Official Metaknight Discussion

[pure_awesome]

Reductio Ad Historiculum: The act of citing previous instances where the common consensus of the population was wrong in an attempt to validate your own unpopular opinion. Popular citations include the earth having been thought to be flat and women not having the right to vote.

 

[John12346]

I love how you guys have to take specific points out of context instead of responding to the actual argument being made.

What is your argument, anyway? Could you streamline it for me, because it seems like you're just going out of your way to contradict everyone...

ALSO

Okay, then can someone else say how MK loses on non-FD starter stages...? >______>

 

[Ripple]

Umm, didn't you specifically ask for the opinion from a D3 and Marth main, and then you got one that countered your original statement?

I think you may have missed that part.

I actually asked for it, because I believed the opposite.

we got a high class D3 player who thinks the same but it apparently doesn't matter what he thinks

 

[CO18]

I know me,m2k,and neo think the mu is evenish and atomsk probably does too

 

[fkacyan]

I actually asked for it, because I believed the opposite.

we got a high class D3 player who thinks the same but it apparently doesn't matter what he thinks

I didn't say I didn't care what CO18 thought. I just said that it didn't change my opinion.

Don't put words in my mouth.

I know me,m2k,and neo think the mu is evenish and atomsk probably does too

Cool. Believe it or not I've read and watched a lot about that particular MU, and that knowledge doesn't change my opinion.

I'm out, guys, you're debating a specificity that is irrelevant to the main point. I'm not surprised, but it is saddening.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Imo, Thio overrates shield, not that it isn't powerful in this game, but the top characters have tools to deal with shield, and marth when properly spaced is quite effective at reliably pressuring shield.


That's why it's a difficult MU, but DDD doesn't destroy marth.

 

[John12346]

I didn't say I didn't care what CO18 thought. I just said that it didn't change my opinion.

What other people think doesn't particularly matter to me.

Er...

10char

 

[pure_awesome]

I'm honestly surprised there isn't more of a cry to ban MK. Possibly because we've waited so long. He (arguably) invalidates DDD, ROB, Marth, Olimar, DK, Lucario, and a couple others and he overcentralizes the Singles metagame to the point where 90% of top players have him as a pocket secondary and he overcentralizes Doubles to the point where he's a member of 99% of top placing teams

We have to ban aspects of his character and some stages just to balance him, and he STILL has his own tier.

 

[Raziek]

I didn't say I didn't care what CO18 thought. I just said that it didn't change my opinion.

Don't put words in my mouth.

Here we go, it's STRAWMAN TIME! (On my part)

How are you justified in saying that Marth is ***** by Dedede, then when the top players of the characters disagree, you say "Don't care lol".

Someone could just as easily say Ganon goes 80:20 (Ganon's favor) with MK, have the same thing happen, and it would be equally ridiculous.

Your argument on Marth not being as viable due to Dedede is based entirely on your opinion, which "experts" have disagreed with.

 

[fkacyan]

Er...

10char

That's not the same thing. One is stating that I take their opinions into account, and the other is saying I'm not swayed. Badly phrased, yes. Are you arguing a completely unrelated point because you have nothing useful to say when things are made into TL;DR for you? probably.

@Adum: We'll have to agree to disagree on that point for now.

Your argument on Marth not being as viable due to Dedede is based entirely on your opinion, which "experts" have disagreed with.

My opinion isn't being completely pulled out of my ***. I have evidence. I just don't feel I have nearly enough yet.

Last edit I'm making. Time to kill some zombies.

 

[John12346]

That's not the same thing. One is stating that I take their opinions into account, and the other is saying I'm not swayed. Badly phrased, yes. Are you arguing a completely unrelated point because you have nothing useful to say when things are made into TL;DR for you?

No I was just asking about it because it was badly phrased.
.
.
.
.
.
Also, as far as D3 vs Marth, both the D3 and Marth boards agree it's slight advantage D3.

And also Thio, stop stating(or ignoring, I'm not sure which word applies here) the fact that EVERYONE will still have some kind of counter if MK gets banned. That's how a meta-game works; people cover their options either by learning their troublesome MUs or finding a different character to do the job.

The fact that "Marth's viability will be decreased because of a character" is inevitable. It applies to every character. Such is the nature of meta-gaming, unless anyone can just go MK.

 

[pure_awesome]

So we all agree Thio's wrong and he clearly isn't going to admit it.

Let's stop talking about it then.

 

[AllyKnight]

Future your trolling... it is getting there.

Also good job ignoring the fact that Dojo next set 3-1'd Bassem. He went from having a super close set, to winning by a pretty noticeable margin. If you think the matchup is not that bad for Wario, then by all means MM my MK with your Wario. I'll give you 5:1 odds on your money. I won't even plank you that's how generous my offer is.

MM my Wario,Falcon :D Ill show you why MK doesnt **** Wario THAT bad.

 

[DMG]

I accept. BASSEM WHERE YOU AT?!?

 

[OverLade]

MM my Wario,Falcon :D Ill show you why MK doesnt **** Wario THAT bad.

LOL at the expression in your sig.

TOO INTENSE.

And Wario is one of MKs harder matchups but only because MK players mispace. It's up to the Wario to capitalize on every mistake though.

 

[adumbrodeus]

@Adum: We'll have to agree to disagree on that point for now.

Fair enough, but I think you'll see in time that the metagame has moved to a point where good characters have reliable ways to deal with shields.

 

[AvaricePanda]

Mostly reading, but I just wanted to say a few things.

1) If only Spammerer still played.

2)

[MK] (arguably) invalidates DDD, ROB, Marth, Olimar, DK, Lucario, .

DK

I lol'd.

3) John, is your question, "How does MK lose on non-FD neutrals?"

(i'm going to be talking from the Diddy vs. MK perspective)
What is it about platforms that gives MK a huge advantage? People seem to have this conception and I don't really understand it. Just because BF has platforms doesn't mean Diddy's (or I guess anyone) vs. MK is helpless or whatever. Diddy has a lot of dumb gimmicky tricks on Battlefield. The platforms are at an ideal height for him for various things (I could list them if you want), but in general I don't see the match-up changing much in MKs favor because Battlefield has platforms.

Diddy can infinite MK on FD rofl.

MK is REALLY DUMB on SV, and it's weird because people complain about scrooging yet take him there anyway. The moving platform = scrooging + giving him more safety in general. If I'm playing someone who I know won't play like that, I won't strike SV, but if you're going to be perfectly safe I'm not sure why you wouldn't. I also strike PS1 because matches tend to be campier there, and I'm more worried about getting timed out.

Not sure about the other match-ups/characters though.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Plenty of anti-ban have made arguments using facts. Whether you agree or disagree with them is another issue.

All right... let's hear some of these "facts". I'm not denying that anti-ban arguments based on facts exist; I'm saying I'd like to hear them. If you need help, I can give you some... for example, that MK has twice as many points as the second-place character, that any MK at a given rating is miles above the snake at the same rating, that MK takes around half of all the winnings at any given tournament, that MK has no bad stages or matchups, that we have to model our stage and ruleset around Metaknight, that he has a way to become indefinitely invisible and untouchable, that he has a way to almost become completely untouchable to the extent that it is virtually impossible to beat him reasonably working.

My point is that it's politics.

Anti-ban may have reasons outside of logical ones to keep Metaknight; the same goes for pro-ban. Some MK mains vote anti-ban just to keep their main. Some players who main extremely low-tier characters vote pro-ban just so their character can see more success.

Every anti-ban reason I've heard is either "just wait and see" (tendency: MK is getting better, not worse), "Too many pro players main MK to ban him now" (not really a reason not to ban him; they need to learn a new character. Most characters other than, say, MK, Snake, and Diddy need a secondary; snake and diddy should have one anyways. Now MK needs one too.), or the old "I MAIN EMM KAY PLEASE NO BAN".

EDIT: or the faulty "it's too late" and "no criteria" arguments which I went through yesterday.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

MK invalidates in the current SBR ruleset:

Falco
Marth
Dedede
Olimar
Lucario
Toon Link
Pit
ROB
Peach
Luigi (uhh yeah about that)

Most other characters MK beats bad have an unwinnable MU vs. someone else.

 

[Ripple]

MK invalidates in the current SBR ruleset:

Falco
Marth
Dedede
Olimar
Lucario
Toon Link
Pit
ROB
Peach
Luigi (uhh yeah about that)

Most other characters MK beats bad have an unwinnable MU vs. someone else.

^ can't forget yoshi

I'd love to see 12-15 viable characters as opposed to the usual 3-6

/useless post. just opinion

 

[pure_awesome]

The problem with saying MK invalidates such-and-such character is that we just don't know. Maybe without MK, Olimar will do well. Or maybe we'll realize he actually gets destroyed by Marth, who becomes much more popular. Maybe ICs chaingrabs become rampant without the threat of Metaknight and the ICs overcentralize the game almost as much.

You know what would be a good way to know for sure? Temp ban.



Also, Pit sucks.

 

[Kaffei]

The problem with saying MK invalidates such-and-such character is that we just don't know. Maybe without MK, Olimar will do well. Or maybe we'll realize he actually gets destroyed by Marth, who becomes much more popular. Maybe ICs chaingrabs become rampant without the threat of Metaknight and the ICs overcentralize the game almost as much.

You know what would be a good way to know for sure? Temp ban.

Temp ban is inevitably gonna lead to perma ban.

 

[adumbrodeus]

That's why we specify an end before we rediscuss.

 

[giuocob]

Temp ban is inevitably gonna lead to perma ban.

Says who? If we do a 6 month temp ban, and we realize for example that Snake's nade camping completely overpowers every other character, I guarantee that MK will be unbanned. Or maybe we'll ban Snake too and go from there. Or maybe we'll all stop playing this broken game.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Temp ban is inevitably gonna lead to perma ban.

Well doesn't that mean that MK deserves to be banned, if a temp ban would inevitably make people say, "hey, the game is better this way, let's keep MK banned"?


...or are you just an MK main who doesn't want to stop making money with him and therefore wants us to stop any kind of ban procedure.

 

[Ripple]

Says who? If we do a 6 month temp ban, and we realize for example that Snake's nade camping completely overpowers every other character, I guarantee that MK will be unbanned. Or maybe we'll ban Snake too and go from there. Or maybe we'll all stop playing this broken game.

lol at trying to say snake will be banned because of nades. nades are not NEARLY as good as MK's options on the ledge which limits 80% of the cast to the point of uselessness

 

[Kaffei]

Well doesn't that mean that MK deserves to be banned, if a temp ban would inevitably make people say, "hey, the game is better this way, let's keep MK banned"?


...or are you just an MK main who doesn't want to stop making money with him and therefore wants us to stop any kind of ban procedure.

Then ban him

I don't go to tournaments often, so I don't really care about making money from smash. I play MK because of this:
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9631250&postcount=9

I don't care how arbitrary or implausible that sounds, that's the truth^; If MK is banned I'll keep playing him because there will still be people who won't mind playing vs a MK.

tldr I'm neutral.

 

[giuocob]

lol at trying to say snake will be banned because of nades. nades are not NEARLY as good as MK's options on the ledge which limits 80% of the cast to the point of uselessness

I was just making a random example, you pillock.

Then ban him

+1 pro-ban?

 

[Kaffei]

I was just making a random example, you pillock.

Well, it was a bad example.

 

[Ripple]

I was just making a random example, you pillock.

you should know that MK has no comparison.

 

[Kaffei]

you should know that MK has no comparison.

Cause he da bess

+1 pro-ban?

I'm not pro-ban. I'm indifferent.

 

[giuocob]

you should know that MK has no comparison.

No no, I agree with you, I just said that as an example to people who said that temp ban would automatically lead to a permanent ban, you pil-oh forget it.

 

[OverLade]

Everybody mad.

 

[Delta-cod]

^ can't forget yoshi

I'd love to see 12-15 viable characters as opposed to the usual 3-6

/useless post. just opinion

No. MK is not responsible for making Yoshi unviable.

 

[Kaffei]

Everybody mad.

But tkd aint mad

 

[DMG]

M2K vs Gnes, yeah we seen it Dawg

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

No. MK is not responsible for making Yoshi unviable.

I thought yoshi wasn't even that bad against MK.

 

[Ripple]

No. MK is not responsible for making Yoshi unviable.

yoshi would be mid-tier if MK was gone. his only bad match up is marth

 

[John12346]

No no, I agree with you, I just said that as an example to people who said that temp ban would automatically lead to a permanent ban, you pil-oh forget it.

Just to be sure, you're saying the disproven slippery slope fallacy might be proven true by some other character in the absence of MK, right?

Sorry about the abrupt question, but all this conversating is confusing me a bit, and I wanna make sure I'm still on track. ^^;

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Wait whaaaat? What does yoshi's matchup spread look like...