Official Metaknight Discussion

[TLMSheikant]

I quoted you guys to remind you of your trashyness.

Those are you two. iRest m iCase.

B-b-but I place 3 all the time. See? I MUST be good, I must be! Screams.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Ehhh, those two matchups vary disgustingly based on stage layout. It's very hard to tell who wins, and by what margin, overall.

BTW you see the Cata class previews? Thoughts?

The previews were pretty phenominal!

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

It works against people who are awful.

I wouldn't agree with that mindset so many people have necessarily.

Smash is filled with all sorts of scenarios. Many players might become good by simply practicing enough that they can react to those scenarios in the correct manner protecting them from a lot of punishment. But, given a new scenario they are not familiar with, they could end up failing until they are familiarized with it.

If you think about all the advice that is generically written into people's minds such as to not spam, avoid overally bad attacks such as smash attacks that are not safe, do not spam rolls, etc. Now, if this mindset gets practiced enough among enough people, the metagame shifts to a particular playstyle that everyone is familiar with. However, the downfall is that you end up with a ton of people who do not know how to punish certain things because they never play anyone who abuses those things.

This is why a person could be good and still lose. They have never learned how to punish particular playstyle before. If you tell someone to punish MK's Tornado spam when they have never played an MK before that spams it, then they will naturally do fairly bad.

This particular situation is very common among those that abuse the whole planking scenario. Many characters might do extremely well against Pit because they can punish him onstage, but as soon as he attempts to edge camp the playstyle changed very quickly. The player opposing Pit is now faced with a scenario that might be alien to them. Until they learn how to combat this new playstyle, they will lose probably.

You could argue a good person would be able to adapt to even a new playstyle, but I would call that person great. A good player can still be good if they play long enough and figure out how to punish various scenarios. There only downfall then is when presented with something new.

 

[UltiMario]

To support why Xeylode said, I have actually battle a rather skilled player that seemed to be able to take my Meta Knight on with relatively little difficulty.

Then I started Nado spamming.

They had no idea what to do and I took advantage of every opportunity to Nado, and took him down with little trouble.

It happens.

 

[DMG]

IDK about Tornado spamming, but well thought out Tornado usage DOES **** quite a bit of the cast.

 

[Orion*]

4:6 cannot be different from 4:6.

thank you.

Because the game is still decided more by reads and human error than character advantages.

yes

Wow. Three people quote an obvious troll... back to back to back...

Good job boards. We win.

no. you failed and inconsequently fed the troll more.

*wonders if budget cadet player has been tickled yet*

sadly his pickle is to far away

Quoted for truth. Also, Thio, ur trash lolol.

C wut eye ded thar????

he knows he sucks. dont rub salt in the wound bro. in his defense

"I ALMOST BEAT NINJALINK OMG!"

 

[adumbrodeus]

Matchups are suppose to mean: if every 10 matches, character one wins 4 matches and character two wins 6 matches with both players playing at similar skill levels, then the match-up is 4:6.

4:6 cannot be different from 4:6.

thank you.

*facepalm*

1. Do you think that definition is anywhere near universally accepted? Hint: A lot of people consider MUs too polarized at equal skill levels for that to be useful.

2. If you believe that it is, how often do you see people applying statistical reasoning in MU threads (eg. "outcamping results in a 5% increase in win ratio", "lack of safe approach is a 10% increase" etc.).




Yeah, the reality is that every community has drastically different perceptions about what MU numbers mean due to the fact that there is no firm rigorous criteria for what each number means. Sure you can SAY "6-4 means 60% win ratio", but without any statistical reasoning used in the MU discussion itself, it just says that "this match-up is what the community perceives as a soft counter".


So no.

 

[Zozefup]

new rule: "If the match goes to time, MK loses". and Smashville is banned. Problem solved.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJfjeHsNsPE

 

[HRNUT (Honey Roasted)]

so who are the mks attending mlg worried about?

 

[DMG]

Other MK's, or people a lot better than them? lol

"I pick Green Greens"

"Oh ok you beat me on your CP after Green Greens, HEY let's go back to Green Greens"

Rofl

 

[HRNUT (Honey Roasted)]

lol haha i meant specifically who they don't want to fight. Green Greens is amazing for snake and mk and d3...looks like the tiers will be changing because of that stage lol

 

[<π]

snake is even more stupid on that stage.

I don't know if MK can keep a percent lead he'll do well on that stage because he can camp, but other wise I don't think it's a good mk stage.

 

[demonictoonlink]

Green Greens a good MK stage? God no. That was one of Praxis' points arguing to keep that stage. It actually provides a CP against MK.

He isn't terrible there, but it definitely doesn't help him.

The only think that stage does for him is make his shuttle loop kill easier.

 

[DMG]

Lol

MK dominates Green Greens. Have you ever seen Tornado setting off Bomb Blocks Safely, or MK Down Bing through Bomb Blocks and not getting hit?

I also discovered some juicy MK throw exploits on this stage.

 

[Kewkky]

I also discovered some juicy MK throw exploits on this stage.

While next to a bomb block, dthrow > opponent is pushed against the wall > grounded upB (> glide attack)? Or bthrow against a wall > rising nair > rising dair? Maybe a little of bthrow against the block wall > air shuttle loop away from the stage if the opponent doesn't tech? What about sideB > drag your opponent into a bomb block?

Sounds nice.

 

[Espy Rose]

Lol @ sideB.

That mess is so easy to DI it's absurd.

 

[DMG]

MK can Uthrow and trap people under the stage

UNDER THE STAGE

You know the RC Uthrow Glitch, where MK goes up, and comes back down lower than he started? Imagine doing that consistently. AKA MK on Green Greens lol.

 

[Zozefup]

I counter pick Green Greens and go G&W against MK. I think it's 6:4 G&W advantage over MK on Green Greens.

 

[DMG]

Naw. G&W still loses to MK there. Some people think Snake ***** MK on there. Go ask Ally what he thinks lol, we talked about it at Whobo and he was like "Yeah this is obviously a ******** MK stage"

 

[Exceladon City]

Naw. G&W still loses to MK there. Some people think Snake ***** MK on there. Go ask Ally what he thinks lol, we talked about it at Whobo and he was like "Yeah this is obviously a ******** stage"

I wholeheartedly agree.

 

[Crow!]

Deliberately misquoting people can get you sued IRL. It's not something you want to get in the habit of doing.

 

[Tommy_G]

Deliberately misquoting people can get you sued IRL. It's not something you want to get in the habit of doing.

If that's what he said and it isn't taken out of context to mean something other than what he said, then no one can get sued for saying that he said it.

Now if that's not what he said, then that's a different story.

Edit: I just read the quoted post. I thought you meant he misquoted him from real life to smashboards.... :-/

The majority of people in FL thinks Green Greens is a ridiculous Snake stage. Seibrik uses Snake on it instead of MK.

 

[fkacyan]

If that's what he said and it isn't taken out of context to mean something other than what he said, then no one can get sued for saying that he said it.

Now if that's not what he said, then that's a different story.

Edit: I just read the quoted post. I thought you meant he misquoted him from real life to smashboards.... :-/

The majority of people in FL thinks Green Greens is a ridiculous Snake stage. Seibrik uses Snake on it instead of MK.

FL thinks ZSS is good. =/

Spoiler

I kid, NickRiddle, I kid! Please don't kill me.

 

[OverLade]

Snake is RIDICULOUS on Green Greens but I wouldn't go as far as saying he ***** MK there. Me and Mampam spent a couple hours playing it yesterday. It's likely he has an advantage at least.

MLG rules imo actually make snake more viable against MK but make every other character unviable against him.

edit:
Sample stage striking and why Snake *****.

MK strikes FD, PS1, Halberd

Snake strikes Delphino, Battlefield, Yoshis, then he can strike Smashville even.

MK has to pick Lylat or Castle Siege.

****.

 

[<π]

While next to a bomb block, dthrow > opponent is pushed against the wall > grounded upB (> glide attack)? Or bthrow against a wall > rising nair > rising dair? Maybe a little of bthrow against the block wall > air shuttle loop away from the stage if the opponent doesn't tech? What about sideB > drag your opponent into a bomb block?

Sounds nice.

so many characters have a way of doing this.

also, you can tech out of it.

 

[fkacyan]

so many characters have a way of doing this.

also, you can tech out of it.

Not every character is safe after the move after the throw. If MK misses he just goes away to the other side or puts you in an air trap that can kill you in the mid-30-percents.

 

[<π]

Not every character is safe after the move after the throw. If MK misses he just goes away to the other side or puts you in an air trap that can kill you in the mid-30-percents.

WHAT?! How?

He either did upB or Backthrow (his laggies throw) how is going to punish you for a tech?

better question. How is he going to kill you at 30%

 

[fkacyan]

WHAT?! How?

He either did upB or Backthrow (his laggies throw) how is going to punish you for a tech?

better question. How is he going to kill you at 30%

Backthrow: The tech isn't going to be instantaneous (Travel time to the tech point), and you're also going to be in the air. Have fun being in the air against MK.

upB: Quick cancel onto the top of the blocks or one of the platforms. Once again, you're in the air if you wall-teched, though arguably this position can be slightly better depending on exactly where the tech occurred.

As for low percent kills, MK's killing power combined with side blast zones that are extremely close can lead to kills in the 30s, especially if he manages to get you off of the side. Kills happen in the 50s on occasion on normal stages, so that it could happen even earlier on a much smaller stage shouldn't be a surprise.

 

[Justblaze647]

As for low percent kills, MK's killing power combined with side blast zones that are extremely close can lead to kills in the 30s, especially if he manages to get you off of the side.

No.

This is wrong.

 

[fkacyan]

No.

This is wrong.

As usual, your arguments contain a level of detail that boggles the mind and astounds the senses.

 

[Flayl]

DI up

10directionalinfluences

 

[<π]

why would you be in the air from a tech? a wall jump tech? on this stage being in the air isn;t the worst thing in the world depending on your character you can just DI to one of the side plats and get the advantage.

MK has an advantage on a bunch of characters on GG, but these set ups you are creating don't exist. bar a horribly DIed fully charged Fsmash at the edge of a stage MK doesn't kill anything below 60.

 

[fkacyan]

DI up

10directionalinfluences

Obviously, but having buffered a down tilt, air, etc could have buffered a bad direction for you and throw this off, you could simply not react in time, etc; The point is that such kills are possible, not that they happen 100% of the time. And even if you DI up, you're still off the stage against MK.

I'm still not entirely sure why people think this is a bad MK stage, or would spend time arguing that it is.

EDIT: <3, you're amazingly wrong.

MK has an advantage on a bunch of characters on GG, but these set ups you are creating don't exist. bar a horribly DIed fully charged Fsmash at the edge of a stage MK doesn't kill anything below 60.

MK's fresh downsmash kills light character at 36% when fresh and without DI, uncharged. Off the edge, shuttle loop probably kills slightly earlier. etc etc. The point of this is that MK can kill very early, and given that he can low percents combo to almost the DI-less percentages, giving a 10% window or so for good DI and maybe 15-20 for great DI, he's still killing in the 70s, which is about 30-50% earlier than on a lot of the larger stages.

 

[<π]

No wonder you guys want him banned. You have no idea how to play against him. MK's air mobility, speed and jump/fast fall speeds are laughable. most characters including very bad ones like link can out maneuver MK from off stage and recover. if they don't some how and are hit with the power of DI you get a second chance. assuming I'm not Down aired I live upwards of 120 against mk offstage very easily with a light characters like sheik.

and since MK has no moves except down air that hit at low angles in the first place that shouldn't be coming up often at all.

 

[fkacyan]

No wonder you guys want him banned. You have no idea how to play against him. MK's air mobility, speed and jump/fast fall speeds are laughable. most characters including very bad ones like link can out maneuver MK from off stage and recover. if they don't some how and are hit with the power of DI you get a second chance. assuming I'm not Down aired I live upwards of 120 against mk offstage very easily with a light characters like sheik.

and since MK has no moves except down air that hit at low angles in the first place that shouldn't be coming up often at all.

I don't want MK banned.

Way to not have a rebuttal and then use a generalization to try to cover up that fact.

Spoiler

inb4youdidthattoolikeabazilliontimesCyanide

 

[<π]

You forgot something

EDIT: <3, you're amazingly wrong.



MK's fresh downsmash kills light character at 36% when fresh and without DI, uncharged. Off the edge, shuttle loop probably kills slightly earlier. etc etc. The point of this is that MK can kill very early, and given that he can low percents combo to almost the DI-less percentages, giving a 10% window or so for good DI and maybe 15-20 for great DI, he's still killing in the 70s, which is about 30-50% earlier than on a lot of the larger stages.

fsmash is stronger than upB especially if he is using it to hit blocks and after every throw like you are suggesting. fsmash and most of MK's moves for that matter can be DIed up so much the move becomes vertical, add momentum canceling and other stuff to that and you get for lack of a better word, 'bad' kill moves.

 

[fkacyan]

You forgot something



fsmash is stronger than upB especially if he is using it to hit blocks and after every throw like you are suggesting. fsmash and most of MK's moves for that matter can be DIed up so much the move becomes vertical, add momentum canceling and other stuff to that and you get for lack of a better word, 'bad' kill moves.

Yes, and without DI also means the exclusion of poor DI, or DI caused by beginning an input for a move, etc. Thus downsmash at 10-20% higher is essentially a guaranteed kill if you can be patient enough to not spam the move on blocks. Keep in mind, this is uncharged.

And even if you live, you're above MK near the blast zone.

 

[<π]

go try it out see how long you live against MK's attacks with DI.

 

[Justblaze647]

go try it out see how long you live against MK's attacks with DI.

Thiocyanide never applies his random ramblings in actual match scenarios.

Theorycraft is his only attack.

 

[fkacyan]

Thiocyanide never applies his random ramblings in actual match scenarios.

Theorycraft is his only attack.

If you think I'm wrong, all you have to do is go and test it yourself, or find something that proves me wrong.

All you're doing right now is causing me to laugh IRL.

go try it out see how long you live against MK's attacks with DI.

If I get a chance to play with some friends today, I'll do just that (Maybe even record it), but if I can't, this is exceptionally hard to do alone.