Official Metaknight Discussion

[6Mizu]

LOL!
EDIT: @ M2K
M2K if you played another character and went up against a MK that at the Lvl your at, then you'd be on our side. Because then you would be able to win either. All I'm saying is that I see where the others are coming from.
But anyway M2k's right. Mk doesn't need to be banned.
Only thing I can say to explain it is.....
Lrn the MU.

I'm not saying I know it....but that experience helps, and lots of it.

Just because you revealed how broken he is doesn't mean he isn't broken.

That's because he isn't broken.

 

[ADHD]

I can't believe he might be banned.

 

[laki]

Not sure how relevant this is but do people think brawl has a skill cap? And by that I mean does the good/awefullness of a charcter/matchup limit how much your skill can affect your chances to win?

If you look at smash 64, if you have the attribute Isai, it doesn't really matter who you main, since you're way better than everyone else you're gonna way, apparently it's the same way in SF3 wtih Kuroda.

However if you look at say, magic the gathering, you could be Kai Budde and not win a match against Extended Affinity playing Standard Grixis control because the deck your playing is severely disadvantaged and the way the game works, you only have so much room to outplay your opponents.

If brawl doesn't have a skill cap(or at least a high one) I think if meta knight doesn't get banned, we'd see more Nick Riddles beating Seibriks. Would also explain Ally winning GFs with Captain Falcon. I'm not sure either way.

Also: How do I change the amount of posts I veiw per page.

 

[Turbo Ether]

That's because he isn't broken.

His ability to time people out is definitely broken.

 

[Revven]

This is a stupid debate and will always keep going in circles.

I don't know why people even bother.

 

['V']

This is a stupid debate and will always keep going in circles.

I don't know why people even bother.

True that, but it's fun to watch and it's fun to troll it every once in a while.

 

[etecoon]

This is a stupid debate and will always keep going in circles.

I don't know why people even bother.

cures boredom, this is why I come in here and randomly argue from both sides lol

 

[6Mizu]

I can't believe he might be banned.

Me either bro.
I mean I completely, 100% HATE MK.
But, it's not cause I play ROB.
And I still don't want him banned, because I'm up to the challenge of Lrn-ing the MU instead of being a little *****...and banning him "because I can't win" or that "too many MKs are at tourneys"....etc.

His ability to time people out is definitely broken.

Yes that is.

 

[Delvro]

I can't believe he might be banned.

Because absolutely none of anti-ban's arguments hold up to examination, you resort to calling non-MK mains "lazy", and M2K has resorted to numerous ad-hominem attacks against OS?

 

[HeroMystic]

This is a stupid debate and will always keep going in circles.

I don't know why people even bother.

Cause it brings out all the cool people.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

I was already dominating with DDD so you can't even say that. I'm a good player because of Melee. Most of you guys want him banned because you can't win how it is, so you will vote to ban him to do better yourselves. There is no reason for him to be gone except for people's greed which is why the "majority rules" vote is stupid. This community sucks. I have lost all respect for this community if that is what happens.

Why would people want him banned out of greed? Snake mains would still have DDD/maybe falco to deal with, diddy mains would still have snake/peach/luigi to deal with, DDD mains would still have diddy/falco/ics mains to deal with, Marth mains would still have snake/rob/DDD to deal with, Falco mains would still have marth/diddy/ ICs to deal with.


TO ALL THOSE GREEDY PEOPLE OUT THERE, DO YOUR SELFS A FAVOR AND SWITCH TO MK!!

 

[etecoon]

Because absolutely none of anti-ban's arguments hold up to examination, you resort to calling non-MK mains "lazy", and M2K has resorted to numerous ad-hominem attacks against OS?

too bad you need a 2/3rds majority to ban him, not 2/3rds of the general public either, 2/3rds of a bunch of meta knight mains basically. good ****ing luck with that : )

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Also: How do I change the amount of posts I veiw per page.

Go to User CP and edit options.

 

[Mew2King]

Almost everyone who tried to switch to MK got 3 stocked and did better with their normal main. Shadow's Wario took me to last stock in close games both matches at pound4, but in the MK Ditto he got 3 stocked. I think MK has plenty of matchups that are around even, and I have not been impressed with any other MKs. This is a big reason I think he is overrated

 

[Tien2500]

The argument "get better" is simply ridiculous. This assumes that MK mains are stagnant and have no desire or ability to get any better themselves. You may be able to learn how to deal with some of MK's strategies but he is a more versatile character and will be able to adapt to the new strategy you use against him.

Not saying he should be banned. Just saying getting better doesn't work if they do too.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

You heard it here first folks:

Metaknight is only good because of Mew2King.



...who switched to him from Dedede and copied off of Forte.

This a low blow even for you.

edit: How many people of other mains actually personally train others? I don't know of any other than M2K that trained others at all.

 

[swordgard]

Why metaknight should not get banned:

I will follow OS's thoughts as to why MK should get banned and explain to you why he should not.

1st: As OS pointed out, Metaknight is the best character in the game.
2nd: He is arguably one of the easiest characters to pickup at pro level(metaknight doesn't make you pro, but he is easy to pickup if you have already a high skill level).
3rd: Due to this, many top players are switching from their mains to metaknight.
4th: This created an army of metaknights placing very high.


I hope everyone agrees with me so far.

Now here is the counterpoint:
Metaknight has an army of top players behind him, while diddy and snake do not have that not because they are totally outclassed, but rather because top players are switching to the BEST character in the game. If you find your main not to be good enough, why not switch for the best character in the game? This makes it so that Diddy and Snake only have a couple of top snake and diddy players, not because they aren't as good, but because top players are not switching to them. They simply have a normal character progression, which means youl only get a few pros with these 2 characters. This happens with every game, most top players who feel are limited by their character will flock to the best one, not the 2nd or 3rd.

This alone makes it so that Metaknight's metagame evolves at a much faster rate than any others, that coupled with the fact that M2K has pretty much taught everyone in NJ how to play MK. On the other hand, you have 2 characters, Snake and Diddy, that took the last 4 nationals over Metaknight, despite not having an army of players behind them. Not having an army of snake/diddys doesn't show that the character sucks, quite the opposite, it means that despite everything MK has going for him, with an army of players, a rapidly evolving metagame and the best tools in the game, he has not won a single national in over 8 months or so. Maybe Metaknight just is not as good as we all thought he was and is simply being picked up because he is the best character in the game? If a hundred pros switched to metaknight, and out of the remaining 20 pros 2 of them placed top 3 even outplacing the best MK, then maybe we have to rethink about whether we should ban MK or not.

Snake and Diddy do not have an army of players behind them, yet win nationals. MK does and yet doesn't win nationals. The best MK even lost by a lot to ADHD, with no other MK coming even close to beating him at pound4.


OS, if your going to say its just 2 players, il tell you that its 2 players out of probably the 8 good snake/diddy players because they don't get lots of people switching to them. I can tell you however that out of the gazillion of MKs out there, only M2K beat allys snake in a bo3 at pound 4 and none beat ADHD's diddy. IMO, statistically speaking, 25% of the top diddy/snake players getting top 3 at pound 4 is better than the 2~% MK getting top 3 at pound 4.

 

[AllyKnight]

....He did the last time we talked about this. And we didn't. M2K had only lost to Ally ever, and his 2nd loss to Ally was at Genesis if I recall correctly.

I beat M2K all in sets count, at Apex ,(1-0), Genesis (2-1), Some Michigan tourney (Lolis1 2-1)6
Viridian City 6 (2-0), me and m2k goes 50 50 now since either of us will win the set by A LIL margin.

Almost everyone who tried to switch to MK got 3 stocked and did better with their normal main. Shadow's Wario took me to last stock in close games both matches at pound4, but in the MK Ditto he got 3 stocked. I think MK has plenty of matchups that are around even, and I have not been impressed with any other MKs. This is a big reason I think he is overrated

That was Malcolm's Wario.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Shadow is originally an MK main and picked up Wario. He's played MK since release.

 

[6Mizu]

Almost everyone who tried to switch to MK got 3 stocked and did better with their normal main. Shadow's Wario took me to last stock in close games both matches at pound4, but in the MK Ditto he got 3 stocked. I think MK has plenty of matchups that are around even, and I have not been impressed with any other MKs. This is a big reason I think he is overrated

^
Another great reason, which shows MK doesn't need ban. I mean there aer multiple MU that are at least even or close. Diddy, Snake, and some other are pretty good against MK.
All we need to do is learn the MU.
As soon as someone else has learned the MU as well as ADHD and Ally....except with another character, everyone will jump at that character's MU and say it's even. When really it's all about experience with the MU. Just cause Ally and some other snakes do well with the MU doesn't make that good for all other snakes. Same goes for ADHD and other Diddys.

 

[Tien2500]

OS, if your going to say its just 2 players, il tell you that its 2 players out of probably the 8 good snake/diddy players because they don't get lots of people switching to them. I can tell you however that out of the gazillion of MKs out there, only M2K beat allys snake in a bo3 at pound 4 and none beat ADHD's diddy. IMO, statistically speaking, 25% of the top diddy/snake players getting top 3 at pound 4 is better than the 2~% MK getting top 3 at pound 4.

I don't think it works like that. If there are 80 MK players the top 8 was all MKs then by your logic you would say "see only 10% of top MKs are placing. He's not that good."

 

[swordgard]

I don't think it works like that. If there are 80 MK players the top 8 was all MKs then by your logic you would say "see only 10% of top MKs are placing. He's not that good."

Ok, maybe i expressed myself bad, point is, out of 8 snake/diddy players, 2 got top 3, and out of the gazillion MKs, only 1 beat ally, none beat adhd. Step it up MK?

 

[6Mizu]

Why metaknight should not get banned:

I will follow OS's thoughts as to why MK should get banned and explain to you why he should not.

1st: As OS pointed out, Metaknight is the best character in the game.
2nd: He is arguably one of the easiest characters to pickup at pro level(metaknight doesn't make you pro, but he is easy to pickup if you have already a high skill level).
3rd: Due to this, many top players are switching from their mains to metaknight.
4th: This created an army of metaknights placing very high.


I hope everyone agrees with me so far.

Now here is the counterpoint:
Metaknight has an army of top players behind him, while diddy and snake do not have that not because they are totally outclassed, but rather because top players are switching to the BEST character in the game. If you find your main not to be good enough, why not switch for the best character in the game? This makes it so that Diddy and Snake only have a couple of top snake and diddy players, not because they aren't as good, but because top players are not switching to them. They simply have a normal character progression, which means youl only get a few pros with these 2 characters. This happens with every game, most top players who feel are limited by their character will flock to the best one, not the 2nd or 3rd.

This alone makes it so that Metaknight's metagame evolves at a much faster rate than any others, that coupled with the fact that M2K has pretty much taught everyone in NJ how to play MK. On the other hand, you have 2 characters, Snake and Diddy, that took the last 4 nationals over Metaknight, despite not having an army of players behind them. Not having an army of snake/diddys doesn't show that the character sucks, quite the opposite, it means that despite everything MK has going for him, with an army of players, a rapidly evolving metagame and the best tools in the game, he has not won a single national in over 8 months or so. Maybe Metaknight just is not as good as we all thought he was and is simply being picked up because he is the best character in the game? If a hundred pros switched to metaknight, and out of the remaining 20 pros 2 of them placed top 3 even outplacing the best MK, then maybe we have to rethink about whether we should ban MK or not.

Snake and Diddy do not have an army of players behind them, yet win nationals. MK does and yet doesn't win nationals. The best MK even lost by a lot to ADHD, with no other MK coming even close to beating him at pound4.


OS, if your going to say its just 2 players, il tell you that its 2 players out of probably the 8 good snake/diddy players because they don't get lots of people switching to them. I can tell you however that out of the gazillion of MKs out there, only M2K beat allys snake in a bo3 at pound 4 and none beat ADHD's diddy. IMO, statistically speaking, 25% of the top diddy/snake players getting top 3 at pound 4 is better than the 2~% MK getting top 3 at pound 4.

Almost everyone who tried to switch to MK got 3 stocked and did better with their normal main. Shadow's Wario took me to last stock in close games both matches at pound4, but in the MK Ditto he got 3 stocked. I think MK has plenty of matchups that are around even, and I have not been impressed with any other MKs. This is a big reason I think he is overrated

^
Another great reason, which shows MK doesn't need ban. I mean there aer multiple MU that are at least even or close. Diddy, Snake, and some other are pretty good against MK.
All we need to do is learn the MU.
As soon as someone else has learned the MU as well as ADHD and Ally....except with another character, everyone will jump at that character's MU and say it's even. When really it's all about experience with the MU. Just cause Ally and some other snakes do well with the MU doesn't make that good for all other snakes. Same goes for ADHD and other Diddys.

So these are 3 views on why MK should not be banned.
Now....whattcha got people think "mk should be banned".

Mk isn't as broken as he seems. Just because we see that M2K's MK is broken doesn't make MK unbeatable. We all need to become the ADHDs and Ally's of the MK MU.

 

[Tien2500]

Ok, maybe i expressed myself bad, point is, out of 8 snake/diddy players, 2 got top 3, and out of the gazillion MKs, only 1 beat ally, none beat adhd. Step it up MK?

Ok I get that but by the same token couldn't you say out of 8 Snake/Diddy's (not to mention every other player) six were unable to get by MK players? And also IF Snake/Diddy are the only viable characters in an MK metagame then MK may be guilty of overcentralizing the whole game.

 

[Flayl]

6Mizu, we don't need you to quote repeatedly something that's been posted on the same page. Stop it.

Ok, maybe i expressed myself bad, point is, out of 8 snake/diddy players, 2 got top 3, and out of the gazillion MKs, only 1 beat ally, none beat adhd. Step it up MK?

You're pointing out Ally and ADHD as statistical outliers, just like M2K is when it comes to MK.

 

[swordgard]

6Mizu, we don't need you to quote repeatedly something that's been posted on the same page. Stop it.


You're pointing out Ally and ADHD as statistical outliers, just like M2K is when it comes to MK.

I explained why they arent outliers, its just MK gets a lot of people switching to him, which means that they are bound to have a lot of pros placing high with MK. Say every top player switched to snake, guess what, youd see a lot of snakes in top 8. Weird how skills carry on like that isn't it?

 

[Mew2King]

Larry gets 1st in the midwest over Tyrant usually (DEHF the Falco). Tyrant's most likely the 2nd best MK, and he knows the matchup fine. How is MK this "god character" everyone speaks about.

oh yeah i forgot; he's popular

 

[Flayl]

I explained why they arent outliers, its just MK gets a lot of people switching to him, which means that they are bound to have a lot of pros placing high with MK. Say every top player switched to snake, guess what, youd see a lot of snakes in top 8. Weird how skills carry on like that isn't it?

But they haven't? That's the important point. Why switch to MK in a metagame saturated with MK's who are already better than you at dittos.

Unless it turns out you have a better chance of winning MK dittos than you do with a less popular character, even if everybody knows the matchup to death.

 

[popsofctown]

Larry gets 1st in the midwest over Tyrant usually (DEHF the Falco). Tyrant's most likely the 2nd best MK, and he knows the matchup fine. How is MK this "god character" everyone speaks about.

oh yeah i forgot; he's popular

Anecdotal evidence isn't evidence.

Though to be fair, that needs to be said to LOTS of posts in this thread.

 

[6Mizu]

6Mizu, we don't need you to quote repeatedly something that's been posted on the same page. Stop it.


You're pointing out Ally and ADHD as statistical outliers, just like M2K is when it comes to MK.

I explained why they arent outliers, its just MK gets a lot of people switching to him, which means that they are bound to have a lot of pros placing high with MK. Say every top player switched to snake, guess what, youd see a lot of snakes in top 8. Weird how skills carry on like that isn't it?

Exactly. TY Swordgard.
Also, why would I Flayl.
If it's true it shouldn't matter. We need to fight multiple MKs...and get better. It would be the same as a Wario player saying that Peach is broken...when they simply need to learn the MU. (and don't take that seriously it's just an example). >.>

 

[Gnes]

I explained why they arent outliers, its just MK gets a lot of people switching to him, which means that they are bound to have a lot of pros placing high with MK. Say every top player switched to snake, guess what, youd see a lot of snakes in top 8. Weird how skills carry on like that isn't it?

I doubt it...snake has counters that are pretty viable in a non-mk environment such as D3. If players switched to snake, i doubt that would be the outcome. There would be a hell of alot less diddy's though.

 

[HeroMystic]

inb4PeachArmy

****, ninja'd.

 

[Tien2500]

Exactly. TY Swordgard.
Also, why would I Flayl.
If it's true it shouldn't matter. We need to fight multiple MKs...and get better. It would be the same as a Wario player saying that Peach is broken...when they simply need to learn the MU. (and don't take that seriously it's just an example). >.>

Or on the off chance the Wario mains actually face a significant amount of peach players they could counterpick her.

 

[RDK]

The argument "get better" is simply ridiculous. This assumes that MK mains are stagnant and have no desire or ability to get any better themselves. You may be able to learn how to deal with some of MK's strategies but he is a more versatile character and will be able to adapt to the new strategy you use against him.

Not saying he should be banned. Just saying getting better doesn't work if they do too.

This is a competitive community folks.

Getting better is the theme.

Also, do some of you not understand the concept of a "best character"? Because it seems like you're really not even arguing against MK; you're arguing against a game element that is fundamental to literally all competitive fighters.

 

[6Mizu]

I explained why they arent outliers, its just MK gets a lot of people switching to him, which means that they are bound to have a lot of pros placing high with MK. Say every top player switched to snake, guess what, youd see a lot of snakes in top 8. Weird how skills carry on like that isn't it?

But they haven't? That's the important point. Why switch to MK in a metagame saturated with MK's who are already better than you at dittos.

Unless it turns out you have a better chance of winning MK dittos than you do with a less popular character, even if everybody knows the matchup to death.

I doubt it...snake has counters that are pretty viable in a non-mk environment such as D3. If players switched to snake, i doubt that would be the outcome. There would be a hell of alot less diddy's though.

Don't think Sword was being "serious". I think he was giving an example, and trying to point out why it's not an "outliner".

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

M2k -- which matchups are even? I've heard varying opinions on this:

Falco -- even, kinda, but artifically inflated due to planking/circling rules
Snake -- loses at least slightly
Diddy -- to be seen, but maybe even
C. Falcon -- yeah, this is a new fad.
Jigglypuff -- yeah, i've heard this and i lol at it.
ZSS -- Nick Riddle, Seibrik, and the artist formally known as SNAKEEE all say this is around even.
Ness -- perhaps not even, but not too bad.

Personally I don't really think any of these are even, and there may be more... just curious what you think about it.

 

[Judo777]

This logic is flawed.

If larry is beating tyrant and the falco MK matchup is in MKs favor then MK should be winning most of the time if they are of equal skill. This isnt the case so the players obviosuly are not of equal skill.

Also if M2K really is putting in all this time to train to beat Snake or w/e then why is Ally still winning? The matchup is even or slightly in MKs favor so obviosuly there is either a skill difference or ally is putting in just as much or more time than you in playing.

Lastly M2K i am not even remotely debating ur skill cause i know u are arguably the best player in the world(Ally and ADHD would be possible other choices) but you said u beat that one guys wario (dont remember who you said) but 3 stocked his MK. Thats partly because you know the MK ditto really freaking well. You may know the wario matchup but you dont know it near as much as the MK matchup because thats who u use.

 

[Tien2500]

This is a competitive community folks.

Getting better is the theme.

Also, do some of you not understand the concept of a "best character"? Because it seems like you're really not even arguing against MK; you're arguing against a game element that is fundamental to literally all competitive fighters.

Of course getting better would help but no matter how much better you get MK will still have better options and all. No matter how much better you get you'll be at a disadvantage against MK no matter what character you use.

Obviously all fighting games do have a best character but there are two questions. The first is how much better than the rest of the cast is this character. The second is does this character warp the metagame to the point where it is no longer desirable to play.

 

[swordgard]

Don't think Sword was being "serious". I think he was giving an example, and trying to point out why it's not an "outliner".

Its the exact same reason sagat is the most played character in sf4, even if technically he has slightly losing matchups i believe(45:55).

 

[Flayl]

This is a competitive community folks.

Getting better is the theme.

Also, do some of you not understand the concept of a "best character"? Because it seems like you're really not even arguing against MK; you're arguing against a game element that is fundamental to literally all competitive fighters.

Legitimate best characters in other games have even matchups.

I guess my point really is MK doesn't have even matchups.

And in fact the whole of Smashboards is guilty of down-playing ratios. (55:45 should become either 50:50 or 60:40, 60:40 should become 70:30 and 70:30 should become 80:20).

If Falco, Diddy, Snake and IC's were only at a 45:55 disadvantage, wouldn't we see a lot more of them beating the top MK's?