Official Metaknight Discussion

[Miamisportsfan45]

what happened to dehf the mk slayer, he lost that title :O?

Wish I could have that title... I hate matchups vs MK

 

[Demp]

Wish I could have that title... I hate matchups vs MK

Bring a knife to tournaments. If you get placed up against an MK you know what to do.

You'll get the title in no time!

 

[MarKO X]

what happened to dehf the mk slayer, he lost that title :O?

he probably lost that title when he got beat by the version of Mk without the sword at Pound 4.

loljk

Falco has some odd bad matchups though.

 

[1048576]

*reads powerpoint

Crow, will you ... do me?

 

[dainbramage]

Reduction to absurdity is often something that follows strawmanning, which isn't any different in this case.

He took what I said out of the context of the original discussion, where my conjecture had facts and logic behind it (Thus usage of that word), and once it was out of context, reduced it to absurdity. That is the very definition of strawmanning.

No. Seriously.

This is all off-topic bull****, though. If you have evidence to prove that:

1) GGs is not a great MK stage
2) That the moves I spoke about cannot kill at extremely low percents

You're more than welcome to introduce said evidence, instead of attacking the semantics of my argument and avoiding a point you probably have no rebuttal to.

I never gave my opinion on either of these matters. I personally don't have any competitive experience on GG, hence why I'm not giving said opinion.

 

[Mota]

Haha that powerpoint too good.

Fail statistics. If Anti-ban really did do those things.....

 

[Judo777]

I think the power point should be made into a cd and given out at tourneys lol

 

[solecalibur]

he probably lost that title when he got beat by the version of Mk without the sword at Pound 4.

loljk

Falco has some odd bad matchups though.

Snake loses to D3 see winterfest
Falco loses to ICs and Pikapika
Diddy loses to ... peach weegee , not many play them these days

did I mention they all lose to MK?

 

[Remzi]

best part of the powerpoint was definitely omni's attempt at statistics. too good.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Lmfao @ the power point, too good.

 

[OverLade]

Crows power point *****.

 

[Flayl]

I really haven't had the time until now, but if people want I can update this post with February & March. I could also add CrimsonVoulge and Radikal Havoc, even though the latter doesn't perform on the same level as the hater of Super Flies or Dictator.

 

[_Kadaj_]

lol This thread is funny and mk needs no ban

that Pp was too good crow xD

 

[etecoon]

I'm still leaning more anti-ban but that powerpoint was amazing ****

 

[TheLastCacely]

omni told me to come here to say mk should be banned.

 

[GeneralWoodman]

Metaknight is broken
he should be banned
discuss

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

I think Omni is pulling your leg.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I love that it apparently doesn't matter how dominant a character is to anti-ban, we should just accept that and move on like we do with all in-game things like items and stages like Aero Drive.

 

[fkacyan]

I love that it apparently doesn't matter how dominant a character is to anti-ban, we should just accept that and move on like we do with all in-game things like items and stages like Aero Drive.

Pro-ban has yet to give concrete proof that:

- Such dominance is a bad thing for competition.
- The game is better without him dominating it.

There's a reason that most of us are up for a temp ban at this point.

 

[Espy Rose]

Then why not do it?
Right here, and right now?

Why all the hesitation? Is it because of MLG?

 

[fkacyan]

Then why not do it?
Right here, and right now?

Why all the hesitation? Is it because of MLG?

Bingo! MLG's announcement essentially forced his legality.

 

[Espy Rose]

Well...

That's incredibly lame.
Good job, MLG. Buncha' jerks.

 

[etecoon]

Bingo! MLG's announcement essentially forced his legality.

Well...

That's incredibly lame.
Good job, MLG. Buncha' jerks.

at the same time their ridiculous stage list almost guarantees that he'll become an even greater problem LOL

MLG picked up brawl just to **** with us

 

[san.]

One of the large issues is the actual transition into temp-ban for the whole community. Obviously, there will be quite a few regions who may not be receptive to such change (even if it's temporary), especially more so if done too quickly.

A few things are required if a sticky is made. These things take time and effort, understandably, but no progression or action at all from this point just seem outlandish. (I'm neutral, but I think pro-ban has much stronger arguments =/ )


1. General Consensus of the community for a temporary ban:
It cannot be decided on impulse. There must be a way for 1 group to say that this is what the community wants as far as taking out a lot of time and the cooperation needed for a temp ban. This is the main reason why things haven't been developing any farther than ignoring each other's arguments. We have, imo, gotten to the point where people on both sides of the issue will not compromise much farther than a temp ban, and the neutral side won't budge very much.

A community vote, vote in the BBR, or some combination of the two may give a final voice on whether SWF is ready to handle this for the next year. I think whichever gets the majority works, but I guess it's up to others how many % a side needs to get to become decisive.

This is insurance that whatever decision is made will have an easier transition to acceptance, and knowledge that most of the community favors a certain decision.


2. A concrete time period AT LEAST a month in advance afterward for planned MK temp ban.
-Depicting the length of time of a temp ban (imo should be almost a year, at least half a year) should give people who accept the vote time to prepare and accept the situation, time for the boards to adjust to such incoming changes, and for others outside SWF to know about and understand the temp ban.


3. Cooperation from a number of people to obtain specified data from tournaments over time.
-I have seen some posts that explains a number of important things to look for. Some criteria of what we're looking for and what kind of results mean what before arguments happen would be nice.


4. A plan of actions regarding what to do near the last month or so of the temp ban:

How have things been progressing? What conclusions can be made from the data? Obviously, discussion will be all about this during a temp-ban, but what I'm thinking about is a discussion of BBR members' views and opinions where other people can see and discuss in another topic. This is a serious issue that affects the entire community, so I think people should be able to see more of BBR's input instead of a few people and the others lurking in the shadows.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I do think a temp ban for non-MLG tournaments over the next year is the way to go. And san, nice post. Sums up my thoughts on the subject.

 

[fkacyan]

I do think a temp ban for non-MLG tournaments over the next year is the way to go. And san, nice post. Sums up my thoughts on the subject.

There's a reason I've been suggesting that tourneys experiment with running two singles events (MLG rules and MK-banned) instead of Singles and Doubles.

The most important thing is that we get this stuff started, really.

 

[Chuee]

Snake loses to D3 see winterfest
Falco loses to ICs and Pikapika
Diddy loses to ... peach weegee , not many play them these days

did I mention they all lose to MK?

No they don't. First off, 55-45 does not mean they "lose". Pikapika is a player and Falco vs IC's isn't considered a hard counter anymore. lol at MK beating all of them. Snake gets 55-45'd by Meta. Diddy is about a 50-50 MU, maybe 55-45. Falco is a 6-4 with planking and 50-50 without.

 

[DMG]

Falco vs IC's is generally considered 6:4 or harder. Some people have Pika harder than that (or they have it like 65:35 IC's, and 6:4 Pika. Most people have one or the other at 65:35).

MK does beat all of them. 55:45 equates to "Good Game Gentlemen, I have an edge over you all and I am the expected favorite".

 

[Judo777]

No they don't. First off, 55-45 does not mean they "lose". Pikapika is a player and Falco vs IC's isn't considered a hard counter anymore. lol at MK beating all of them. Snake gets 55-45'd by Meta. Diddy is about a 50-50 MU, maybe 55-45. Falco is a 6-4 with planking and 50-50 without.

Lol 55-45 means that they have the advantage and therefore should win more with 2 players of equal skill. And omg diddy vs MK isn't 50/50. Adhd is just nasty plain and simple. You know who else is 50/50 with MK? IC's just watch lains first matches with M2K..........
(sarcasm)? See what i did there?

 

[AvaricePanda]

You can't really make judgment on match-ups unless you play either of the characters in said match-up to a good level. X player using X character beating Y player using Y character doesn't prove anything in itself.

also, inb4 rush of people coming into this thread saying MLG results proves MK should/shouldn't be banned

 

[theunabletable]

at the same time their ridiculous stage list almost guarantees that he'll become an even greater problem LOL

Huh.

The Final 8 for MLG Orlando 2010:

Mew2King - Meta Knight
Ally - Snake
ADHD - Diddy
DSF - Meta Knight
Tyrant - Meta Knight
DEHF - Falco
Big Lou - Luigi
ESAM - Pikachu

Stagelist caters to MK, and there are only 3 in the top 8? He overcentralizes the game to the point that no other characters are viable, obv.

 

[Flayl]

I'm curious too, was the idea that the stagelist favored MK just theorycraft then? Does MLG's ruleset actually make the game more balanced?

 

[deepseadiva]

Characters besides MK benefit from an open stage list???

 

[Throwback]

wtf @ luigi in top 8. That's awesome.

 

[etecoon]

I'm curious too, was the idea that the stagelist favored MK just theorycraft then? Does MLG's ruleset actually make the game more balanced?

it's impossible to draw conclusions from one tournament as it is but it was also unseeded, the results of orlando never should have been a key piece of evidence for either side

still, top four looking interesting with all the upsets

M2K(Meta Knight)
Ally(Snake)
ESAM(PIKACHU!?)
Tyrant(Meta Knight)

 

[Chuee]

Falco vs IC's is generally considered 6:4 or harder. Some people have Pika harder than that (or they have it like 65:35 IC's, and 6:4 Pika. Most people have one or the other at 65:35).

MK does beat all of them. 55:45 equates to "Good Game Gentlemen, I have an edge over you all and I am the expected favorite".

Nah, Falco goes even without planking and Diddy might too.
Also, no Falco's consider the IC MU that bad anymore.

Lol 55-45 means that they have the advantage and therefore should win more with 2 players of equal skill. And omg diddy vs MK isn't 50/50. Adhd is just nasty plain and simple. You know who else is 50/50 with MK? IC's just watch lains first matches with M2K..........
(sarcasm)? See what i did there?

55-45 is a slight advantage. Of course the 55 wins when the two players are equal but the 45 can easily win by outplaying the 55. ADHD is just nasty? lolwut? M2K only beats Lain because he is just nasty.
See what i did there?


Oh, and get @ ESAM & Nick Riddle wrecking those MKs.

 

[Flayl]

it's impossible to draw conclusions from one tournament as it is but it was also unseeded, the results of orlando never should have been a key piece of evidence for either side

still, top four looking interesting with all the upsets

M2K(Meta Knight)
Ally(Snake)
ESAM(PIKACHU!?)
Tyrant(Meta Knight)

I know it's not enough to draw conclusions, but something must justify the huge difference between the prediction and the actual outcome. We had people writing it would be a blowout for MK.

Yes, among other reasons BigLou, ESAM and Chaz really stepped it up. I'd like to know if stages had anything to do with their results for example.

 

[theunabletable]

it's impossible to draw conclusions from one tournament as it is but it was also unseeded, the results of orlando never should have been a key piece of evidence for either side

We can't just throw out the whole tournament because of random seeding. Random seeding could influence the overall rankings, but look at specifically who beat who.

A lot of top non-MKs beat a lot of MKs (NickRiddle beating Ksizzle, Big Lou beating Atomsk, ESAM beating DSF, etc), which is definitely worth looking at, whether or not it was randomly seeded. Especially with a stage list that should give MK a big boost. And a few MKs beat some non-MKs, too (like Tyrant beating ESAM and ADHD. And apparently M2K beat Ally in winner's finals).

It makes no sense to just throw out ALL of the results just because of random seeding.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Characters besides MK benefit from an open stage list???

This.

Lesson: Don't knock it 'til you try it?

 

[etecoon]

of course. but it's still one tournament, I think the other MLG events should occur and be considered before you really decide what effect if any the stage list had.

I think a big reason people considered it a win for MK is that it does noticeably strengthen his MU vs diddy and falco, two characters that otherwise are closeish to him. but it is also conceivable that the stages benefit some slightly weaker characters even more, too hard to say with such a small sample size