I thought there was some degree of debate as to who the best character in SF4 is?Its the exact same reason sagat is the most played character in sf4, even if technically he has slightly losing matchups i believe(45:55).
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I thought there was some degree of debate as to who the best character in SF4 is?Its the exact same reason sagat is the most played character in sf4, even if technically he has slightly losing matchups i believe(45:55).
Pac West.Larry gets 1st in the midwest over Tyrant usually (DEHF the Falco). Tyrant's most likely the 2nd best MK, and he knows the matchup fine. How is MK this "god character" everyone speaks about.
oh yeah i forgot; he's popular
Nope, Sagat is the undisputed best. Followed by Ryu and Boxer. But Sagat's MU aren't as good as MK's.I thought there was some degree of debate as to who the best character in SF4 is?
I thought there was some talk about Akuma being best. Do you have a link to the SF4 tier lists? I couldn't find the most current one.Nope, Sagat is the undisputed best. Followed by Ryu and Boxer. But Sagat's MU aren't as good as MK's.
This logic is BS.Of course getting better would help but no matter how much better you get MK will still have better options and all. No matter how much better you get you'll be at a disadvantage against MK no matter what character you use.
Obviously all fighting games do have a best character but there are two questions. The first is how much better than the rest of the cast is this character. The second is does this character warp the metagame to the point where it is no longer desirable to play.
Ok. And what if the MK player learns your options? And he has a far better moveset which gives him more options than most characters do. You act as if once you learn to beat MKs options he has no other ones when in fact he has better options than all of the cast which is why he does as well as he does.This logic is BS.
If you Lrn the MU you should know the MKs options and know how to deal with those otions.
I don't care how many people agree with it.
I don't know whats BS. All he said in a nutshell was that Meta Knight is the best character and that overcentralization is a bad thing.This logic is BS.
If you Lrn the MU you should know the MKs options and know how to deal with those otions.
I don't care how many people agree with it.
You cannot assume that MK will always have the upper hand, thats ridiculous. Give it some time and check if its true.Ok. And what if the MK player learns your options? And he has a far better moveset which gives him more options than most characters do. You act as if once you learn to beat MKs options he has no other ones when in fact he has better options than all of the cast which is why he does as well as he does.
we prefer the word outliers, it makes disregarding things that are inconvenient to our agenda sound much better.oh but um... that shouldn't be happening because mk is so broken and ***** everyone by a lot and should be banned I guess they were just flukes
I guess if your definition of being broken is simply not having even matchups than yes MK is broken. I like using broken for other things though, like IDC.Legitimate best characters in other games have even matchups.
I guess my point really is MK doesn't have even matchups.
And in fact the whole of Smashboards is guilty of down-playing ratios. (55:45 should become either 50:50 or 60:40, 60:40 should become 70:30 and 70:30 should become 80:20).
If Falco, Diddy, Snake and IC's were only at a 45:55 disadvantage, wouldn't we see a lot more of them beating the top MK's?
So far all evidence (frame data, priority, results and whatever) shows that MK does have the best options in the widest range of situations. There is always the potential for some sort of major break through but it doesn't seem particularly likely considering it would take a pretty major discovery.You cannot assume that MK will always have the upper hand, thats ridiculous. Give it some time and check if its true.
he goes even with snake, falco, and diddy.I guess if your definition of being broken is simply not having even matchups than yes MK is broken.
Not according to the facts the pro-ban has gathered.he goes even with snake, falco, and diddy.
All of those are very highly debatable. Especially Falco since that's only true with certain rules in place.he goes even with snake, falco, and diddy.
90 points or more? Metaknight has 4000. How, exactly, did you arrive at 90?The Average Character Ranking
- 270 (out of 2 Snakes)
- 256.09 (out of 3 Diddy's)
- 252.59 (out of 2 Ice Climbers')
-206.28 (out of 13 Metaknight's)
- 173.51 (out of 2 Marth's)
Numbers were calculated by taking a sample size of 29 players. These 29 players were players who contributed 90 points or more to the current character rankings.
Despite having a little less than half of the representation, Metaknight is only 4th best in terms of average placings. Essentially, a population of 7 non-MK players all have a substantially higher average. MK's 4000 point placement is due to MK's over representation and the remaining cast's under representation.
MK does not perform at a level that is beyond expectation. He simply performs at a certain level at a high rate. Regardless of attendance, a Snake, Diddy, and Ice Climbers still out performs all Metaknight's with the exception of Mew2King. Why is this happening? Because certain players have stepped up their game and have brought their character to higher levels within the metagame.
Overswarm likes to call these players "outliers" but what does being the best at your character have anything to do with character representation? If you take away the Ally, ADHD, and M2K you're still left with Lain at the top of the rankings. However, it's important to recognize these three.
Surprisingly enough ADHD, M2K, and Ally weren't always as good as they are today. In the beginning, DSF's Snake ruled the WC while Azen's Lucario and M2K's DDD ruled the East Coast. ADHD and Ally were busy playing Wifi while M2K was getting his Metaknight demolished by Azen's Lucario. Time passed and M2K claimed the top. More time passed and Ally joined him. More time passed and now ADHD is up there.
The trend is that as time goes by people get better. Some better than others. Imagine that. No one could predict that Ally's Snake could succeed where DSF's Snake failed. No one could predict that ADHD's Diddy would be the second thorn in M2K's back after Ninjalink. But these events are happening so why would pro-ban predict that it will no longer happen?
The game is not stagnant. It is moving and progressing and growing. The current Top 4 has foru different characters at the top despite the massive MK army that follows.
The problem is that there are some who are fine with this being the case. Then there are others who are not. This is what essentially separates anti-ban from pro-ban. When I look at the current metagame I see healthy. When Overswarm looks at the current metagame he see's unhealthy. We're looking at the same thing, but what changes is our lenses. How we perceive the metagame alters significantly. How we see the metagame evolving becomes vastly different. What he may see as a problem may be normal in my eyes and vice versa.
Very true, all I'm saying is that when you know the MU completely.....you guys would not be complaining like others that know the MU. Nor would we be having this discussion. So quit whining and go play some MKs.You cannot assume that MK will always have the upper hand, thats ridiculous. Give it some time and check if its true.
So what in your opinion are the things that MK lacks?you can't just base things off frames, priority, and stuff like that. This is why Marth is so overrated in Melee. Wasn't I the only marth in the top 32 at genesis. Taj I think maybe too I forget. Marth lacks kills and projectile and other things, and Sheik Fox Falco and especially Jiggs are far better characters than him as a whole.
?Not according to the facts the pro-ban has gathered.
Hey, while you're still here, you said Meta has close matchups. Obv Snake and Diddy are close and in a world without planking falco as well. Icies merely have to wait for you to **** up three times...so give Dojo a break for losing to Hylian lol.idk I thought Dojo and Tyrant were both like tied for number 2 but that same time period Larry 6-0d tyrant and dojo lost to hylian and razor in the same weekend and got 4th. Dojo's slightly better at the mk ditto but not by much. It's pretty close.
oh but um... that shouldn't be happening because mk is so broken and ***** everyone by a lot and should be banned I guess they were just flukes
Too late.?
DEHF(falco) consistently beats the second best MK
Ally(snake) goes 50:50 with the best MK
ADHD beats the best MK more than not at this point
the pro-ban argument thus far has been "lol top players don't count, best of every character gets discarded", I don't see how you can call that a legit standpoint.
He meant 90 points or more each. The players gathered were as follows:90 points or more? Metaknight has 4000. How, exactly, did you arrive at 90?
Name Characters Score
Mew2King Meta Knight 843.38
Ally Snake 711.28
ADHD Diddy Kong 620.38
lain Ice Climbers, King Dedede 369.69
Tyrant Meta Knight 302.78
Dojo Meta Knight 242.63
Seibrik Meta Knight 224.66
DSF Meta Knight 215.75
MikeHAZE Marth 208.56
iStudying Diddy Kong, Ice Climbers 192.62
Ultimate Razer Snake 191.19
Kaos Meta Knight 162.09
Atomsk King Dedede 156.16
DEHF Falco 140.63
Havok Meta Knight, Marth 139.91
Shaya Marth 138.46
Lee Martin Lucario, Meta Knight 136.13
Meep Ice Climbers 135.5
Overswarm Meta Knight 131.06
Gnes Diddy Kong 116.94
Shadow Meta Knight 116.94
Bizkit Snake 112.5
Judge Meta Knight 104.19
Anti Snake, Meta Knight 103.75
Blue Rogue Wario 102.31
Infern Snake 100.69
Kel Meta Knight 94.44
Tibs Diddy Kong 94.43
Anther Pikachu 93.78
Well with Falco its a ruleset issue. In Dehf's region is planking banned or not??
DEHF(falco) consistently beats the second best MK
Ally(snake) goes 50:50 with the best MK
ADHD beats the best MK more than not at this point
the pro-ban argument thus far has been "lol top players don't count, best of every character gets discarded", I don't see how you can call that a legit standpoint.
razer's beaten dojo the past two times they've played, probably a lot of other snake's having success at a more local level too, you actually buy into this idea that "omg meta knight never loses ever"?there are no other Snake's are having this success makes that a bit hard to verify.
Idk if plankings banned in west coast or not, but I know that Ty and Havok don't do it.Well with Falco its a ruleset issue. In Dehf's region is planking banned or not?
As for others you need the data to be repeated more to have conclusive evidence. If Ally is beating M2K about 50% of the time that may indicate an even matchup however the fact that there are no other Snake's are having this success makes that a bit hard to verify. Again I'm not saying that the matchups aren't even just that its very debatable.
Again, 40:60's aren't unwinnable, they never were.razer's beaten dojo the past two times they've played, probably a lot of other snake's having success at a more local level too, you actually buy into this idea that "omg meta knight never loses ever"?
don't know if I'd agree or not but no one good actually thinks MK's worst non-ditto is 60:40 lolWe can all gree though that a character that has 60:40 his advantage as his worst non-mirror matchup is bannable right?
The theoretical lot of Snakes that may or may not be having success at a local matter can't really factor into things. Do you know the overall win/loss ration between razer and Dojo?razer's beaten dojo the past two times they've played, probably a lot of other snake's having success at a more local level too, you actually buy into this idea that "omg meta knight never loses ever"?
Like I said, Smashboards is guilty of down-playing ratios in order to hide how unbalanced the game is.don't know if I'd agree or not but no one good actually thinks MK's worst non-ditto is 60:40 lol
it was posted earlier in this thread, IIRC they're literally 5:5 or razer has a one set leadDo you know the overall win/loss ration between razer and Dojo?