Official Metaknight Discussion

[Shaya]

Brawl entrant numbers (throughout the worrrrld) are definitely dropping.

Proving that's a correlation with MK or not isn't going to be easy .
Come Crow, show me your moves.

 

[Browny]

I got a new theory... MK is a weak viscous damper in a system affected by gravity. The system amplitude (tournament attendance) will forever decrease due to the nature of brawl and lack of staying power (gravity). MK has the potential to accelerate this rate, since the more players at a tournament, the more metaknights, the more MK's one will have to play through to advance to the top of the bracket, thus people quitting because of MK. This is of course helped by the fact that people will CP mk to beat mk. This rate decreases as the number of entrants decreases.

Suddenly removing MK could remove constraints holding people back from entering tourneys, resulting in a sudden increase in numbers, however it will still decrease due to brawls nature (gravity). Attendance will be up and down, some may see higher than ever, but the average will always decrease

lol nerdtalk

 

[-Ran]

Life would be easier if we would be allowed to do a datamine poll on the forum that would ask ten or so questions through an external polling database. Such questions as:

1) How many events do you attend a year?
2) What is the average entry fee you pay for a tournament?
3) Has MK legality ever made you stop playing Brawl for an extended period of time? If so, for how long?
4) Does the MK legality prevent you from going to Out of City/State tournaments?
5) Do you think that a temporary ban of MK would be warranted? If so, for how long?
6) How many people do you know that have quit Brawl due to MK being legal?
7) Do you believe that MK being banned would create a healthier Meta-game?
8) Have you learned Meta Knight to specifically play against Meta Knights?
9) Are you Power Ranked in your state?
10) Who do you main?
11) Would you attend more tournaments if MK was banned nationally?
12) Should Meta Knight be banned?


Unfortunately, any thread that would create a link of these questions, even if it is only for discovery purposes, would instantly be locked by the moderation team. This information would provide us with a clear pulse of what the community currently thinks of the Meta Knight situation, while providing us answers as to why they are answering a particular way.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I tried that, and it's going to run into a lot of self-selection bias.

 

[Mr-R]

wth was tyrants marth vs ally recorded?

i'd love to see that

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Brawl entrant numbers (throughout the worrrrld) are definitely dropping.

They're actually rising in Europe.

 

[swordgard]

They're actually rising in Europe.

Where?

I only know of 2 continents, East Coast and West Coast. Where is this ''europe'' you speak of?

 

[Mota]

Snake may or may not be the top character with MK gone. If I were organizing betting, I'd put the odds that he'd come on top higher than that of any other character. But it is clear that his level of domination, if it happened at all, wouldn't be anywhere near that MK has been enjoying.

Consider the beginning of Brawl's metagame. Snake WAS on top. But with him in everyone's crosshairs, he fell and eventually was surpassed by MK. Since then, the target has been on MK... who's never really fallen. Put the target on Snake once again, and...

For a theorycrafted explaination for why one can get better at the Snake matchup more easily than at the Meta Knight one, consider what Snake does versus what Meta Knight does. Meta Knight wins with long range, high mobility, and great attack speed. He shuts other characters' options down. Snake, on the other hand, pumps out a series of traps. He tries to overload your brain with too many variables to keep track of until you miss something and take a hit.

I would venture to say that there is much more that can be done to negate the effectiveness of traps with experience than to negate the effects of your opposing character's moves and motions being superior your own.

Makes sense I suppose.

 

[Akaku94]

Life would be easier if we would be allowed to do a datamine poll on the forum that would ask ten or so questions through an external polling database. Such questions as:

1) How many events do you attend a year?
2) What is the average entry fee you pay for a tournament?
3) Has MK legality ever made you stop playing Brawl for an extended period of time? If so, for how long?
4) Does the MK legality prevent you from going to Out of City/State tournaments?
5) Do you think that a temporary ban of MK would be warranted? If so, for how long?
6) How many people do you know that have quit Brawl due to MK being legal?
7) Do you believe that MK being banned would create a healthier Meta-game?
8) Have you learned Meta Knight to specifically play against Meta Knights?
9) Are you Power Ranked in your state?
10) Who do you main?
11) Would you attend more tournaments if MK was banned nationally?
12) Should Meta Knight be banned?


Unfortunately, any thread that would create a link of these questions, even if it is only for discovery purposes, would instantly be locked by the moderation team. This information would provide us with a clear pulse of what the community currently thinks of the Meta Knight situation, while providing us answers as to why they are answering a particular way.

I agree. I think we could have a series of atual polls that do the job, though. For example, one that asks how many tournaments you go to a year (None, -5, 5-10, 10-20, 20+, or something to that extent), one that asks what your basic entry fee is, and so on, all as one survey, so that the Data is crunchable (I.E. Is there a corrolation between people who go to more then 20 Tournys a year and people who want MK Banned?). It would take a while to set up, but it would probably give us a definitive answer as to the community's opinion.

 

[Kitamerby]

They're actually rising in Europe.

What the **** is a europe

 

[volume]

rofl @ bpc acting as if he knows whether the scene is declining or not. the dude lives in the middle of nowhere germany and plays with computers and planks them.

wasnt planking originaly a meta knight stratagy?

 

[volume]

I lol'd at the last sentences so imma let you have it.

and solecalibur shut the **** up idiot i just stated my opinion if you dont like it hop off my nuts you nobdody..

who the **** names themself after a game?

GUYS CALL ME TEKKEN 6.

^ random **** =/ names have nothing to do with mk sorry anti but were not making fun of your name and say **** like "call me *insert name here*"

 

[Akaku94]

while we're rofl@everything we don't like...

rofl @ people taking pottyjokes seriously

Wow! This is so much fun! Not!

Come on, guys, how about everyone grow up and actually try having an intelligent discussion. We're arguing like little kids:

Pro-ban: "I already showed you're wrong!"
Anti-ban: "Did not!"
Pro-ban: "Did too!"
Anti-ban: "Did not!"
Pro-ban: "Did too!"
Anti-ban: "Did not!"
Pro-ban: "Did too!"
Anti-ban: "Did not!"
Pro-ban: "Did too!"
Anti-ban: "haha! I'm laughing at you because you're stupid!"
Pro-ban: "Oh yeah? We'll I'm laughing at you thinking I'm stupid!"
Anti-ban: "You're a baby!"
And so on... FOR SEVEN STRAIGHT PAGES!!!

You see where this is going? Sheesh, people, let's try speaking in complete sentences and without any "rofl-ing." Or we can continue and get nothing done... what do you guys think?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

^ random **** =/ names have nothing to do with mk sorry anti but were not making fun of your name and say **** like "call me *insert name here*"

He's Anti... logic and reason.

 

[Akaku94]

Yeah, sure guys, keep up the flaming and the nonsense... that's a great way to prove that Meta Knight should be banned...

 

[Mota]

It's already been proven MK needs a ban.

Not much else to do but flame and spout nonsense.

 

[Akaku94]

Then how about someone make a poll? If we're so sure he's bannable, why hasn't he been banned yet?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Then how about someone make a poll? If we're so sure he's bannable, why hasn't he been banned yet?

Because he isn't bannable. He's clearly a character who deserves to be banned, but he isn't bannable.

 

[Akaku94]

What's the difference?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

A bunch of players use him, and many of the important TOs and most of the top players agree that he should not be banned (many because they main him).

 

[fkacyan]

while we're rofl@everything we don't like...

rofl @ people taking pottyjokes seriously

Wow! This is so much fun! Not!

Come on, guys, how about everyone grow up and actually try having an intelligent discussion. We're arguing like little kids:

Pro-ban: "I already showed you're wrong!"
Anti-ban: "Did not!"
Pro-ban: "Did too!"
Anti-ban: "Did not!"
Pro-ban: "Did too!"
Anti-ban: "Did not!"
Pro-ban: "Did too!"
Anti-ban: "Did not!"
Pro-ban: "Did too!"
Anti-ban: "haha! I'm laughing at you because you're stupid!"
Pro-ban: "Oh yeah? We'll I'm laughing at you thinking I'm stupid!"
Anti-ban: "You're a baby!"
And so on... FOR SEVEN STRAIGHT PAGES!!!

You see where this is going? Sheesh, people, let's try speaking in complete sentences and without any "rofl-ing." Or we can continue and get nothing done... what do you guys think?

I'll give you a more accurate version of the argument:

PRO: We want MK banned!
ANTI: We don't!
PRO: We have evidence!
ANTI: Show it then!
PRO: *Shows evidence*
ANTI: What does this show?
PRO: He should be banned!
ANTI: All we see is that he's dominant, and we're OK with this.
PRO: BUT BUT FINE WE'LL MAKE HIM BROKEN
ANTI: OK have fun with that
PRO: SEE LOOK HIS PLANKING IS UNBEATABLE
ANTI: OK LGL that **** then
PRO: OK BUT THEN SCROOGING
ANTI: You've only proven this to be a problem in theory.
PRO: BUT YOU ADMIT WE HAVE A POINT
ANTI: Sure, whatever, temp ban away, but you're not getting a straight ban because that would be ********
PRO: BUT HE IS BANNABLE
GO TO START, REPEAT AD NAUSEUM
etc.

That is, more or less, how the argument goes, with a lot of "Well these people beat him," followed by "OUTLIERS OMG," follow in turn by "THE ENTIRE POINT OF TOURNEYS IS TESTING FOR THE GREATEST OUTLIERS." Well, that last one should be the response, but whatever. You guys get the idea.

Nothing useful has been accomplished here for weeks. We are the epitome of the Penny Arcade comic here:

 

[Crow!]

The BBR is set up so as to be basically incapable of banning MK. Too many of the people who have control of the situation play as MK themselves, and, as is public knowledge, the policy has been that passage of a large scale change by the BBR requires a 66-33 majority. So to amuse myself I did a quick estimate...

I matched up the active BBR members to the player list that have scored points in tournaments playing as Meta Knight (aside from OS, of course) to identify the obvious anti-ban shoo-ins. I then checked what the voting ratio would have to be among the remaining BBR members to counteract that.

So, my estimate: for the BBR to do anything, overall pro-ban sentiment needs to exceed 74:26.

Take a guess as to whether the BBR new member acceptances would ever allow the newcomers to consist of pro-ban players at excess of a 3-1 ratio.

 

[Omni]

Read over the last few pages.

Stay on topic, stop flaming/trolling, and do not post for the sake of +1 count. There will be several mods keeping an eye on this thread and anyone continuing to do the above will be infracted harshly without warning.

If necessary the thread will be closed down. Keep it civil, appropriate, and on topic people.

 

[Akaku94]

So basically, it's hopeless... The longer we debate, the more people swith to MK, and there's no way the MK masses will agree to ban him...

 

[Juushichi]

Welcome to this thread circa 2008, Akaku. Glad to have you on board.

Anyway, Crow. What do you propose we do about that, then? Is there anything to do at this point?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Ah, so you're comfortable with a character who is ridiculously overdominant? EDIT: Quad ninja'd. This is @Thio.

Also, what will happen:
-More and more people switch to MK, others quit because they don't want to
-Eventually it's just MKs and maybe Ally/ADHD/the rare (1/10) non-MK character
-Banning MK at that point becomes pointless
-MKs stop playing because the game has become MK dittos

What will happen if a ban is enacted:
-TOs ignore ban
-See above

 

[Turbo Ether]

Let me summarize why this debate still persists.

- MK has the best moveset, recovery, ledgeguarding and edgeguarding in the game. This also contributes to him being exceptionally dangerous on counterpick stages. This is all fine, but this on top of his other traits are what have caused an uproar.
- IDC: Method #1 of making the game unplayable
- Planking: Method #2 of making the game unplayable.
- Scrooging: Method #3 of making the game unplayable.

So, at this point it's a just matter of banning the character vs limiting the character. This is controversial, because in the competitive fighting game scene, broken characters have always been dealt with by banning them, not by nerfing their strategies with arbitrary rules.

 

[Crow!]

Anyway, Crow. What do you propose we do about that, then? Is there anything to do at this point?

Experimenting with rulesets is always a good thing. Think of the Brawl tournament scene from an economic standpoint: the optimum performance of the economy in general can only happen if there is competition among different products, different suppliers, and different customers. As long as this competition is in place, free market principles show that the market will optimize itself automatically. But the evolution which drives the free market only works if there are choices for each customer and supplier to make!

One of the issues right now is that there are precious few respectable tournaments which run rulesets other than minor tweaks of the basic "S Tier" tourney.

I suggest trying to host tourneys wherein low tier, mid tier, and even (here's where the fun begins!) high tier competitions are the main event. Anyone who has the initiative to be a TO can be a TO. Whoever's reading this right now, consider doing it yourself! And whatever your ruleset is, make it different from what's already available in the area. Let the customers, that is, the players, decide what ruleset constitutes the best product to buy. (Or, if they're equally good, then your area gets 2x as many tourneys, with some extra variety thrown in to boot. Sounds like a win situation to me.)

I also suggest trying some radically different tournament formats. Expect me to publicly announce one such experimental ruleset in the near future. I've been fiddling with it, and the people I've revealed it to so far have had mostly good reactions to it. So I'll just make sure I've hammered out all the details I can (if I can, I want to write a program simulate strategies to make sure nothing's broken), then it'll be out of the bag.

 

[etecoon]

Take a guess as to whether the BBR new member acceptances would ever allow the newcomers to consist of pro-ban players at excess of a 3-1 ratio.

out of curiosity who is in charge of that? is it a group thing?

Ah, so you're comfortable with a character who is ridiculously overdominant?

ridiculously is subjective, as is over. temp ban would be a good idea so that everyone could have a real idea of which they would actually prefer instead of assuming but your arguments and way of stating your opinions as fact are probably detrimental to your cause as it is

 

[Akaku94]

I'm looking forward to Crow's ruleset... it sounds promising. I think it would be great to have low-tier only tournaments or mid-tier only, even high-tier (but not MK) only, and maybe just for kicks, and as a warning of what may be to come, a top-tier only tournament now and then (That's right, nothing but MK dittos... maybe it would be best to not have money on the line for that one...). I bet it would be a great idea to have several tournaments in one place at once, each for a different level of the tier, with the top 8 from each going for a grand prize in a full tourny with all tiers (except MK...)

Can't wait, Crow!

 

[Orion*]

Too many of the people who have control of the situation play as MK themselves

lets not forget the amount of pro banners that main like. rob or mario or something lmfao and they are just whining like babies

 

[Crow!]

Too many of the people who have control of the situation play as MK themselves

lets not forget the amount of pro banners that main like. rob or mario or something lmfao and they are just whining like babies

In the BBR, Orion.

There are precious few low tier mains there (atm I can't think of any active ones other than myself...), and there are not particularly many mid tiers, either. (Peach, though, gets a bizarrely large amount of represenation.)

 

[hotgarbage]

In regard to the tournament attendance discussion:

Based off ankoku's data; so it's not going to be 100% accurate (not every tournament is in there) but at the very least the overall trend should be solid. Also yeah I haven't bothered to update as of recent; should probably get on that.

Other than the overall decline in attendance something I've always found curious is the massive post-December bump and the equally massive decline that follows. Could this be, at least in part, due to an influx of new players? If that is indeed the case then it's pretty safe to say that brawl's "new player retention rate" is ****ing terrible :I.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

lets not forget the amount of pro banners that main like. rob or mario or something lmfao and they are just whining like babies

lol yeah, it's just like all the Falco mains who want super strict ledge grab limits because they main Falco. I seriously hate that selfishness, it's ridiculous.

 

[etecoon]

not much of a surprise, we saw the exact same thing happen when brawl first came out

oh there's a new smash bros game out this is pretty cool

-two months later-

EEEEEEEFFFF that goin back to melee

 

[Armada]

EPsilon933: Yeah that´s true.

 

[bigbucks]

Whats with all the melee people trolling this thread? >.>

 

[Akaku94]

I think someone posted a link here from one of the Melee boards to make a point, and now the obvious melee trolls are obvious.

0_o

 

[swordgard]

I think not. Even if I'm not as good as you, I've put enough effort into my characters to know them a bit.

When in the first WF set within the first 20 seconds Tyrant throws you offstage then lets you back on without even attempting to nair or dair through your recovery, its kinda bad.


Ally is right, show up to nationals.

 

[Turbo Ether]

When in the first WF set within the first 20 seconds Tyrant throws you offstage then lets you back on without even attempting to nair or dair through your recovery, its kinda bad.


Ally is right, show up to nationals.

Me and Orion were watching TKD vs Tyrant on his laptop and we facepalmed at a lot of the decisions that were being made.