Official Metaknight Discussion

[Exceladon City]

Where do people get this halfbaked *** idea to ban moves to preserve the embodiment of Melee Fox's Shine?

I mean if you're talking about banning the arsenal, you might as well ban the armory too. I don't care either way. It's not like I'm gonna get PokeMK'd in tournament. I play ****in Sonic.

"Omg Sonic hard counters me!" *picks Meta Knight* "Now my problems are solved!"

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Many people have fallen for the idea that MK is "unstoppablez!!1" So they of course play as him in a major tourney. Obviously a lot of MKs means many are going to place top.

Reread this post. This point (There are more top MKs, of course they'll place better) has been touted around for quite a while and is still wrong.

You wanna put your money where your mouth is?

I would if there were any good DKs in the area.

 

[adumbrodeus]

DK counterpicks Norfair.


GGs.

 

[fkacyan]

DK counterpicks Norfair.


GGs.

D3 player switches to a character who can abuse Norfair.

GGs.

 

[.Marik]

Stop theorycrafting, for the love of Christ.

 

[adumbrodeus]

D3 player switches to a character who can abuse Norfair.

GGs.

The discussion is assuming "any competent DDD" will always win. Assuming a character that abuses Norfair is chosen, you're still not gonna get anywhere near the level of advantage that DDD has on stages that he can infinite with impunity.


You can still get an awful obviously, but not quite the auto-lose that it is.



Also, without infinite it's still a bad MU but nowhere near as bad.

 

[Judo777]

DK counterpicks Norfair.


GGs.

Ok DK cps norgair holy crap it will n ow be much more difficult landing the standing grab. If he plays right i might not even ever get it..... its a good thing however that i get a cp too so aslong as i win game 1 its SV or FD take ur pick.

 

[fkacyan]

The discussion is assuming "any competent DDD" will always win. Assuming a character that abuses Norfair is chosen, you're still not gonna get anywhere near the level of advantage that DDD has on stages that he can infinite with impunity.


You can still get an awful obviously, but not quite the auto-lose that it is.



Also, without infinite it's still a bad MU but nowhere near as bad.

So your chance of taking a stock goes from 0% to like 2% against a competent player. Still not an MU you ever want to play if you can avoid it.

 

[adumbrodeus]

So your chance of taking a stock goes from 0% to like 2% against a competent player. Still not an MU you ever want to play if you can avoid it.

With a different MU depends on the MU, but honestly norfair emphasizes mobility too much, and the hazards are too disruptive, I see it as basically a chaingrab on that stage, useful, but the MU goes to something more akin to infinite-banned games.

 

[cutter]

DDD vs. DK reminds me a lot of Melee Sheik against a lot of the characters she can chaingrab (Yoshi, Roy, Pichu, G&W, etc. etc.). The matchup is already unbearably hard for those characters to begin with, and the chaingrab rubs salt in the wounds by essentially making the matchup hopelesss.

 

[ElDominio]

D3 player switches to a character who can abuse Norfair.

GGs.

A.K.A.

D3 player switches to MK.

GGs

and it's on-topic to boot.

I'm on a roll!!!!

And I like double space

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

DK counterpicks Norfair.


GGs.

This would indeed make it harder. The solution: ban norfair. :V

D3 player switches to a character who can abuse Norfair.

GGs.

Let me be perfectly honest-if I'm not D3, I doubt I could beat a good DK.

 

[Ripple]

I wish they would patch characters in brawl. make D3 unable to buffer a grab after a throw would be nice

 

[adumbrodeus]

So... he takes you to RC or Brinstar? Fine, be that way.

I wish they would patch characters in brawl. make D3 unable to buffer a grab after a throw would be nice

That would just make it more difficult, the solution? Increase variable knockback!

 

[link2702]

I wish they would patch characters in brawl. make D3 unable to buffer a grab after a throw would be nice

lots of folks wish nintendo could officially patch brawl, then chances are we wouldn't be having this discussion about this annoying little masked bat of hell to begin with, as nintendo would probably fix em...

oh who am i kidding, nintendo puts the casual/item matches and players first before competitive players, if brawl could be patched chances are nintendo might end up making MK even more broken then he already is now.

 

[salaboB]

So... he takes you to RC or Brinstar? Fine, be that way.

It's still one match on a neutral, DK's cp, then DDD's cp to wherever he wants to massacre DK at for the win.

Actually, this is the same problem with the argument about cp'ing MK to a worse stage, you only can do that once so you have to beat him on the first neutral stage (Stages that MK tends to like just fine) or he'll just get to cp you to a bigger advantage against you even if you beat him on your pick.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Perhaps a larger starter list would help with that?

 

[fkacyan]

Perhaps a larger starter list would help with that?

Given that we're using a stage strike system, MK could easily strike the stages you do better than him on and never give you a chance to play them R1.

Also, BPC is a trip*** on /v/! Never woulda guessed.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Talking about the DDD vs. DK mu.

 

[fkacyan]

Talking about the DDD vs. DK mu.

I don't think there is a single stage in the game where DK beats D3.

Why is this even a topic of discussion?

 

[Tommy_G]

Why is this even a topic of discussion?

Because this thread is sooooo useful....

I swear I've seen a character specific board on smashboards somewhere. I must have been mistaken since here is where all of the character specific discussion is taking place.

You guys still talking?

100th post in this thread. XD

P.S. D3 wrecks DK everywhere. Norfair promotes camping. MLG wanted it because they thought it promoted aggression lolz no.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Given that we're using a stage strike system, MK could easily strike the stages you do better than him on and never give you a chance to play them R1.

Also, BPC is a trip*** on /v/! Never woulda guessed.

I don't visit /v/ other than to publicize B-... It's just /b/ mostly, and there I rarely trip. :V

Oh right topic. Ban MK.

 

[Kewkky]

Even in Norfair, D3 can hit DK real hard. Grab DK whenever he hits DDD's shield and is grabbable, dthrow infinte, b/fthrow to the lava wall and uair, GGs. He could even DJ nair and DK would have to take the hit or die of the side due to the lava wall's knockback. Or, D3 could just infinite DK until the bottom lava pool rises and hits them both, DK will die while D3 survives... Or, the huge lava wall will hit them both and DK will die while D3 survives, and Lord have mercy if they're both inside the capsule by a strange twist of fate.

D3 could just camp the bottom platform while DK tries to hit him from the higher platforms. his way D# doesn't have to fear DK's aerials. If DK tries to hit D3, he's either landing on the bottom platform, dropping from the ledge, or rising from the ledge... All of which are very bad for DK. If DK doublejumps in front od D3 and does a rising bair on his shield, then the D3 could just grab DK right then and there... For this to be possible, all it takes is for the D3 to know how to abuse the stage properly, something that should come naturally to a top D3 player when he plays around a bit there.


More or less the same concept applies to Brinstar, except there's no lava walls, just rising lava pools... In RC, D3 does his standing infinite, then his normal running CG when the camera's about to leave them in the magnifying glass, then a throw off to the side. What other place can DK use to CP against D3, besides Norfair/Brinstar/RC?


I think non-campy MKs are very fun to watch. If only MK wasn't able to play gay, I'd be very happy with the metagame... I enjoyed Atomsk vs ADHD a lot, too bad that stuff like M2K vs Gnes will keep happening anyway until something is done.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I don't think there is a single stage in the game where DK beats D3.

Why is this even a topic of discussion?

Metaphor I believe. I believe the point is, people are saying that the CP system is irrelevant (comparing it how MK wins on every stage). While it's true that the only disadvantages in total MK has (on CP) are arguable, there are certainly stages that he doesn't manipulate as well as other characters in generally, which significantly lessons the natural advantage that MK has as a character.


And of course you're right, just pointing out that there are a number of stages where it's possible for DK to win without the DDD being unconscious.

 

[Kitamerby]

I don't think there is a single stage in the game where DK beats D3.

Why is this even a topic of discussion?

Mario Bros.

DK has more options to counter the projectiles, and better mobility to grab the turtles and crabs before DDD can.

 

[fkacyan]

I don't visit /v/ other than to publicize B-... It's just /b/ mostly, and there I rarely trip. :V

Oh right topic. Ban MK.

So you Anon posted the topic, and then trip***ged it up to advertise? 8|

On topic, lawls@kitamerby. If he landed a grab he would autohit the crabs into DK. That would be humorous.

 

[Kitamerby]

So you Anon posted the topic, and then trip***ged it up to advertise? 8|

On topic, lawls@kitamerby. If he landed a grab he would autohit the crabs into DK. That would be humorous.

Works both ways though!

 

[MKOwnage]

And maybe if you tried maining any A Tier you would realize how broken MK really is.

Lawlz Im actually maining Peach now. I still don't have a problem with him.
And yes Ivysaur does suck.

 

[etecoon]

Lawlz Im actually maining Peach now. I still don't have a problem with him.

Location: Montana

that might be your problem</unnecessary regional diss>

 

[Kewkky]

that might be your problem

It's not a diss, it's true. He has no problem vs MK because none of the proven good MKs are there... Try using Peach in a national-sized tourney and tell me how you do against MK there, you'll definitely pique my curiosity if you still do as well against them.

 

[Judo777]

It's not a diss, it's true. He has no problem vs MK because none of the proven good MKs are there... Try using Peach in a national-sized tourney and tell me how you do against MK there, you'll definitely pique my curiosity if you still do as well against them.

^^^ this although i think its funny how peaches and olimars complain about like 6/4 matchups against them lol welcome to the average matchup of everyone below like B tier.

maybe below C tier but still.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

To me (and this is an issue, since many people will never feel this way), a character that lacks even or bad matchups is detrimental to the game.

As an example, I'll show scenarios involving character choice, and why MK limits the game (in my opinion)

In this scenario, MK loses to no one, or goes even with anyone. Essentially, there is ZERO, NONE, NO reason to not pick meta knight. You might as well play chess, where everyone is limited to the same options (MKs options). More MK players are coming up, and I believe it will continue until this ame is almost entirely MK dittos. While there is nothing wrong with a ditto of any kind specifically, when the entire game is based upon this, you remove an aspect of gameplay from Brawl: the character choice.

Compare this to a (hypothetical) metagame I am about to illustrate:

Snake is the best character in the MK banned metagame. Picking snake is the most logical option, but is not a complete trump. D3, Falco, and Pikachu all have favorable (though not by much, it is there) matchups against Snake. So if I expect a tournament to be loaded with Snkaes, I can pick one of these characters to gain an advantage. And because of this, people can expect to Play Ice Climbers to have an advantage against these characters, because I expect people to prey on Snakes weaknesses. But in turn, I lose to Snakes, since snake beats ICs. There are of course a bunch of other viable characters, but this goes to show a point, it adds (or rather MK removes) an aspect of gameplay to Brawl. Instead of having an entirely surefire way of picking characters, it adds the aspect of characters choice, and character choice is a skill in itself.

I've noticed this as well, but I'm trying to understand how other games that have the same problem, Melee, 64, SF4, SF3S, BB, etc. can get away with it, without the meta game falling apart.

 

[salaboB]

I've noticed this as well, but I'm trying to understand how other games that have the same problem, Melee, 64, SF4, SF3S, BB, etc. can get away with it, without the meta game falling apart.

Well, Melee has even matchups around the top -- who exactly dominates all the other top characters, such that you could defend saying "No even matchups"? (I may be wrong on this, I'm pretty out of touch with where Melee's metagame settled. In either case, it also goes into the next point.)

Additionally, it's probably because player skill is more easily able to overcome a slight imbalance in a MU in non-Brawl games- one mistake, even with the better character, can cost you that round. So you only have to capitalize on one error in the 40:60 MU to win. Their best characters may also have some true neutral MUs to help keep them in check.

Let's look at Brawl:

One error on MK's part costs him a tiny bit of damage. Then he's recovering, and the stage resets. So to overcome the 40:60 MU in Brawl is comparable to winning a 40:60 MU in another game 10+ times in the course of the game, based on number of mistakes each player has to make. Any slight disadvantage is just drastically magnified in Brawl because, quite simply, mistakes you make can't really be capitalized on for punishment so your opponent gets to hammer you with their advantages over, and over, and over again and you have to fight it the entire time.

But I still think we judge MU ratios based on the one mistake allowing a kill mentality (ie, many other games), and not Brawl's actual playing out (Five+ mistakes (Depending on situation, of course) before you're going to die to it). And the advantaged MU, even a near even one like 55:45, gets a nice buffer on having an easier time not making mistakes over the course of a Brawl match.

 

[Mota]

I've noticed this as well, but I'm trying to understand how other games that have the same problem, Melee, 64, SF4, SF3S, BB, etc. can get away with it, without the meta game falling apart.

Game physics, mainly combos.

In brawl it's more just trading blows, you 'get in', hit once, maybe twice and things reset back to neutral. Whereas in 64 and Melee, if you're able to 'get in' you can rack up stacks of damage or even 0-death. So even if there is a dominant character, one correct prediction can change the whole match around, just watch a Smash N64 match.

 

[ShadowLink84]

N64=0-death

 

[Kitamerby]

N64 = almost always 0-Death or at least stupid amounts of damage. Because of that fact, the game is somewhat more balanced because everyone gays each other nearly equally except for Samus. The big dividing factors between characters are how easily they can set up a combo, and how versatile their combo tools are at following terrain. <<

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Well, Melee has even matchups around the top -- who exactly dominates all the other top characters, such that you could defend saying "No even matchups"? (I may be wrong on this, I'm pretty out of touch with where Melee's metagame settled. In either case, it also goes into the next point.)

Additionally, it's probably because player skill is more easily able to overcome a slight imbalance in a MU in non-Brawl games- one mistake, even with the better character, can cost you that round. So you only have to capitalize on one error in the 40:60 MU to win. Their best characters may also have some true neutral MUs to help keep them in check.

Let's look at Brawl:

One error on MK's part costs him a tiny bit of damage. Then he's recovering, and the stage resets. So to overcome the 40:60 MU in Brawl is comparable to winning a 40:60 MU in another game 10+ times in the course of the game, based on number of mistakes each player has to make. Any slight disadvantage is just drastically magnified in Brawl because, quite simply, mistakes you make can't really be capitalized on for punishment so your opponent gets to hammer you with their advantages over, and over, and over again and you have to fight it the entire time.

But I still think we judge MU ratios based on the one mistake allowing a kill mentality (ie, many other games), and not Brawl's actual playing out (Five+ mistakes (Depending on situation, of course) before you're going to die to it). And the advantaged MU, even a near even one like 55:45, gets a nice buffer on having an easier time not making mistakes over the course of a Brawl match.

THANK YOU.

People wonder why Sagat is fine, why Fox is fine in Melee, why Pika is fine in 64... This is why. MK's "55-45"s are not anywhere near as easy for the 45 as a 55-45 in Melee, SF, etc.

 

[1048576]

Well that's one reason anyway. Let's not give the impression that it's the only one.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Well, Melee has even matchups around the top -- who exactly dominates all the other top characters, such that you could defend saying "No even matchups"? (I may be wrong on this, I'm pretty out of touch with where Melee's metagame settled. In either case, it also goes into the next point.)

Additionally, it's probably because player skill is more easily able to overcome a slight imbalance in a MU in non-Brawl games- one mistake, even with the better character, can cost you that round. So you only have to capitalize on one error in the 40:60 MU to win. Their best characters may also have some true neutral MUs to help keep them in check.

Let's look at Brawl:

One error on MK's part costs him a tiny bit of damage. Then he's recovering, and the stage resets. So to overcome the 40:60 MU in Brawl is comparable to winning a 40:60 MU in another game 10+ times in the course of the game, based on number of mistakes each player has to make. Any slight disadvantage is just drastically magnified in Brawl because, quite simply, mistakes you make can't really be capitalized on for punishment so your opponent gets to hammer you with their advantages over, and over, and over again and you have to fight it the entire time.

But I still think we judge MU ratios based on the one mistake allowing a kill mentality (ie, many other games), and not Brawl's actual playing out (Five+ mistakes (Depending on situation, of course) before you're going to die to it). And the advantaged MU, even a near even one like 55:45, gets a nice buffer on having an easier time not making mistakes over the course of a Brawl match.

I meant a character with no bad MUs. While there is a large influx of the character the meta-game doesn't fall apart.

For MK he has only one MU that people seem to agree is even, Snake.

Then there are the debateable evens, Falco, Diddy being the main ones, even then these are extremely questionable.

So MK had one even that most people agree on and two that are questionable, so we have Yun, Sagat, Fox, Pika, etc. who have simular MU spreads, they don't break the game in half.

Sagat throws his advantage of high damage output, amazing Ultra, his knee at everyone and the cast can't do much about it. The ones that go eve either outzone him, Akuma, Dhalism, or man through it to give it back, Ryu.

 

[Big-Cat]

Game physics, mainly combos.

In brawl it's more just trading blows, you 'get in', hit once, maybe twice and things reset back to neutral. Whereas in 64 and Melee, if you're able to 'get in' you can rack up stacks of damage or even 0-death. So even if there is a dominant character, one correct prediction can change the whole match around, just watch a Smash N64 match.

Pretty much this. If mistakes had larger consequences in Brawl, we would not be having this issue with Meta Knight.