Official Metaknight Discussion

[PottyJokes]

metaknight is cheapo

 

[Spelt]

I asked KGB if meta knight should be banned and they said:

"There are no reason to ban Meta Knight because he is only a character in a video game. Enjoy."

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I asked KGB if meta knight should be banned and they said:

"There are no reason to ban Meta Knight because he is only a character in a video game. Enjoy."

Who is KGB?

 

[salaboB]

I meant a character with no bad MUs. While there is a large influx of the character the meta-game doesn't fall apart.

For MK he has only one MU that people seem to agree is even, Snake.

Then there are the debateable evens, Falco, Diddy being the main ones, even then these are extremely questionable.

So MK had one even that most people agree on and two that are questionable, so we have Yun, Sagat, Fox, Pika, etc. who have simular MU spreads, they don't break the game in half.

Sagat throws his advantage of high damage output, amazing Ultra, his knee at everyone and the cast can't do much about it. The ones that go eve either outzone him, Akuma, Dhalism, or man through it to give it back, Ryu.

I see you ignored the second half of my post. Basically it is my opinion that:

Other games a 40:60 MU is more winnable because your opponent only has to make one mistake for you to take the round away from them. In Brawl, one mistake results in light punishment but rarely a stock loss -- so you have to regain the advantage in that 40:60 MU over, and over, and over again.

In other words, we judge MUs based on "One mistake costs you the round" because that's what people are used to thinking in, but that doesn't happen in Brawl so our numbers are almost all misleading for true MU difficulty.

 

[Spelt]

Who is KGB?

text message service that answers questions.
basically it's a guy behind a computer googling your question and then charging you a dollar for a google result.

 

[demonictoonlink]

OOO!!! I'll ask chacha! One sec.

Also, chacha says Diddy Kong is the best character.

edit:
"Not sure why Meta Knight would be banned. I'm gonna say no."


They didn't even try. As always.

 

[Tommy_G]

Matchups are suppose to mean: if every 10 matches, character one wins 4 matches and character two wins 6 matches with both players playing at similar skill levels, then the match-up is 4:6.

4:6 cannot be different from 4:6.

Pretty much this. If mistakes had larger consequences in Brawl, we would not be having this issue with Meta Knight.

This happens at high level of play.

We'd have more problems with Snake if this was truly the case.

 

[Tien2500]

Matchups are suppose to mean if its a 4:6, for every 10 matches, character 1 wins 4 and character 2 wins 6 with both players playing at similar skill levels.

4:6 cannot be different from 4:6.

Matchup ratios don't work the way they're supposed to. If there is a 70:30 matchup, the character on the 30 end will win much less than 30% of the time. You can't take something that is not probability based and try make it probability based. Also in Smash you have stage selection which further complicates matters. If you win your first match against Sagat, he won't pick counterpick Rainbow Cruise on you.

 

[DMG]

What people are saying is that the way we personally evaluate matchup difficulty follows too closely to other fighting games because of the differences in punishment/advantages being put into play over and over through a grind. 6:4 is a 6:4. With that said, there's a good chance that a lot of these 55:45's are really 6:4, and the 65:35s as 7:3 or stuff along those lines.

Concerning the thing about 6:4... that depends. If a character has a matchup advantage, that is believed to be 6:4, why is he losing those 4 games? If he exploited the advantages that won him the first 6 games, he shouldn't lose those 4 games. Just theory talk lol

 

[Flayl]

Because the game is still decided more by reads and human error than character advantages.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

The thing is that the brawl community decided to display matchups ratio as advantage in-game.
A 60/40 matchup means you have a 60/40 advantage in a match, at least in brawl.

 

[DMG]

To some extent, yes and no. I feel that our community is "shy" about playing gay compared to other communities (No one cares that the Sagat or Seth just sits there and zones Zangief, they expect and support playing like that. You get a MK to Dair camp or plank and all hell breaks loose.) and that we as a whole impair our ability to play the game to the fullest through rules and the mentality we bring to the table when we play. I think that if we played gayer, we would see less close sets between good players barring them basically having an even matchup over and over (AKA If your character has a 6:4 disadvantage against your opponent, assuming he plays gay you would expect for him to win 2-0 last stock last hit instead of a lot of sets I see where it's 2-1 swinging either direction or you would only have a close set with him if you were noticeably better).

I think that Brawl requires you to think more frequently, with more focus on long term goals that most fighters, and that this in turn requires you as a player to make crucial decisions more often. Frankly there's a lot more work for you to do/actions to perform to win in Brawl compared to most fighters, so there is an increased burden on the players and in turn they have to play better for longer during a game or set to be successful (barring a ******** matchup in your favor that is basically auto win).

Character advantages are something I don't think many people truly abuse to the fullest, so to directly compare or try and determine what decides games the most would probably be futile until people picked it up and displayed character advantages better. I think people are just scratching the surface of some character potentials.

 

[Judo777]

Matchups are suppose to mean: if every 10 matches, character one wins 4 matches and character two wins 6 matches with both players playing at similar skill levels, then the match-up is 4:6.

4:6 cannot be different from 4:6.



This happens at high level of play.

We'd have more problems with Snake if this was truly the case.

That IS the reason snake is so good lol. Yea people know that snakes tilts are great and he has sick stage control but everyone knows that the main reason snake is so good is because he exploits the very system of consequences of punishment.

Snake's ftilt does 21%! thats insane! considering snake has ridiculous kill power already and u die at 140 if u play right every tiny mistake or mis-spacing u make is at least 1/7 of a stock. Snake on the other hand lives to about 180-200% every stock so every time he screws up and u can deal like 12% sweet just 18 more mistakes to go. snakes weight class is what makes him so devistating. Thats why a great snake tactic is just to grenade trade everything because he'll freaking win when he does that.

 

[Mister Eric]

To some extent, yes and no. I feel that our community is "shy" about playing gay compared to other communities (No one cares that the Sagat or Seth just sits there and zones Zangief, they expect and support playing like that. You get a MK to Dair camp or plank and all hell breaks loose.) and that we as a whole impair our ability to play the game to the fullest through rules and the mentality we bring to the table when we play. I think that if we played gayer, we would see less close sets between good players barring them basically having an even matchup over and over (AKA If your character has a 6:4 disadvantage against your opponent, assuming he plays gay you would expect for him to win 2-0 last stock last hit instead of a lot of sets I see where it's 2-1 swinging either direction or you would only have a close set with him if you were noticeably better).

I think that Brawl requires you to think more frequently, with more focus on long term goals that most fighters, and that this in turn requires you as a player to make crucial decisions more often. Frankly there's a lot more work for you to do/actions to perform to win in Brawl compared to most fighters, so there is an increased burden on the players and in turn they have to play better for longer during a game or set to be successful (barring a ******** matchup in your favor that is basically auto win).

Character advantages are something I don't think many people truly abuse to the fullest, so to directly compare or try and determine what decides games the most would probably be futile until people picked it up and displayed character advantages better. I think people are just scratching the surface of some character potentials.

I don't browse this thread much due to all the bias.
But, well put.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I think like half of low tier isn't really going to end up low tier by the end, to sort of agree with what DMG is saying.

 

[fkacyan]

I think like half of low tier isn't really going to end up low tier by the end, to sort of agree with what DMG is saying.

I think he also makes the (rather good) point that a lot of our matchups might have been evaluated incorrectly because we've been playing them wrong.

 

[Justblaze647]

I think he also makes the (rather good) point that a lot of our matchups might have been evaluated incorrectly because we've been playing them wrong.

BBR's supposed to release an official BBR created MU chart....

Sometime in the near infinity

 

[Soulwithlife]

I find this whole banning meta knight thing pretty stupid.
I mean, how exactly is he 'broken'?
A characters strength depends on the skill of the user. Even if you get a top tier character (meta knight) and give him to a random dude in the street, that won't instantly make him better will it?
No, you need training to use characters.
And if people train and train as meta knight and they come up with good combo's and techniques in which to best use his character, why is that bad on meta knight? Surely, the glory goes to the people who thought up the various techniques to use. Is this not the same as all other characters? Don't Ganondorf players also come up with new ways and techniques to best their opponents and gain the upper hand?
Does that mean Ganondorf should also be banned?
Hmph, thats my point of view anyway.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I find this whole banning meta knight thing pretty stupid.
I mean, how exactly is he 'broken'?
A characters strength depends on the skill of the user. Even if you get a top tier character (meta knight) and give him to a random dude in the street, that won't instantly make him better will it?
No, you need training to use characters.
And if people train and train as meta knight and they come up with good combo's and techniques in which to best use his character, why is that bad on meta knight? Surely, the glory goes to the people who thought up the various techniques to use. Is this not the same as all other characters? Don't Ganondorf players also come up with new ways and techniques to best their opponents and gain the upper hand?
Does that mean Ganondorf should also be banned?
Hmph, thats my point of view anyway.

I <3 Ignorance.

 

[Conviction]

I find this whole banning meta knight thing pretty stupid.
I mean, how exactly is he 'broken'?
A characters strength depends on the skill of the user. Even if you get a top tier character (meta knight) and give him to a random dude in the street, that won't instantly make him better will it?
No, you need training to use characters.
And if people train and train as meta knight and they come up with good combo's and techniques in which to best use his character, why is that bad on meta knight? Surely, the glory goes to the people who thought up the various techniques to use. Is this not the same as all other characters? Don't Ganondorf players also come up with new ways and techniques to best their opponents and gain the upper hand?
Does that mean Ganondorf should also be banned?
Hmph, thats my point of view anyway.

Lol what? Your point of view is pretty OFF to this whole thread lol.
We are saying Meta Knight is significantly better than all the characters below him. Lol yes if you give some random kid on street a controller and Meta Knight yes he will be significantly better than starting of with any other character. What are you talking about with this combo and technique stuff? We are discussing the CHARACTER not a PERSON playing the character.
Hmph. a bad rant is a bad rant.

 

[Judo777]

I find this whole banning meta knight thing pretty stupid.
I mean, how exactly is he 'broken'?
A characters strength depends on the skill of the user. Even if you get a top tier character (meta knight) and give him to a random dude in the street, that won't instantly make him better will it?
No, you need training to use characters.
And if people train and train as meta knight and they come up with good combo's and techniques in which to best use his character, why is that bad on meta knight? Surely, the glory goes to the people who thought up the various techniques to use. Is this not the same as all other characters? Don't Ganondorf players also come up with new ways and techniques to best their opponents and gain the upper hand?
Does that mean Ganondorf should also be banned?
Hmph, thats my point of view anyway.

Lol at combos in brawl. Also yes i haave sat over a girl's shoulder who has never played the game before and told her some basic tips with MK and she has beat people who have been playing for a while now. And i dont mean in depth strategy i mean " Just hit the B button alot and fly at them to get damage. If they are in the air jump toward them and hit the A button a ton. When you need a kill hit down on the cstick like crazy. Dont hit b and end offstage" those tips lol

 

[Justblaze647]

Wow. Three people quote an obvious troll... back to back to back...

Good job boards. We win.

 

[Conviction]

I missed Rocket's post. If I saw it I wouldn't of responded.

 

[OverLade]

*wonders if people are still *********

*reads thread*

Yup...nothings changed.

 

[Conviction]

*wonders if people are still *********

*reads thread*

Yup...nothings changed.

>.>

<.<

He is on to us.

*Hides*

 

[etecoon]

Lol at combos in brawl. Also yes i haave sat over a girl's shoulder who has never played the game before and told her some basic tips with MK and she has beat people who have been playing for a while now. And i dont mean in depth strategy i mean " Just hit the B button alot and fly at them to get damage. If they are in the air jump toward them and hit the A button a ton. When you need a kill hit down on the cstick like crazy. Dont hit b and end offstage" those tips lol

name names plz

 

[ElDominio]

Lol at combos in brawl. Also yes i haave sat over a girl's shoulder who has never played the game before and told her some basic tips with MK and she has beat people who have been playing for a while now. And i dont mean in depth strategy i mean " Just hit the B button alot and fly at them to get damage. If they are in the air jump toward them and hit the A button a ton. When you need a kill hit down on the cstick like crazy. Dont hit b and end offstage" those tips lol

I've done this too lol. It actually works....

 

[TLMSheikant]

Those are bad players that probably dont know much about brawl. Really...if you just taught a noob how to use metaknight and the player is good, the noob wont have a chance...It's easier but still, if the noob beats u, quit brawl please.

 

[Judo777]

Those are bad players that probably dont know much about brawl. Really...if you just taught a noob how to use metaknight and the player is good, the noob wont have a chance...It's easier but still, if the noob beats u, quit brawl please.

Too bad thats an unwinnable argument. Because if i did teach some girl how to beat a good player u would just say "well then they aren't good" so i guess ill just give up.

Btw the person was my buddy. I mean id like to say that im not bad and he isnt very far behind so hes not a noob...... Hes beaten some pretty high placing people in tournament even a few on the PR of KY. He's just not very active.

 

[fkacyan]

I've done this too lol. It actually works....

It works against people who are awful.

 

[TLMSheikant]

It works against people who are awful.

Quoted for truth. Also, El dominio, ur trash lolol.

 

[Justblaze647]

Too bad thats an unwinnable argument. Because if i did teach some girl how to beat a good player u would just say "well then they aren't good" so i guess ill just give up.

Quoted for truth. Also, Thio, ur trash lolol.

C wut eye ded thar????

 

[PottyJokes]

lol @ judo actually being able to talk to girls.

and 1 time i taught this dude 5 year old press b with snake and uptilt for win and he win alot so he best ok time to bake this potato

 

[Zozefup]

Hes beaten some pretty high placing people in tournament even a few on the PR of KY. He's just not very active.

Are you from KY? Me too? What part are you from? Wanna play?

Also, MK is easy to use. But you cannot tell some noob to just spam tornado and she will go win a tournament. If MK is that easy, go to a tournament and win yourself some money.

 

[WindMajor]

Better player should usually win.

I thought this thread was about Metaknight.

@Eldominio and TLMSheikant: you're both trash, except for TLMSheikant, who is less trash because he mains a cool character. :D

 

[ElDominio]

I'm trash

I quoted you guys to remind you of your trashyness.

Those are you two. iRest m iCase.

 

[Collective of Bears]

Are people seriously still on the SS Banhammer for this? I'm shocked. Ok so Meta Knight is ridonkulously broken. So what? He's not completely unbearable, and far from being too good to be allowed. Now if this were Tekken 5 and Jinpachi were an available character I could understand but banning MK borders on stupid.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Are people seriously still on the SS Banhammer for this? I'm shocked. Ok so Meta Knight is ridonkulously broken. So what? He's not completely unbearable, and far from being too good to be allowed. Now if this were Tekken 5 and Jinpachi were an available character I could understand but banning MK borders on stupid.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9870164&postcount=9756

Or, alternatively:

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9870413&postcount=9760

Same thing, pretty much. Read it an you'll see that yes, MK is pretty much Jinpachi level.

 

[Turbo Ether]

I think MK 6/4's Snake and Falco.

 

[fkacyan]

I think MK 6/4's Snake and Falco.

Ehhh, those two matchups vary disgustingly based on stage layout. It's very hard to tell who wins, and by what margin, overall.

BTW you see the Cata class previews? Thoughts?