Official Metaknight Discussion

[DMG]

Yoshi has a bunch of 6:4's against him

 

[giuocob]

Just to be sure, you're saying the disproven slippery slope fallacy might be proven true by some other character in the absence of MK, right?

Sorry about the abrupt question, but all this conversating is confusing me a bit, and I wanna make sure I'm still on track. ^^;

Pretty much. I'm not saying I believe that's what's going to happen (because I don't), I'm giving a possible scenario in which a temp ban would result in MK remaining legal.

 

[Jack Kieser]

I'm calling it: by the time this thread is locked, at least 1/5th of all pages will be quotations from "Metaknight Da Bess".

 

[OverLade]

Snake/Falco/other characters **** Yoshi.

 

[Delta-cod]

I thought yoshi wasn't even that bad against MK.

Eh, don't check the boards for stuff, it's all stupidly outdated. I personally feel the MU varies significantly depending on level of play, coming to rest at a slight MK advantage at highest levels. Feels like a lot of baiting to me, when I play it.

yoshi would be mid-tier if MK was gone. his only bad match up is marth

Stop talking about characters you know nothing of.

Wait whaaaat? What does yoshi's matchup spread look like...

He does alright against most top tiers, with only one or two get ***** MUs in Marth and Wolf.

Yoshi has a bunch of 6:4's against him

That too.

Edit: Halberd, Snake doesn't **** Yoshi. >_>''

 

[pure_awesome]

Example of temp ban:

During the period of July 1st, 2010, to January 1st, 2011 the use of Metaknight in National or Major Regional tournaments will be banned. During this time, the 40 ledge grab limit rule shall be lifted and the following stages will be re-instated as counterpicks-

(List of stages, if any.)

On January 1st, 2011, the ban on Metaknight will be lifted and the 40 ledge grab limit rule, as well as the re-instated stages, shall be implemented as before. There will then be no further alterations to the official BBR ruleset concerning Metaknight's banning. On April 1st, official discussion will be re-opened, where we may compare three major differences in metagames, being...

1- Character Variety in tournaments
2- Top Players' placing in tournaments
3- Possible Replacements - Is there anything that could potentially replace Metaknight in an MK-less metagame, in terms of overcentralization or dominance?

On May 1st, the BBR will poll it's members, in which either side will need a 2/3rds majority. If neither side reaches a 2/3rds majority by June 1st, discussion will continue for another two weeks and then another poll will be taken on requiring 2/3rds. If neither side reaches a 2/3rd majority in this poll, discussion will continue for another month, and a final poll will be made, this time including BBR members and other noteworthy members of the community. In this poll a 2/3rds majority will not be needed.

During this time, no changes to the tier list will be made, in order not to alter anyone's perception of the metagame.

From the date that a decision is reached via poll, a full year must pass before any changes to Metaknight's status are made.




That's an example of how I would draw it up. It gives plenty of time for MK mains to adapt to new characters (most know how to play one or two others to a certain degree of proficiency anyway) and give the new, MK-less metagame time to develop. Re-implementing him afterwards for four months gives time for those who wish to return to Metaknight in tournament play to do so and gives them plenty of time to catch up, while simultaneously giving us time to see if the progressed metagame is any better at dealing with Metaknight.


What's wrong with implementing something like this? Obviously it needs to be re-worked a bit, but something similar?







EDIT: For the record, I personally think that with MK gone, IC's infinites would become a problem, and a rule would be needed to limit those (making one is easy, contrary to what some believe). But that's just my personal opinion and it could likely be attributed to my being a Falco main who plays swordgard.

 

[Kaffei]

I'm calling it: by the time this thread is locked, at least 1/5th of all pages will be quotations from "Metaknight Da Bess".

"cause i'm so patient and i wait for you"

 

[Ripple]

Yoshi has a bunch of 6:4's against him

true. I didn't say top tier or high tier. I said mid.

yoshi match up toatal on rajam's chart is actually very very good considering where he is on the tier list

 

[Blacknight99923]

Says who? If we do a 6 month temp ban, and we realize for example that Snake's nade camping completely overpowers every other character, I guarantee that MK will be unbanned. Or maybe we'll ban Snake too and go from there. Or maybe we'll all stop playing this broken game.

I could be wrong but

snake goes even or loses to (bar MK) iirc
snake (well technically player 4 has the advantedge)
diddy
marth
wario
D3
ZSS
falco
Fox
wolf
olimar
rob
and mabey even pit?
11-12 diffrent characters
I also don't know many characters he absolutly ***** either

now do NOT agrue this, if your a snake main and you know better add or subtract but please take the point of
snake does not in anyway overcentralize

Marth at the point of MK being gone has (roughly even or worse)
D3
snake
diddy
falco
Ice climbers
possibly wario
ZSS
DK
wolf
ROB
marth
thats about 10ish characters
marth technically has better overall match ups then snake



I like that temporary ban Idea laid out, it gives all parties objective time to decide

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Example of temp ban:

During the period of July 1st, 2010, to January 1st, 2011 the use of Metaknight in National or Major Regional tournaments will be banned. During this time, the 40 ledge grab limit rule shall be lifted and the following stages will be re-instated as counterpicks-

(List of stages, if any.)

On January 1st, 2011, the ban on Metaknight will be lifted and the 40 ledge grab limit rule, as well as the re-instated stages, shall be implemented as before. There will then be no further alterations to the official BBR ruleset concerning Metaknight's banning. On April 1st, official discussion will be re-opened, where we may compare three major differences in metagames, being...

1- Character Variety in tournaments
2- Top Players' placing in tournaments
3- Possible Replacements - Is there anything that could potentially replace Metaknight in an MK-less metagame, in terms of overcentralization or dominance?

On May 1st, the BBR will poll it's members, in which either side will need a 2/3rds majority. If neither side reaches a 2/3rds majority by June 1st, discussion will continue for another two weeks and then another poll will be taken on requiring 2/3rds. If neither side reaches a 2/3rd majority in this poll, discussion will continue for another month, and a final poll will be made, this time including BBR members and other noteworthy members of the community. In this poll a 2/3rds majority will not be needed.

During this time, no changes to the tier list will be made, in order not to alter anyone's perception of the metagame.

From the date that a decision is reached via poll, a full year must pass before any changes to Metaknight's status are made.




That's an example of how I would draw it up. It gives plenty of time for MK mains to adapt to new characters (most know how to play one or two others to a certain degree of proficiency anyway) and give the new, MK-less metagame time to develop. Re-implementing him afterwards for four months gives time for those who wish to return to Metaknight in tournament play to do so and gives them plenty of time to catch up, while simultaneously giving us time to see if the progressed metagame is any better at dealing with Metaknight.


What's wrong with implementing something like this? Obviously it needs to be re-worked a bit, but something similar?

That sounds really good IMO.

 

[Blacknight99923]

also in regards to this temporary banned we to not include outliers like ally who would **** with or without MK in statiscics.

 

[Deleted member]

Example of temp ban:

During the period of July 1st, 2010, to January 1st, 2011 the use of Metaknight in National or Major Regional tournaments will be banned. During this time, the 40 ledge grab limit rule shall be lifted and the following stages will be re-instated as counterpicks-

(List of stages, if any.)

On January 1st, 2011, the ban on Metaknight will be lifted and the 40 ledge grab limit rule, as well as the re-instated stages, shall be implemented as before. There will then be no further alterations to the official BBR ruleset concerning Metaknight's banning. On April 1st, official discussion will be re-opened, where we may compare three major differences in metagames, being...

1- Character Variety in tournaments
2- Top Players' placing in tournaments
3- Possible Replacements - Is there anything that could potentially replace Metaknight in an MK-less metagame, in terms of overcentralization or dominance?

On May 1st, the BBR will poll it's members, in which either side will need a 2/3rds majority. If neither side reaches a 2/3rds majority by June 1st, discussion will continue for another two weeks and then another poll will be taken on requiring 2/3rds. If neither side reaches a 2/3rd majority in this poll, discussion will continue for another month, and a final poll will be made, this time including BBR members and other noteworthy members of the community. In this poll a 2/3rds majority will not be needed.

During this time, no changes to the tier list will be made, in order not to alter anyone's perception of the metagame.

From the date that a decision is reached via poll, a full year must pass before any changes to Metaknight's status are made.




That's an example of how I would draw it up. It gives plenty of time for MK mains to adapt to new characters (most know how to play one or two others to a certain degree of proficiency anyway) and give the new, MK-less metagame time to develop. Re-implementing him afterwards for four months gives time for those who wish to return to Metaknight in tournament play to do so and gives them plenty of time to catch up, while simultaneously giving us time to see if the progressed metagame is any better at dealing with Metaknight.


What's wrong with implementing something like this? Obviously it needs to be re-worked a bit, but something similar?







EDIT: For the record, I personally think that with MK gone, IC's infinites would become a problem, and a rule would be needed to limit those (making one is easy, contrary to what some believe). But that's just my personal opinion and it could likely be attributed to my being a Falco main who plays swordgard.

Brawl Back Room...are you reading this? This sounds pretty dang legit to me.

 

[Black Mantis]

Example of temp ban:

During the period of July 1st, 2010, to January 1st, 2011 the use of Metaknight in National or Major Regional tournaments will be banned. During this time, the 40 ledge grab limit rule shall be lifted and the following stages will be re-instated as counterpicks-

(List of stages, if any.)

On January 1st, 2011, the ban on Metaknight will be lifted and the 40 ledge grab limit rule, as well as the re-instated stages, shall be implemented as before. There will then be no further alterations to the official BBR ruleset concerning Metaknight's banning. On April 1st, official discussion will be re-opened, where we may compare three major differences in metagames, being...

1- Character Variety in tournaments
2- Top Players' placing in tournaments
3- Possible Replacements - Is there anything that could potentially replace Metaknight in an MK-less metagame, in terms of overcentralization or dominance?

On May 1st, the BBR will poll it's members, in which either side will need a 2/3rds majority. If neither side reaches a 2/3rds majority by June 1st, discussion will continue for another two weeks and then another poll will be taken on requiring 2/3rds. If neither side reaches a 2/3rd majority in this poll, discussion will continue for another month, and a final poll will be made, this time including BBR members and other noteworthy members of the community. In this poll a 2/3rds majority will not be needed.

During this time, no changes to the tier list will be made, in order not to alter anyone's perception of the metagame.

From the date that a decision is reached via poll, a full year must pass before any changes to Metaknight's status are made.




That's an example of how I would draw it up. It gives plenty of time for MK mains to adapt to new characters (most know how to play one or two others to a certain degree of proficiency anyway) and give the new, MK-less metagame time to develop. Re-implementing him afterwards for four months gives time for those who wish to return to Metaknight in tournament play to do so and gives them plenty of time to catch up, while simultaneously giving us time to see if the progressed metagame is any better at dealing with Metaknight.


What's wrong with implementing something like this? Obviously it needs to be re-worked a bit, but something similar?







EDIT: For the record, I personally think that with MK gone, IC's infinites would become a problem, and a rule would be needed to limit those (making one is easy, contrary to what some believe). But that's just my personal opinion and it could likely be attributed to my being a Falco main who plays swordgard.

i like this

 

[Damage Points]

Well that temp ban idea posted above is pretty **** smart. It really needs to be considered.

 

[Blacknight99923]

the only problem with this is it conflicts with MLG tournaments considering they are all national its unfair to put players at a disadvantedge. So unless MLG is willing to go with temp ban I would recomend doing temp ban during MLG off season

 

[Raziek]

That's kind of the big problem. We were close to a temp ban before MLG picked Brawl up and screwed the pooch.

 

[Blacknight99923]

nothing is stopping us from agreeing now that at the end of MLG championships that we temporarily ban metaknight for a period of 6 months using pure awsomes idea

 

[Damage Points]

Guys mlg doesn't end for like 6 months. Well be waiting forever at this point. Plus right after it ends u don't have enough time to do a temp ban then unban compare results before mlg next season( if brawl is even on the circuit).

 

[Ripple]

then why don't we just exclude MLG results?...or would that not work?

 

[Tarmogoyf]

I'm calling it: by the time this thread is locked, at least 1/5th of all pages will be quotations from "Metaknight Da Bess".

I hope so lol.

Yeah, MLG really affected the landscape of Brawl. Even if 75%+ of the BBR/community wanted MK banned, MLG makes the decisions, because they provide the might of money in tournaments

 

[pure_awesome]

The ideal would be to do it during the MLG off-season.

If not, Smash has a close enough community that we could still enact an effective soft ban while MLG tournaments are going on without them sponsoring it. The ban would start and end immediately after an event in order to flow seamlessly from one metagame to another and, again, allow MK mains time to adopt a new character full-time (or adopt back to MK) and get some tourney experience before the next MLG event. There would still be some people using MK, but the big names (M2K, Dojo, Tyrant, etc.) all come here and would know about the soft ban, and aren't the kind of guys to just say "Yeah well **** you" to the community.

It would almost be better this way since it would give us a huge National tourney at the end of the ban to really test character diversity. I would suggest the ban span two MLG events if this were the case.

There's ways we can work around anything.

It would certainly be harder to get people to be for the temp ban during MLG events though.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Why not just try banning him from non MLG events and see what happens?

 

[-LzR-]

I don't give a **** about MLG. In Finland, MK might get banned. I main MK and Rob and I wouldn't mind him banned. He is the single most dominant character, while in melee there are many dominant characters which are not perfect, but still incredibly good compared to the rest of the cast.

 

[solecalibur]

The problem that might come up with a temp ban is many TOs saying screw SWF and allow MK as the SWF rule set is recommended not a required rule set, I suggest giving TOs the power to start some "Temp" ban tounrys mentioning they are contributing to gathering statics to see the dominate metagame after a ban was taken into place and then comparing to future tounrys they might hold with metaknight not banned, but of course some regions are dominated my metaknight and some are not

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

If TO's are going to give a middle finger to any testing you can only then make your own tournaments or keep trying to convince them to run MK banned tournaments.

 

[Mota]

Wow good stuff pure_awesome

Some points may need to be reworked, but that's definitely a start. Things are actually moving for once

 

[Laem]

hasnt MLG explicitly stated that regarding the banning of MK they will take the official word of the SBR into account..?

 

[etecoon]

hasnt MLG explicitly stated that regarding the banning of MK they will take the official word of the SBR into account..?

I don't believe they have AFAIK

and a few random TO's doing their own temp ban proves nothing as MK mains will simply avoid those tournaments and you don't get an idea of what would happen if they all actually switched their character. likewise if the SBR does ever recommend a ban a lot of TO's and players are indeed going to just say "screw you" and it won't really be global, it will only serve to further split the community.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

There really is no real good way to do it without splitting the community.

If the proban has support with high level tournaments, outside of MLG, that would force that hand of other TOs as long as the majority wants him banned.

At this point, because of the polarization caused by people that started this debate up again and the previous debates, there really is no good way out of this that keeps the community together.

 

[theunabletable]

and a few random TO's doing their own temp ban proves nothing as MK mains will simply avoid those tournaments and you don't get an idea of what would happen if they all actually switched their character.

I can tell you what'll happen if you ban someone's main.

They'll do worse. Those MK mains being forced to switch really does nothing to add to the data. There's no point in even bothering to look seriously at the data of players who aren't allowed to play the main they've had for months/years.

 

[etecoon]

I can tell you what'll happen if you ban someone's main.

They'll do worse. Those MK mains being forced to switch really does nothing to add to the data. There's no point in even bothering to look seriously at the data of players who aren't allowed to play the main they've had for months/years.

obviously but it depends on how long the temp ban is, if you just take all MK mains out of the equation that isn't really going to tell you much new either, we already know who the top non-MK's are and who they win against and who they lose to for the most part

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I don't believe they have AFAIK

and a few random TO's doing their own temp ban proves nothing as MK mains will simply avoid those tournaments

...and this will lead to the impression that MK-less tournaments are less popular and therefore less profitable, and slowly but surely, less people will run them. ****.

 

[-Ran]

Temp bans by TOs scattered across the region only make their regions weaker. Furthermore, they eventually have to buckle to their players and allow MK due to players realizing that they are deteriorating their own skill. As I stated on page one of this thread, back in January, a global temporary ban that would have a duration long enough [such as six months] to not be considered a passing fancy would be necessary to allow for an accurate, permanent vote to be taken in regards to future MK legality.

Had a ban be instituted back in January, we'd be discussing the new meta game and if it is worth allowing MK to come back in. Time sure does fly.

 

[swordgard]

Just to make it clear to some people. The BBR did not stop caring.

 

[-Ran]

Meta Knight is the puppy that the BBR bought two years ago that has grown into a ferocious pit-bull due to lack of love. They now fear feeding it, so they pay the neighborhood kids to do so who have developed an ingenious way of turning its food into a wet paste where they launch volleys of food via Super Soakers.

So in a way, they still care.

 

[Flayl]

How does not playing against MK deteriorate player's overall skill?

More importantly, why should we "feel sorry" for people who have mained MK for the past two years?

They've had what amounts to a year of warnings that MK might be removed, they can't afford to play stupid.

 

[etecoon]

How does not playing against MK deteriorate player's overall skill?

aside from not having to play against the best character in the game obviously, it doesn't. it will however make you worse at the MK matchup which means that you will get rocked in an MK allowed region

More importantly, why should we "feel sorry" for people who have mained MK for the past two years?

why should we feel sorry for low tier mains that want him banned? that's all this is, a lot of people clamoring for sympathy, it just depends on who you feel deserves it more(or you can be apathetic like me lol. I don't care if he gets banned anymore, I just want a final decision really)

They've had what amounts to a year of warnings that MK might be removed, they can't afford to play stupid.

there is and never has been any sign that an MK ban is imminent. just because you can make good arguments on an internet forum does not mean that you've made actual progress or that anything is actually happening. pro ban has always lacked the back room support that it would need to get it passed there, and now many TO's have pubicly stated that they won't ban MK regardless of what the BBR says anyway. there is no realistic possibility that MK will be banned unless MLG ordains it at this point, and even then I don't think it will be a unanimous thing where we all agree and MK is banned everywhere

 

[pure_awesome]

I can tell you what'll happen if you ban someone's main.

They'll do worse. Those MK mains being forced to switch really does nothing to add to the data. There's no point in even bothering to look seriously at the data of players who aren't allowed to play the main they've had for months/years.

It is my firm belief that M2K will rock everyone's face with, or without MK.

Besides, most MK mains are decent with one or two other characters anyway. Or, in the case of people like Fiction (assuming he's not just blowing smoke this time), actually did main someone else before and would just return to that character. Giving them six months to get that character up to scratch is plenty of time.




Anyway, all we would have to do to solve the schism problem is have all major tourney organizers sign off on it beforehand, and agree that no matter what the decision, they'll abide by it for the full 2 years(ish) that it's in effect. It's a completely fair way of doing it. I really don't think there's anyone who's prominent enough in the community that they would still have an effect who would actually be a jerk enough to go against us just trying to finally get some friggin' progress. And not only that, but a sizable part of his region would have to be jerks too. I think if the temp ban were implemented, people would stop attending tournaments with MK.

 

[etecoon]

It is my firm belief that M2K will rock everyone's face with, or without MK.

he's said repeatedly that he would simply quit the game

Anyway, all we would have to do to solve the schism problem is have all major tourney organizers sign off on it beforehand, and agree that no matter what the decision, they'll abide by it for the full 2 years(ish) that it's in effect

LOL, good ****ing luck with that

 

[Flayl]

Omni already pulled a **** move by undermining that effort.

Really, screw the close-minded people, if we catered to them nothing would ever get done. That applies to everything ever.

If people want to play a worse version of a bad game, let them.