Official Metaknight Discussion

[theunabletable]

Now answer me this-how many of those MKs spent the same amount of time on the Kirby MU as Chu did on the MK MU. Half the time? A third? A quarter?

Well I remember seeing Havok get ***** by Chu's Kirby in friendlies multiple times (I watched them play like 3 or 4 times and didn't see Havok win a match...) throughout the day (they didn't play in tourney), and I'm pretty sure Havok has experience with MogX.

Just as an example.

and pretty much leave it at that, if that.

**** those matchups, I need to learn how to beat ****ing Lucario as MK lmao (I'm serious, I'm soooooo bad against Lucario. So I picked Lucario up for the ditto because I think I have a better chance with that )

Diddy/Falco/Snake/DDD/ICs/Wario/a few others are like Garchomp.

Wait I thought Garchomp was banned in Pokemon (or was atleast put in ubers)? So if they're like Garchomp, shouldn't they be banned too? Just sayin'

Meh idk much about Pokemon

 

[Damage Points]

I hate MK as much of all of you guys. My state is dominated by MKs which uually take 3-4 spots out of the top 5 every tourney. I really don't see him getting banned tho, everyone seems so **** stubborn. It seems like everyone would rather have the game destroyed by a single character then survive for a few more years. It a shame really.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Well I remember seeing Havok get ***** by Chu's Kirby in friendlies multiple times (I watched them play like 3 or 4 times and didn't see Havok win a match...) throughout the day (they didn't play in tourney), and I'm pretty sure Havok has experience with MogX.

Just as an example. **** those matchups, I need to learn how to beat ****ing Lucario as MK lmao (I'm serious, I'm soooooo bad against Lucario. So I picked Lucario up for the ditto because I think I have a better chance with that ) Wait I thought Garchomp was banned in Pokemon (or was atleast put in ubers)? So if they're like Garchomp, shouldn't they be banned too? Just sayin'

Meh idk much about Pokemon

I thought Garchomp was merely borderline bannable... Either way, Arceus is not just stupidly bannable, but the most absurdly broken pokemon ever by a mile and a half.

I hate MK as much of all of you guys. My state is dominated by MKs which uually take 3-4 spots out of the top 5 every tourney. I really don't see him getting banned tho, everyone seems so **** stubborn. It seems like everyone would rather have the game destroyed by a single character then survive for a few more years. It a shame really.

Meh. That's how **** works.

 

[OverLade]

If you want a good doubles partner then teach him to your sister.

 

[Laem]

everybody's mad

 

[Damage Points]

I'd still rather fight MK anyday instead of D3. I don't care what anyone says D3 takes little skill and sucks.

 

[Shaya]

Funny thing about Arceus is that whilst he has the best stat spread in the game and great moveset options, nearly every set Arceus could possibly have is beatable by Mewtwo and vice versa. Darkrai comes close to feasibly having an even match up across all viable sets with Arceus too.

And of course Arceus is banned; whilst Mewtwo (nor Darkrai) is not.

To make this point more clear,
Arceus has base viable sets which are able to clearly dominate most of the metagame,
however both Mewtwo and Darkrai are able to counter the majority of Arceus sets; BUT the opposite is true too (on a specific by specific base).

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Wait, so in other words, it's still not a good metaphor because Arceus can be countered?

 

[etecoon]

it sounds like he's saying mewtwo goes even with arceus, not that mewtwo counters him

which is still more than can be said of meta knight

 

[Shaya]

For every mewtwo set there is an arceus set that counters it
and vice versa.

Arceus and Mewtwo have the best matchups in the pokemon metagame.

Arceus like Garchomp, was banned from their tier due to the metagame requiring sets/teams completely around countering the character. Stuff like everyone and their mother carrying an ice attack or HP Ice and more usage of Mamoswine and Weavile.

So whilst Mewtwo could counter any particiular Arceus set, no one had free switch ins into arceus (or vice versa), and Mewtwos effectiveness in a team otherwise would be less so.

In current ubers, mewtwo can only counter so many threats.
To handle Scizor and Metagross he needs flame thrower.
To handle Kyogre (HUGE THREAT) he needs Thunder.
To handle a big portion of Ubers he needs Ice Beam (dragons, shaymin, etc)
To handle another big portion of ubers he needs Shadow Ball (all of the psyshics)
To be safe around Darkrai and Dialga he needs aurasphere.

So yeah, whilst mewtwo is able to take on every single pokemon in ubers and win, he cant take them ALL ON and win.
Arceus on the other hand could feasibly take out a majority of the opponents team UNLESS you had a specific counter set up pokemon.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Sue me for not knowing anything about competitive pokemon. :V It was just a cheap metaphor. :V

 

[Shaya]

Actually I think you could argue there is a strong correlation.

Arceus being legal would be too centralising for the game as a whole, who cares if mewtwo can beat him, doesnt stop arceus from destroying most of your team and mewtwo cant switch in (meaning you are generally forced to lose at least one poke).

Read: Meta Knight against [Snake]

 

[iRJi]

Actually I think you could argue there is a strong correlation.

Arceus being legal would be too centralising for the game as a whole, who cares if mewtwo can beat him, doesnt stop arceus from destroying most of your team and mewtwo cant switch in (meaning you are generally forced to lose at least one poke).

Read: Meta Knight against [Snake]

Wow, this kinda sounds like the meta-knight situation we have, huh?

 

[Deleted member]

Actually I think you could argue there is a strong correlation.

Arceus being legal would be too centralising for the game as a whole, who cares if mewtwo can beat him, doesnt stop arceus from destroying most of your team and mewtwo cant switch in (meaning you are generally forced to lose at least one poke).

Read: Meta Knight against [Snake]

So true...

I don't get why Mew is banned in most tournaments, though. His stats really aren't that great.

 

[Shaya]

Official nintendo tournaments have different standards.
They ban all legendaries that are event-only IIRC.

The big thing though is this isn't pokemon, this is brawl.
Different competitive standards,
ones a turn based game, the others a real time fighter.

 

[Deleted member]

Still, your Meta Knight comparison to Arceus seems pretty valid to me.

:3

 

[hotgarbage]

There's also the species clause to consider. In pokemon there is mandatory diversity... so guys like Arceus stick out like a sore thumb when placed next to your other pokes.

If smash had such a clause, and you were forced to use a different character each match the situation would be similar. MK would stick out like a sore thumb... and you'd be a complete fool not to include him on your "team".

 

[Kewkky]

Talking about pokemon:smash comparisons AGAIN?

You guys should start talking about something more relevant, like possible MK counters being someone you'd never expect, but was very obvious from the start... like Kirby!

0>deaths on MK galore on that video, seriously. I'll pay you all $5.00 if there are no Kirby vs MK 0>deaths clips in that link.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

The real problem with Smash to pokemon comparisons is that you also aren't dealing with a single character vs a single character, but 6V6. It's only semi comparable because of that. Also, eveeything in pokemon has a counter (inb4 wobbuffet), and there really aren't even MUs 1v1

 

[ShadowLink84]

Talking about pokemon:smash comparisons AGAIN?

You guys should start talking about something more relevant, like possible MK counters being someone you'd never expect, but was very obvious from the start... like Kirby!

0>deaths on MK galore on that video, seriously. I'll pay you all $5.00 if there are no Kirby vs MK 0>deaths clips in that link.

Start of the vid there is no 0-death.
Instead kirby gets 0-deathed.

Money now?

 

[WindMajor]

Talking about pokemon:smash comparisons AGAIN?

You guys should start talking about something more relevant, like possible MK counters being someone you'd never expect, but was very obvious from the start... like Kirby!

0>deaths on MK galore on that video, seriously. I'll pay you all $5.00 if there are no Kirby vs MK 0>deaths clips in that link.

MK would be B tier if he had Toon Link's Dair. You know, like the obvious Dair he's using in that video.

 

[John12346]

Tbh, I think Meta-Knight should move at the pace he does in Super Star Ultra. It was a reasonable speed, imo.

 

[fkacyan]

ITT: People compare a game where matchups can be calculated to the %HP moves take away to a game where we have yet to accurately describe even 10% of the matchups in the game.

 

[Kewkky]

Too bad Sakurai didn't see it fit to use Kirby's MK versions as representations of Brawl's MK version. There would be a very large difference in the metagame if this were so. Did you see that dair? The start-up on some of his stronger attacks? Movement speed? Ah, what a different metagame we'd have in our hands, huh?

Ooh, and to add to the Pokemon vs Brawl difference... In Pokemon, the goal is to reduce the life to 0. In Brawl, you can keep increasing the damage as much as you want, since the goal is to knock the opponent over the blastzones. In pokemon there's lots of 1-to-3 hit kills, in Brawl there's never any of this, only pokes, strings and damage racking until your kill move might end the stock for them... Or it might not, since we have DI and momentum cancelling/reversal to help us survive longer.

Start of the vid there is no 0-death.
Instead kirby gets 0-deathed.

Money now?

No loopholes for you, I promised money if there was no 0>death clips in the whole of the video.

 

[Blacknight99923]

I personally liked what shaya had to say.


food for though now... MK statiscially breaks the counterpicking system how do you guys feel If MK was banned on counter picking rounds but was legal on the first match of the set? I don't know if this was discussed before but what do you guys think?

 

[judge!]

me anther talked. and even if a few people were to say ban mk...u cant really ban him lol

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

me anther talked. and even if a few people were to say ban mk...u cant really ban him lol

And now this way in a way that the average layman doesn't have to think for 10 minutes about. Please?

 

[adumbrodeus]

me anther talked. and even if a few people were to say ban mk...u cant really ban him lol

This needs to get prefaced, judge, I respect you for your ability and contributions to the metagame and I'm anti-ban due to lack of evidence...


But come the **** on, I could apply that to literally ANYTHING. I promise, take any decision possible, even "should we kill all humans", there's at least a few people who would say "yes" or "no" depending on the question. Even if MK was had a frame 1 move that automatically KO'd you, even through invincibility frames, a couple of people out there, even in the community, would say, "no, don't ban him". There's just too many people.


So no, bad logic.

 

[Blacknight99923]

This needs to get prefaced, judge, I respect you for your ability and contributions to the metagame and I'm anti-ban due to lack of evidence...


But come the **** on, I could apply that to literally ANYTHING. I promise, take any decision possible, even "should we kill all humans", there's at least a few people who would say "yes" or "no" depending on the question. Even if MK was had a frame 1 move that automatically KO'd you, even through invincibility frames, a couple of people out there, even in the community, would say, "no, don't ban him". There's just too many people.


So no, bad logic.

We shouldn't need people like adum to state the obvious. Then again it takes people like you to keep these forums running.


and the people who Main MK wouldn't want him banned in that situation


just like they do in this situation bar overzelousaboutbanningMKswarm

 

[Turbo Ether]

I don't see why people think MKs metagame is so much more advanced than every other character.

1. Brawl isn't exactly the deepest game out there.

2. Most MKs seem to suck *** at a lot of random matchups.

 

[Blacknight99923]

brawl is deep in diffrent ways. and MKs losing to random match ups is probably because they study ones like snake or diddy far more then a match up they should be ****** but the ***** character knows the MK mu inside and out.

Maining MK has its disadvantedges

 

[Judo777]

I hate the argument of snake being the next MK snake has 3 features that i love in a good character. 1 snake has some fairly bad stages and some of those stages people like wario and gw are good on. 2 snake has about 2 disadvantaged MU's (Oli, and D3). 3 one of those disadvantaged MU's is probably the easiest character in the entire game to use (LOL D3) So yea there will be tons of snakes but there will also be a ton of D3s sooo i dont think he'll be the next MK.

 

[Kaffei]

I agree with Judo. Without MK to protect Snake from D3s, snake won't really move much.

 

[ADHD]

I hate the argument of snake being the next MK snake has 3 features that i love in a good character. 1 snake has some fairly bad stages and some of those stages people like wario and gw are good on. 2 snake has about 2 disadvantaged MU's (Oli, and D3). 3 one of those disadvantaged MU's is probably the easiest character in the entire game to use (LOL D3) So yea there will be tons of snakes but there will also be a ton of D3s sooo i dont think he'll be the next MK.

Snake vs olimar and DDD is generally even (50:50). Also, snake may have his fair share of unfavorable stages, but in no way is any matchup on either of those areas impossible or drastically altered. Snake can indefinitely defeat DDD on rainbow cruise, delfino--you name it, despite the advantages DDD has in theory there. He has no reasons to not conquer this game as much as metaknight does. In fact, I have a feeling that snake is even with metaknight in terms of character-to-player ratio.. it's just snake has a small hump to climb over initially, while metaknight has none.

 

[AllyKnight]

Ban Metaknight! omg 5 jumps AHH BROKEN, A SWORD that doesnt clash? NEO taught me well, NADO ***** SPOTDODGES ANYTIME omg BAN HIM

 

[Kaffei]

metaknights da bess, metaknights da bess
metaknights da bess, metaknights da bess
now donkey kong is mad, ddd is mad
mario is mad, ice climbers are mad

 

[AllyKnight]

UP Invinciblity frames OMG LEETT wait wait i got them 4 recoveries derp derp

 

[OverLade]

Snake vs olimar and DDD is generally even (50:50). Also, snake may have his fair share of unfavorable stages, but in no way is any matchup on either of those areas impossible or drastically altered. Snake can indefinitely defeat DDD on rainbow cruise, delfino--you name it, despite the advantages DDD has in theory there. He has no reasons to not conquer this game as much as metaknight does. In fact, I have a feeling that snake is even with metaknight in terms of character-to-player ratio.. it's just snake has a small hump to climb over initially, while metaknight has none.

D3 has mad CPs against snake, you can't pretend snake wins. D3 wins at least 55:45. Marth/Lucario/ZSS/Wario also have good matchups against snake. Just looking at the current top players from ever region, the only way Snake could dominate anywhere near as much as MK is if every top MK switched to snake when he got banned.

 

[DMG]

And also be good with him.

 

[Kaffei]

And also be good with him.

Which doesn't seem very likely to happen imo idk y