with DDD so you can't even say that. I'm a good player because of Melee. Most of you guys want him banned because you can't win how it is, so you will vote to ban him to do better yourselves. There is no reason for him to be gone except for people's greed which is why the "majority rules" vote is stupid. This community sucks. I have lost all respect for this community if that is what happens.

 

[6Mizu]

Yeah. I think winning a bunch of money is fun too.

LOL!

Really, you should main MK too.
jk.


EDIT: @ M2K
M2K if you played another character and went up against a MK that at the Lvl your at, then you'd be on our side. Because then you would be able to win either. All I'm saying is that I see where the others are coming from.
But anyway M2k's right. Mk doesn't need to be banned.
Only thing I can say to explain it is.....
Lrn the MU.

I'm not saying I know it....but that experience helps, and lots of it.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I was already dominating with DDD so you can't even say that. I'm a good player because of Melee. Most of you guys want him banned because you can't win how it is, so you will vote to ban him to do better yourselves. There is no reason for him to be gone except for people's greed which is why the "majority rules" vote is stupid. This community sucks. I have lost all respect for this community if that is what happens.

Just because you revealed how broken he is doesn't mean he isn't broken.

 

[Espy Rose]

I was already dominating with DDD so you can't even say that. I'm a good player because of Melee. Most of you guys want him banned because you can't win how it is, so you will vote to ban him to do better yourselves. There is no reason for him to be gone except for people's greed which is why the "majority rules" vote is stupid. This community sucks. I have lost all respect for this community if that is what happens.

The same could be said for those who don't want him banned. I COULD be saying, "You don't want him banned because you win with him, so you'll vote to keep him so you can continue to do good and win money, etcetcetc."

Not that anyone's saying that to begin with, because both assumptions are ridiculous and antagonizing.

Maybe you should avoid this thread, unless you want to summon a ****-storm on yourself.

Lrn the MU.

Why are people still bringing this up?