Official Metaknight Discussion

[AvaricePanda]

edit: much less important question.

Why are M2K, Ally, and ADHD statistical outliers? Yes, they're three of the best players, but why is that the cut-off? I just think it's odd that ADHD is considered an outlier, but players like Shadow who's #1 in NY, beat ADHD recently, won tournaments like Polybrawl with great competition, and is in one of the top, most consistent doubles teams in Atlantic North is considered, "just another MK."

Even if you consider M2K and Ally to be outliers, why ADHD? He's really good and wins nationals, but he isn't consistent in winning everything like M2K and Ally.
(iloveyouwyatt)





Anyway, I have a list of questions I just want answered because I'm not sure what some pro-ban opinions are; at least they seem to be differing from person to person.

1) What specific problems are MK causing to the Brawl community right now?
2) If we choose to not ban MK, what problems will it cause to the Brawl community?
3) What, other than increasing tournament diversity, will banning MK accomplish?
4) Why is increasing tournament diversity important to the Brawl community?
5) What is a temp-ban hoping to accomplish?



As I've said already, my concerns are:

1) MK isn't causing nearly enough of a concrete problem to the competitive Brawl community.
2) Supposing the competitive Brawl community could be improved from what it currently is, banning MK is too much of a leap of faith that could potentially do more harm than good.

and I want people to shed some light on why I might be wrong (or right).

 

[OverLade]

The ignorance in this thread is palpable.

 

[theunabletable]

Unable Table: Banning things to Balance out the game ONLY if it passes a certain threshold. You could ban something to improve Balance only once things were outta whack by a significant degree.

Then what is the threshold? And why that threshold?

Honestly, if you think that Dedede's Infinite is TOO destructive or powerful and you need to remove it for balance, then MK would need to have been removed ages ago.

I agree. I think the game would be better without D3s infinite and MK.

But, imo, that's not a logical reason to ban him or the infinite.

Which is why I am puzzled a lot of people who vote for MK to stay are all "Wahhh! Snifle! Pooooooooor Donkey Kong + friends! We need to make sure that they specifically do not lose that particular matchup that bad! He's such a meanie for grabbing them!".

I agree.

 

[DMG]

The threshold is what we should have properly determined ages ago, but alas we haven't. Whether it be because people could not agree on one, or just failure to be cautious and err on the safe side, there isn't an accepted threshold for us to judge the character on.

Our threshold for banning the character is basically if the majority feel he is broken (to their own standards). The whole MK debate is basically, for the most part, "I think MK is broken because he meets my qualifications as a broken character" or "I think MK is acceptable because he does not meet my qualifications as a broken character".

If you have something that is for the most part agreed on as the "passing line", then all you have to do is sit down and analyze whether he meets or does not meet that line. Honestly, it would take less than a month of sitting down and going over the character and looking at whether he does or does not do such. But that line is not drawn. So here we are, asking where the line should be.

It's subjective, of course. To determine how far is crossing the line. However, it's intended to be subjective, for communities to be given the task of deciding for themselves what they will put up with or what is acceptable to them. The problem is not that the decision is subjective (when it is intended to be to a certain degree), but that we cannot come together and agree on something and then just say "Does he pass or fail the test?" Who knows if he will pass or fail if you give him 2,000 varying tests or requirements.

 

[MarKO X]

I already answered the first two... you posed new questions...

3) What, other than increasing tournament diversity, will banning MK accomplish?
Generally, when a character is banned, he/she/it is banned for the sole purpose of character diversity.
Selectable boss characters (Gill in SF3:Third Strike, Shin Akuma and U.Rugal in CvS2) get banned because there's no reason to not to play these overpowered characters if they're allowed. In Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo, O.Sagat is soft banned in Japan because the Japanese don't counterpick, they stick with "one character. till death." O.Sagat invalidates A LOT of character on his own. I don't think Vega takes out too many characters. (Vega I heard is also softbanned in Japan, but I don't know exactly how true that is. I do know that Guile has a terrible matchup against Vega, but Guile's quite popular in Japan... and that's not the only **** matchup that Vega has... just trying to give some possibly unnecessary insight.)
So the basic reason of character bans is to promote character diversity. Although with Brawl, you can possibly say that banning Mk might bring some stages back into play, and you might say that the LGL will be obsolete, but I'm not sure that matters...

4) Why is increasing tournament diversity important to the Brawl community?
Because
- some people are tired of seeing MK dittos
- some people are tired of seeing MK vs *insert character here*, only to know that MK is going to win.
- some people feel (or know) that MK is holding their character back from putting on a winning performance at tourneys.
- I can do this for about an hour, but everything I could possibly list here is subjective... but so is everything else, right?

5) What is a temp-ban hoping to accomplish?
If I'm correct, temp-ban is hoping to see what an MK-less Brawl metagame would be like. Will there be a character that dominates like MK or even worse after MK is gone? Will MK's spot be even spread amongst the top 3 to 5 (maybe 6, i dunno, insert your frame of reference here) characters? Is there a character or five that MK is in fact keeping from the tourney scene that would make tourneys more about who's the better player with their character or who's the better player against MKs? These are some of the questions I think a temp-ban would be able to answer.

 

[Delvro]

Why are M2K, Ally, and ADHD statistical outliers? Yes, they're three of the best players, but why is that the cut-off? I just think it's odd that ADHD is considered an outlier, but players like Shadow who's #1 in NY, beat ADHD recently, won tournaments like Polybrawl with great competition, and is in one of the top, most consistent doubles teams in Atlantic North is considered, "just another MK."

Even if you consider M2K and Ally to be outliers, why ADHD? He's really good and wins nationals, but he isn't consistent in winning everything like M2K and Ally.
(iloveyouwyatt)

As far as I am aware, this is why M2K, Ally, and ADHD are considered outliers. If you look at the number 1 player for MK, Snake, and Diddy, you can see that all three of them are completely out of line with the rest of the pack. After all, M2k and Ally have (nearly) triple the score of the second highest ranked player of their respective characters, and ADHD has 6 times (!!!) the score of the second highest ranked Diddy Kong player in the nation.

Thus, they can safely be considered outliers.

 

[Crow!]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outlier

ADHD is even more of an outlier among the Diddy Kongs than M2K is among the MKs or Ally is among the Snakes.

 

[Raziek]

Yep, pretty much what they said. No other Diddy, MK, or Snake even comes close to replicating their results. I'll get to your big, long, question post when I'm not in class.

 

[Judo777]

The reason why D3's infinite is kinda seperate from things like pika fox and ganon sheik is this that with D3's infinite you can completely remove a player using said characters slight viability and cp them having only about 15 minutes of practice with D3 and just being a competent player.

Now the same is true for sheik however you cant remove any 1 quality to make that matchup fair you would have to take away needles chain, her gimping ability, ftilt and Gr stuff. Oh yea and her frame data

Pika against fox is also bad however foxes are pretty good at not getting grabbed and if they just wait til they are over 50% by like platform camping it can be avoided.

D3 if u ever get grabbbed the whole match its a stock and the infinite is stupid ez and only takes about 10 minutes to learn.

 

[AvaricePanda]

oh okay, thanks (about the outlier stuff). And actually, that helps me understand that graph because I was confused as to what the X axis was representing.

Yeah Marko, I know you already answered some of the questions, but it seems like some people are saying different things and I just want to know where people on pro-ban stand on this.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

Anyway, I have a list of questions I just want answered because I'm not sure what some pro-ban opinions are; at least they seem to be differing from person to person.

They will of course, you can't ever have a universal agreement. There are a multitude of reasons why people believe MK shouls be banned, and even if 90% of the community felt he should, I doubt it would be 60% of the community for a single reason.

1) What specific problems are MK causing to the Brawl community right now?

This one is hard to answer. Many people believe that he breaks the CP system, that the tier list is based on him, that rules are put in place to limit him, ect. If people believe MK is a problem (for whatever reason), they will complain about it, and often take some form of action (which has obviously happened)

This leads to a community war on the boards constantly, and creates rifts. While you might say that these rifts don't affect tournament attendance, you can't know for sure (AKA, is MK killing brawl, or is it other factors, or both?)

In my opinion, MK is highly disliked by the community. I live in New Mexico, where we have had MK banned since November 08. This happened because our tournament attendance literally dropped when people played against MKs and lost. They complained outside of the boards, they didn't go to tournies, ect. It shrunk our community. While we are an extreme example, it goes to illustrate that this can in fact happen, and I worry it will happen to other communities as well.

2) If we choose to not ban MK, what problems will it cause to the Brawl community?

As I said above, my region literally shrunk by about 6-8 people after MK being legal for a decent time. (and NM doesn't exactly have a big scene to begin with lol) when they felt MK was making them lose games they should have won. So, IMO, this can absolutely spread, and will.

3) What, other than increasing tournament diversity, will banning MK accomplish?

I believe it will bring back people who quit (subjective, my point of view). Brawl tournament attendance is down, and has been steadily declining for a long time. MK is the most controversial issue. Therefore, at least a temp ban is important to show if MK is in fact killing the community.

4) Why is increasing tournament diversity important to the Brawl community?

To me (and this is an issue, since many people will never feel this way), a character that lacks even or bad matchups is detrimental to the game.

As an example, I'll show scenarios involving character choice, and why MK limits the game (in my opinion)

In this scenario, MK loses to no one, or goes even with anyone. Essentially, there is ZERO, NONE, NO reason to not pick meta knight. You might as well play chess, where everyone is limited to the same options (MKs options). More MK players are coming up, and I believe it will continue until this ame is almost entirely MK dittos. While there is nothing wrong with a ditto of any kind specifically, when the entire game is based upon this, you remove an aspect of gameplay from Brawl: the character choice.

Compare this to a (hypothetical) metagame I am about to illustrate:

Snake is the best character in the MK banned metagame. Picking snake is the most logical option, but is not a complete trump. D3, Falco, and Pikachu all have favorable (though not by much, it is there) matchups against Snake. So if I expect a tournament to be loaded with Snkaes, I can pick one of these characters to gain an advantage. And because of this, people can expect to Play Ice Climbers to have an advantage against these characters, because I expect people to prey on Snakes weaknesses. But in turn, I lose to Snakes, since snake beats ICs. There are of course a bunch of other viable characters, but this goes to show a point, it adds (or rather MK removes) an aspect of gameplay to Brawl. Instead of having an entirely surefire way of picking characters, it adds the aspect of characters choice, and character choice is a skill in itself.

5) What is a temp-ban hoping to accomplish?

A temp ban can hope to show that I am right/wrong on the things I presented. Because no matter how much theory one side has on it's side, it can't be proven without testing (which is accomplished by a temporary ban)

There you go.

 

[MarKO X]

The reason why D3's infinite is kinda seperate from things like pika fox and ganon sheik is this that with D3's infinite you can completely remove a player using said characters slight viability and cp them having only about 15 minutes of practice with D3 and just being a competent player.

Now the same is true for sheik however you cant remove any 1 quality to make that matchup fair you would have to take away needles chain, her gimping ability, ftilt and Gr stuff. Oh yea and her frame data

Pika against fox is also bad however foxes are pretty good at not getting grabbed and if they just wait til they are over 50% by like platform camping it can be avoided.

D3 if u ever get grabbbed the whole match its a stock and the infinite is stupid ez and only takes about 10 minutes to learn.

Please don't hate me when I say this...

so?

I've also been told that Pika vs Fox without the grab is in fox's favor.... is that true, and if it is, why won't the Pika grab on Fox get banned? No reason that a character should get cp'd by learning a character in 15 minutes, right?

 

[Juushichi]

This thread needs to be closed.
MK isn't going anywhere. He didn't win Pound 4. Mk clearly isn't as much as a problem as we thought and the meta game will continue to move in a positive way.
MK= Melee Sheik.
Kthxclosethisthread

Sheik is not the best character in Melee. Just putting that out there.

 

[DMG]

How easy it is to infinite people with Dedede DOES NOT MATTER. What matters is their impact on the metagame.

What if IC's had super hard, complex, technically demanding Chain Grabs that ruined the competitive prospects of this game? Would we allow them because "Eh they are so hard to do, let's reward their hard work by allowing them to do it".

(I'm talking only about stuff feasible in the human realm. If they had something you could not realistically expect a Human to do, that would be different and you might allow it under those circumstances)

You don't ban a CG or Infinite for simply being easy to set up. What matters is the overall impact on the metagame it has. Think of the characters Dedede can do it to. How many of them are viable to start with? Bowser? Mario? Luigi? Samus? Maybe DK? (DK is stretching it as far as viability is concerned.) The overall impact on the metagame is not that big. You can ban it to improve attendance, or because it's "gay", or for other reasons. But no one is legitimately banning that because "Oh it's too destructive to the game, we need to remove it."

 

[Judo777]

How easy it is to infinite people with Dedede DOES NOT MATTER. What matters is their impact on the metagame.

What if IC's had super hard, complex, technically demanding Chain Grabs that ruined the competitive prospects of this game? Would we allow them because "Eh they are so hard to do, let's reward their hard work by allowing them to do it".

(I'm talking only about stuff feasible in the human realm. If they had something you could not realistically expect a Human to do, that would be different and you might allow it under those circumstances)

You don't ban a CG or Infinite for simply being easy to set up. What matters is the overall impact on the metagame it has. Think of the characters Dedede can do it to. How many of them are viable to start with? Bowser? Mario? Luigi? Samus? Maybe DK? (DK is stretching it as far as viability is concerned.) The overall impact on the metagame is not that big. You can ban it to improve attendance, or because it's "gay", or for other reasons. But no one is legitimately banning that because "Oh it's too destructive to the game, we need to remove it."

ok i see what ur saying althougth part of the reason DK and Luigi arent very viable is because of the infinite (MK being the other reason). You cant use Dk because anyone can just pick D3 and probably beat em. You are right though i guess difficulty shouldnt matter.

Also as i said the fox can avoid the grab and or put himself in positions where it wont work. For instance if fox stands near the ledge at 0% the pika cant cg him so he just has to try and avoid the grab til 50% and hes good which fox is pretty good at doing imo.

 

[Master Raven]

Guys I don't really know if Orlando is going to help with MK data considering MLG's using some very unorthodox rules that more or less inflate MK's advantages.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Guys I don't really know if Orlando is going to help with MK data considering MLG's using some very unorthodox rules that more or less inflate MK's advantages.

Well I dunno; if these are the rules for the major smash tournaments, it's likely to become the metagame. Plus, most of the rules limit MK as well.

Also, DDD's infinite is banned in a lot of places.

 

[Crow!]

Yes, the bans on Marth's infinites on Ness and Lucas will enable MK to rise to new levels. And the loss of wiimote based control schemes will render all other characters useless. [/sarcasm]

Those are the only unheard of rules in the set at this point. The random D3 bans are rare but certainly don't affect MK. While some of the stages used are not universally legal, each one is common in some regions, and it's really not clear whether MK is that much more absurd on the controversial stages than on most; I could name characters that might well CP MK to each of them, for instance.

IMO, the most controversial rule in the set is actually the Ledge Grab Limit, and that rule actively and intentionally detracts from Meta Knight's options. A close second is the ban on certain uses of the dimensional cape, which should be controversial, but the public at large has been more or less brainwashed to despise the technique so much that few are brave enough to even talk about it.

 

[jpak]

Hi, I'm new to all of this, but the LGL is an attempt to stop planking, and planking is simply dropping down from the ledge uair -> jump -> regrab ledge? And this should be banned due to the invincibility frames?

 

[Master Raven]

Yes, the bans on Marth's infinites on Ness and Lucas will enable MK to rise to new levels. And the loss of wiimote based control schemes will render all other characters useless. [/sarcasm]

You know, I didn't specifically speak of every rule.

I was being broad in my post but I was referring to stages, weird LGL use etc.

 

[BSP]

ok i see what ur saying althougth part of the reason DK and Luigi arent very viable is because of the infinite (MK being the other reason). You cant use Dk because anyone can just pick D3 and probably beat em. You are right though i guess difficulty shouldnt matter.

Luigi has other, bigger problems than just the infinite alone. Almost any character with a mobility advantage or superior range can keep him out, which pretty much shuts down his game (i.e. Marth, MK). Even if the infinite didn't exist, it wouldn't have much effect on Luigi.

DK...That's an opinion. I mean, it depends whether or not you believe that dk vs. d3 is so bad that you can pick D3 without using him at all and still beat a DK. IMO, on paper it is pretty easy for D3, but IDK what goes down in actual matches.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Luigi has other, bigger problems than just the infinite alone. Almost any character with a mobility advantage or superior range can keep him out, which pretty much shuts down his game (i.e. Marth, MK). Even if the infinite didn't exist, it wouldn't have much effect on Luigi.

DK...That's an opinion. I mean, it depends whether or not you believe that dk vs. d3 is so bad that you can pick D3 without using him at all and still beat a DK. IMO, on paper it is pretty easy for D3, but IDK what goes down in actual matches.

I honestly am not willing to believe that any DDD worth their salt could lose to a DK, infinite banned or not. With the infinite on, I would go for a $50 MM against Ook.

 

[BSP]

Yeah Budget, that's why I said that on paper, it looks very easy for D3. Maybe ask a DK main if it's that bad? I kinda agree with you, but since I haven't actually done it, I don't want to assume too much from paper.

 

[MKOwnage]

Why does everyone think Pound 4 means everything? We've been through this 50 times already. ADHD, M2K, and Ally can all reasonably be classified as statistical outliers, leaving the rest of the tournament OVERWHELMINGLY dominated by MK. Just because MK didn't win, doesn't mean he isn't causing problems.

Just because a bunch of good players have fallen for all the MK BS doesn't mean he is causing problems.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

EDIT: Never mind, this post is stupid.

@MKOwnage: explain what you mean?

 

[Ripple]

Yeah Budget, that's why I said that on paper, it looks very easy for D3. Maybe ask a DK main if it's that bad? I kinda agree with you, but since I haven't actually done it, I don't want to assume too much from paper.

its that bad.

 

[MKOwnage]

Many people have fallen for the idea that MK is "unstoppablez!!1" So they of course play as him in a major tourney. Obviously a lot of MKs means many are going to place top.

 

[GeneralWoodman]

Many people have fallen for the idea that MK is broken. So they of course play as him in a major tourney. Obviously a lot of MKs means many are going to place high, thus proving this idea because he is clearly broken.

Fixed because not everyone is ten years old and that is clearly not the idea going into a tourney match

 

[Masmasher@]

IM closig this topic! ha ha!

 

[Kitamerby]

I honestly am not willing to believe that any DDD worth their salt could lose to a DK, infinite banned or not. With the infinite on, I would go for a $50 MM against Ook.

You wanna put your money where your mouth is?

 

[MKOwnage]

Fixed because not everyone is ten years old and that is clearly not the idea going into a tourney match

Of course its the idea if it means money is on the line.

And you main Ivysaur. Perhaps if you tried maining a character that didn't suck you wouldn't hate MK so much.

 

[Kitamerby]

Of course its the idea if it means money is on the line.

And you main Ivysaur. Perhaps if you tried maining a character that didn't suck you wouldn't hate MK so much.

Ivysaur doesn't suck!

 

[Judo777]

I'd be willing to MM Ripple with D3 and i dont even play D3 often.

Ripple if u don't remember i was the sheik player that teamed with crash at vamps house when u and ook beat us remember?

 

[Ripple]

I remember, if the infinite is banned it's still winnable but very very hard.

if the infinite isn't banned then you probably won't even take a stock.

any knowledgeable DDD main will beat any DK with the infinite legal.

 

[ElDominio]

Of course its the idea if it means money is on the line.

And you main Ivysaur. Perhaps if you tried maining a character that didn't suck you wouldn't hate MK so much.

And maybe if you tried maining any A Tier you would realize how broken MK really is.

 

[Kitamerby]

And maybe if you tried maining any A Tier you would realize how broken MK really is.

OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH SNAP.

On a side note, tornado is overcentralizing and can completely dominate matchups all by itself. I say we ban it so that Ike can have a turn.

 

[ShadowLink84]

And maybe if you tried maining any A Tier you would realize how broken MK really is.

IT JUST GOT REAL!

Spoiler

Forum drama makes me lol

 

[VodkaHaze]

OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH SNAP.

On a side note, tornado is overcentralizing and can completely dominate matchups all by itself. I say we ban it so that Ike can have a turn.

Banning MK is a better idea than banning Whorenado. The MK Player might accidently use it, resulting in a disqualifica-- actually, ban Whorenado all together XD

 

[Ripple]

Banning MK is a better idea than banning Whorenado. The MK Player might accidently use it, resulting in a disqualifica-- actually, ban Whorenado all together XD

people don't mess upthat stuff. just like sheik in melee. people don't press side b or even down b

 

[Judo777]

people don't mess upthat stuff. just like sheik in melee. people don't press side b or even down b

I press down b sometimes lol when trying fall thought platform to charge needles. (oh noes zelda)