Official Metaknight Discussion

[Budget Player Cadet_]

The pit wasn't frame perfect.

No, he just wasn't doing it right. MKs is only unbeatable when he does it frame perfect or insanely close to it, which is impossible to do something like that frame perfect for 8 minutes.

DMG doesn't go in Pit's ledge game.

When would anyone try to ever run off and stage spike MK or Pit? It's like they had a death wish.
Same logic as if you try to bair mk. He will just run to the other ledge, and so can Pit.

I'm not arguing with Budget Player Cadet_ anymore. He's too much of a ******. All of his rebuttals were *wave hands in the air and scream "NO, NO, NO"*

Well, when I hear someone touting "facts" that don't hold water to the most simple theorycraft...

tommy id just like to point out that since pit loses his invincibility before his first uair is done people with very disjointed spikes can just spike him. If timed right ganon can spike pit during his uair i have seen it several times. And ike can slam right through pits uair (cause his aerials have trancendant priority). Gw can safely bair pit off stage because of his lengthy hitbox and unless u arent firing arrows he can use oil spill to cover both the ledge and one of ur get up options. If Gw screws up big deal pit cant gimp GW. Pikachu can tjolt all day and every now and then drop thunders on the ledge since pit cant stay invincible the whole time or even close and he cant be too far away from the ledge without possibly being gimped i think its quite easy to beat.

Pretty much, yeah. Pit's planking is provably realistically beatable when done perfectly. MK's isn't. It's also far harder to beat when not done perfectly.

 

[OverLade]

The pit wasn't frame perfect.

No, he just wasn't doing it right. MKs is only unbeatable when he does it frame perfect or insanely close to it, which is impossible to do something like that frame perfect for 8 minutes.

DMG doesn't go in Pit's ledge game.

I talked to DMG on AIM about the frame data of it. If you dash and powershield the Uair you can get to the ledge before he can regrab.

And MK's planking is relatively unbeatable when it's frame perfect because there's no guaranteed way to hit him from it and the window to ledgehog it is far smaller (I've never seen anyone powershield and Uair and ledgehog a planking MK).

 

[Tommy_G]

tommy id just like to point out that since pit loses his invincibility before his first uair is done people with very disjointed spikes can just spike him. If timed right ganon can spike pit during his uair i have seen it several times. And ike can slam right through pits uair (cause his aerials have trancendant priority). Gw can safely bair pit off stage because of his lengthy hitbox and unless u arent firing arrows he can use oil spill to cover both the ledge and one of ur get up options. If Gw screws up big deal pit cant gimp GW. Pikachu can tjolt all day and every now and then drop thunders on the ledge since pit cant stay invincible the whole time or even close and he cant be too far away from the ledge without possibly being gimped i think its quite easy to beat.

I love how non-MK players are perfect in all of their predictions and Pit gets predicted left and right.
All of these disjointed spikes you can see coming from a mile away.
Pikachu thunderjolting from across the stage= jump away and up b to regrab from a safe distance. Pikachu thunderjolting from close to you, glide under the stage.
Pit's uair beats GaW's bair from above.

MK mains are perfect.

 

[<π]

I love how non-MK players are perfect in all of their predictions and Pit gets predicted left and right.
All of these disjointed spikes you can see coming from a mile away.
Pikachu thunderjolting from across the stage= jump away and up b to regrab from a safe distance. Pikachu thunderjolting from close to you, glide under the stage.
Pit's uair beats GaW's bair from above.

MK mains are perfect.

Of course they are. MK is overpower for a very good reason Tommy-G.

 

[Judo777]

I love how non-MK players are perfect in all of their predictions and Pit gets predicted left and right.
All of these disjointed spikes you can see coming from a mile away.
Pikachu thunderjolting from across the stage= jump away and up b to regrab from a safe distance. Pikachu thunderjolting from close to you, glide under the stage.
Pit's uair beats GaW's bair from above.

MK mains are perfect.

Pits uair might sometimes beat GW dair but i doubt it always beats it considering like i said ganons dair can stuff it when timed right. And again ur missing the biggest point. We can run off stage and attack pit during his vulnerability frames cause we dont have to worry about auto gimp each time. And btw several character can run faster than MK or pit can glide. We jump over ur uair and attempt a bair, sure it might not land this time but who cares we'll just try it again next time cause we dont die every time we try. ZSS can attempt dsmash over and over on the pit if the pit stops uairing for risk of getting hit thats cool run off and try a bair if u dont get it oh well just try again. Oh an glides are equally predictable so when we see u start to glide some character can u beat u to the other end the only difference is unlike MK we can actually go offstage and try to stop pit once hes done gliding.

 

[demonictoonlink]

Actually M2K was right. Down B, even when done perfectly, MK won't be 100% invincible for the entire thing until he grabs the edge. Like you can drop down from the edge and use Down B and be invincible completely from ledge invincibility as it goes right into the move invincibility (so MK is invincible fully as he is becoming invisible and he has the moves regular Invincibility afterwards.) Apparently, MK either loses invincibility before he is visible, or when trying to sweetspot with that move you have to wait until his invincibility wears off before you can grab the edge. In either case, while the frame window is fairly small to hit MK, it does exist.

(I found or was given the wrong data for when MK can first grab the edge with Down B. GARBLE GARBLE)

As for Pit, I will do that sometime soon. I can almost guarantee you that his planking is quite beatable Tommy. But we'll wait for a bit and see.

I'm just quoting this because it needs to be read more.

 

[SGF rocker]

Someone care to explain the down B infinate cape glitch? I down be sometimes to get back on stage or do mindgames with an enemy. Is down B completely banned???

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Someone care to explain the down B infinate cape glitch? I down be sometimes to get back on stage or do mindgames with an enemy. Is down B completely banned???

Na just the infinite cape glitch. AN example of said glitch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0alFXJK5og

 

[AvaricePanda]

HAY GUYS

THIS DOESN'T MATTER!

LOLOLOLOLOLOL

I honestly don't see why this topic even exists. Any time something relatively constructive seems to come up (for example, Crow!'s long post and my long post before that), people derail the topic into "OMG MK CAN ABUSE EDC LOL RULE DISCREPANCIES," or right now, "MK VS. PIT PLANKING," which honestly makes no sense because:

1) I'd be willing to guess that at least 95% of the people in this thread are so adamant (stubborn?) that they will not change their viewpoints on any issue. For anything. Tommy G, you're wasting your time because BPC will never believe that Pit's planking is better. BPC, you're wasting your time because Tommy G will never believe that MKs planking is better. Theorycraft all you want, but nobody's opinions will change and all you're doing is keeping a (horrible) discussion(?) going that shouldn't be.

I'm half-willing to say that the same people are adamant on their viewpoints of MKs ban. IMO, we shouldn't even be seeing this as concrete pro-ban vs. anti-ban. We should be looking for the best solution for the competitive community because we're all going to be affected by this. However, despite what the opposing side brings up or considers, most people weasel their way into a paper thin argument to say "NO!"—hey, that's probably how this whole planking argument was brought up in the first place!

2) Even if we theorycrafted our way into a conclusion that MKs or Pit's planking is realistically better, it doesn't matter until people actual do it and it actually has an effect on tournament brackets. If your crutch on saying that MK/Pit's planking is sooooo broken, will render the game unplayable, etc, is one or two tournament matches, then you should reconsider what you're saying.

Crow, I'm still going to get to your reply eventually.

 

[lordvaati]

right now, the argument is less " MK is winning everything, let's ban him!" and more "too many people use MK, let's ban him!"

 

[MKOwnage]

right now, the argument is less " MK is winning everything, let's ban him!" and more "too many people use MK, let's ban him!"

This^
This entire thread needs to be closed.
Mk didn't win Pound 4. Why the hell should that spark an argument on banning him.
"Too many MK's day be swarmin mah meta gayme." Lets ban his assets! !!111

 

[Tommy_G]

GaWs Dair is very easy to see coming. Pit can simply avoid it and run or glide to the other ledge.

The only ones that can beat Pit's gliding to the other side of the stage are characters that can't get him off the ledge in the first place(Sonic, CFalcon, etc)

This^
This entire thread needs to be closed.
Mk didn't win Pound 4. Why the hell should that spark an argument on banning him.
"Too many MK's day be swarmin mah meta gayme." Lets his assets! !!111

2nd this^

 

[etecoon]

so are we banning ganondorf yet or what

 

[Tommy_G]

so are we banning ganondorf yet or what

I thought we were going to ban Jigglerpuff first.

 

[Chuee]

?
What happened to banning Zelda?

 

[demonictoonlink]

Ban everyone but top tier and no one would complain about MK.

(Top Tier as is A and S, though MK should be same tier.)

 

[DMG]

MK is only able to be CONSIDERED in the same tier as other characters if you put a LGL in play and have some kind of scrooging rule. AKA by the SBR ruleset, he is S tier.

I don't mind having an S tier character for Brawl. I'd rather have that than have a character everyone tells me I can't play gay with. I love playing gay, I want to do it with every character lol.

 

[Crow!]

Are some of you guys trying to get yourselves infracted for spam?

There are some people here who are having serious, intelligent discussion. That is the point of a forum.

 

[fkacyan]

Are some of you guys trying to get yourselves infracted for spam?

There are some people here who are having serious, intelligent discussion. That is the point of a forum.

Sadly, that discussion is for the most part limited to people in the BBR and people who would like to be in the BBR. Everybody else just uses this for +1 Postcount most of the time.

Another issue is that we've come to a consensus, for the most part; unless MLG Orlando shows that the character is obviously banworthy (I doubt this will happen), we need to investigate an MK-less metagame to determine if it's worth banning him. So there's not really much new discussion to be had anymore; a lot of the discussion is cyclical.

This thread really ought to be locked. We're not gaining anything by continuing to discuss MK specifically that we can't discuss in the MLG Ruleset thread on a more generalized basis.

 

[etecoon]

this thread should have been locked weeks if not months ago, the spam is every bit as productive as the people still taking this seriously at this point.

 

[Tommy_G]

Crow! this thread over-stayed its welcome for far too long.

Intellectual discussion has been thrown out the window by now from so much disrespect on posts with valid points.

 

[MarKO X]

it allows ppl to vent on the MK situation.
and keep ppl from making random MK threads.

i say keep it open. does postcount +1ing even matter?

 

[AvaricePanda]

User Name Posts
Overswarm 582
Budget Player Cadet_ 424
etecoon 329
MarKO X 328
adumbrodeus 318
Kewkky 275
Omni 248
Thiocyanide 236
Tien2500 217
rise 209
UltiMario 182
RDK 175
Spelt 162
Chuee 158
the unable table 157
RedHalberd 156
Orion* 149
ShadowLink84 141
Espy Kasrani 139
Flayl 138

^lol

Also, it's funny how most valid posts are altogether ignored.

Like Thio said, a lot of the discussion in this thread has been discussed before which has been discussed before.

 

[theunabletable]

Jesus I have 157 posts here?

How do you check that?

 

[Tarmogoyf]

Click on the number of posts in this thread while in The tactical subforum.

 

[etecoon]

I'm the highest posting troll!

at least the highest posting troll that's doing it on purpose anyway : p




so why isn't this thread locked yet

 

[Judo777]

Yea lets close this thread so we can stop talking about Mk and hope everyone forgets that we were contemplating a temp ban.............

Oh and um Tommy sheik is a character that can easily stop pits planking and runs fast enough to catch him on the other side. Needles and chain take care of this fairly well. not to mention she can grab the ledge very fast.

I have 1 quick question btw. Why does MK stop pits planking if his uair is really that good. As you should know mk has no special priority in the air when compared to other aerials as no aerials can clank together with few exceptions so MKs trancendant priority makes no difference. So why does MK stop pits planking so much better than others? MKs reach isnt greater than some other characters in the game and since reach is basically the only thing that matters when u look at aerial vs aerial priority. Marths reach is about as long on his dair. and so is D3 and lucarios. Why does Mk stop it so hard?

Correct answer is because MK (even more so than other character) can be offstage against pit without worrying about dying cause he ***** everyone in the air. he can keep trying over and over and the time u screw up and actually even if u dont he will probably kill u for it. However since many character can beat pit offstage i dont think that pit can effectively take advantage of that situation.

 

[etecoon]

Yea lets close this thread so we can stop talking about Mk and hope everyone forgets that we were contemplating a temp ban.............

that will be decided by the back room/MLG, and individual TO's and players for that matter, this thread is COMPLETELY USELESS

 

[BSP]

How about we just see what happens at MLG, and just decide from there?

 

[Judo777]

that will be decided by the back room/MLG, and individual TO's and players for that matter, this thread is COMPLETELY USELESS

Its obviously worth all of you guys checking up on it like 3 times a day. I mean why not keep it open its here so people dont open up threads in other areas.

 

[etecoon]

the highest poster here stopped like a month ago, the next highest poster doesn't go to tournaments, and I'm #3 when all I do is make ridiculous assertions that ganon needs to be banned, how do you not see the pattern of uselessness

 

[theunabletable]

How about we just see what happens at MLG, and just decide from there?

I can tell you what'll happen.

There'll be a ton of MKs and Snake's due to that stupid *** stage list.

 

[demonictoonlink]

Post count really should be removed in this thread to prevent spam. Like this!

 

[theunabletable]

Post count really should be removed in this thread to prevent spam. Like this!

I disagree.

Oh and I just got my 700th post... cool, I guess.

 

[Spelt]

I vote everyone shut up and go play pokemon.
how does anyone even care about brawl when there are things to catch and top % rattatas abound.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Sadly, that discussion is for the most part limited to people in the BBR and people who would like to be in the BBR. Everybody else just uses this for +1 Postcount most of the time.

Another issue is that we've come to a consensus, for the most part; unless MLG Orlando shows that the character is obviously banworthy (I doubt this will happen), we need to investigate an MK-less metagame to determine if it's worth banning him. So there's not really much new discussion to be had anymore; a lot of the discussion is cyclical.

This thread really ought to be locked. We're not gaining anything by continuing to discuss MK specifically that we can't discuss in the MLG Ruleset thread on a more generalized basis.

While I don't expect it to show he is broken either, I still wouldn't bet on it yet.

 

[MKOwnage]

So what about that Link?
Hes so horrible hes broken for being so bad.
Screw Jigglerpuff, ban L1nk

 

[theunabletable]

^Horrible? Ungimpable recovery (without big chance of getting killed), 1 in 25 chance of pulling a ****ing DEKU NUT and stunning ****, his bombs are ridiculous, his boomerang causes absolutely ridiculous shield pressure on its return trip and he can throw it so ****ing far that you'll either get hit or it'll go past you and **** you on the way back, frame traps with his arrows, moderately good combo potential, good at killing.

He's friggin' BROKEN

wait...

this is normal brawl we're talking about not brawl-

nvm Link's bad.

 

[Mota]

Wait whoa whoa...Ungimpable recovery in Brawl-? This I gotta see.

I agree with the pro-ban on Snake. I mean, it's like the designers got high one night, and overcompensated by taking Snakes original weight, hitboxes, damage output, knockback and doubled it for teh lulz.

Eaten too many Milky ways.

EDIT: Also, close this thread pl0x and wait after MLG to set up the poll. kthxbai

 

[theunabletable]

Wait whoa whoa...Ungimpable recovery in Brawl-? This I gotta see.

Well I've barely played as Link, but he gets launched so much further and the hitbox is so friggin' big, it's really really hard to stop.

And nooooo don't wait for after MLG. Wait for after something without a crazy *** ruleset. Maybe Apex or something. But MLG is gonna be infested with MK with that ruleset... It's gonna give pro-ban an excuse to ban him because of the results being filled with MKs, and most of anti-ban will probably just say that it's due to the ruleset (which we can't deny heavily favors MK) and isn't conclusive.

It won't do any good to put any importance on MLG in this debate, imo. Atleast right now with the way the current ruleset is...