Official Metaknight Discussion

[theunabletable]

Things that are on paper logical don't always pull through in person. Remember Dojo vs. DEHF at Genesis, and how there was actually a vote on whether or not Dojo should have been disqualified for air-camping?

Wait WHAT?

There was a poll on whether or not Dojo should've been DQ'd?

Can I have a link to this?

 

[AvaricePanda]

I heard it from multiple twitter accounts when everyone was following it, mainly Chibo's that there was a vote with the TOs and judges (chibo was evidently one of the voters). I think only 2 out of the 11 people voted that Dojo should have been DQd.

Could be wrong though, but I heard it from quite a bit of sources.

 

[Raziek]

Crow makes another amazing post. Amazing stuff.

 

[Cold Fusion]

In comparison to characters with good recoveries, it is easy to force characters with bad recoveries to grab the edge many times.

 

[AllyKnight]

I'll **** any marth, and all your childs.

 

[Tien2500]

I'll **** any marth, and all your childs.

O_o... how is it exactly that **** (a four letter word that rhymes with ham) gets censored but ****** children is fine.

 

[salaboB]

So let me turn the questions around.
Suppose Meta Knight did not exist in the game. Is there anything good, from a competitive point of view, that would happen by adding him in?
There's certainly no shortage of bad baggage associated with introducing him.

I would really like to hear this answered by someone (Ideally multiple people) that wants to keep MK in the game. Just an answer to whether MK being added to the game improves it in any positive way or not, if it had started without him.

O_o... how is it exactly that **** (a four letter word that rhymes with ham) gets censored but ****** children is fine.

Gamers are screwed up in some ways.

 

[MarKO X]

dam isnt censored.

 

[Tien2500]

dam isnt censored.

Dam isn't because a dam is what beavers build. But if you add an n to the word it is. See **** **** **** **** ****. **** **** ****.

 

[MarKO X]

omission is the worst thing to ever happen to the FCC
*insert a sentence that would obviously catch me an infraction here*

the poll to DQ Dojo was either 2 out of 9 or 2 out of 11 for the DQ, but yeah...
also, the replay had never surfaced. lol

and as far as the whole adding MK thing, the only real answer to that is this: adding MK keeps a certain character from superdominating worse than MK is now. that's assuming that a character does superdominate with MK gone. Who would that character be? Doesn't really matter because MK isn't keeping that character in check.

Spoiler

My guess is Pit. lol

Spoiler

And this is why: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUZhWwFF7f4&NR=1

Spoiler

Ok, obviously, that's not good enough reason, but I lol'd watching that entire match.

That's the only logical reason I see for adding MK to the game.

 

[swordgard]

omission is the worst thing to ever happen to the FCC
*insert a sentence that would obviously catch me an infraction here*

the poll to DQ Dojo was either 2 out of 9 or 2 out of 11 for the DQ, but yeah...
also, the replay had never surfaced. lol

and as far as the whole adding MK thing, the only real answer to that is this: adding MK keeps a certain character from superdominating worse than MK is now. that's assuming that a character does superdominate with MK gone. Who would that character be? Doesn't really matter because MK isn't keeping that character in check.

Spoiler

My guess is Pit. lol

Spoiler

And this is why: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUZhWwFF7f4&NR=1

Spoiler

Ok, obviously, that's not good enough reason, but I lol'd watching that entire match.

That's the only logical reason I see for adding MK to the game.

So naive. One of the best pit vs a decent ics. Yes, Pit won because he is secretly OP.


Right >.>

 

[hotgarbage]

Remember Dojo vs. DEHF at Genesis, and how there was actually a vote on whether or not Dojo should have been disqualified for air-camping?

Lol, that was so ridiculous ~_~. It wasn't much of a poll though, with available SBR members voting 9-2 in Dojo's favor or something. However the fact that the poll even took place is joketastic.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

So naive. One of the best pit vs a decent ics. Yes, Pit won because he is secretly OP.


Right >.>

Ok, obviously, that's not good enough reason, but I lol'd watching that entire match.

 

[fkacyan]

What scares me about Crow!'s post is that he predicts the exact same number of characters necessary for the proper counterpick game that I have. Get out of my head!

However, I do want to address one point on a serious note:

Suppose Meta Knight did not exist in the game. Is there anything good, from a competitive point of view, that would happen by adding him in?

People have tried asking this before, and it is as terrible a question now as it was every other time it was posed. I can't tell you what would be gained because we don't know the exact shape of the metagame without him, the same way you can't tell me for sure what we do gain by banning him.

 

[AvaricePanda]

I would really like to hear this answered by someone (Ideally multiple people) that wants to keep MK in the game. Just an answer to whether MK being added to the game improves it in any positive way or not, if it had started without him.

1) MK provides another character for people to play. We don't know how this would affect tournament results/dominance in the metagame mainly because we don't know how a non-MK metagame would play out over the course of two years. Obviously he makes some characters more viable and some less viable. However, how he actually plays out in certain region's results can't be said for sure. As we see now, some regions have had major problems with MK (NM, Gtan, etc) while others have done just fine with him and/or a ban of him at this point would reduce a lot of attendance numbers assuming all of the MKs quit (eastern MW, Atlantic North, etc).

2) MK forces some characters to adapt new playstyles to cope with him. From what I can tell, tough match-ups help a character's metagame grow quite a lot since they have to try to make them more winnable. Take for example, Diddy vs. Marth. In 08 and early 09 this was a match-up largely assumed to be 60-40 Marth or possibly one of his worst match-ups. In I think April of 2009, Le_Thien brought in and elaborated on the element of Diddy's mid-range game, and argued that because of it the match-up was even. While this caused some controversy, a couple months after, after many top Diddys beat top Marths and Diddys in general got better with the match-up, it was considered to be even.

Usually match-ups fluctuate or they become less in a character's favor over time. Match-ups that were at a point considered to be 65-35 one character may be 55-45 or 60-40 now. Granted, match-up numbers are subjective and mean differently from person to person, but in general match-ups have been more doable. Usually the only cases of the opposite happening is when 0-somethings or infinites have been discovered (for example, ZSS infinite on ROB). And after coping with these tough match-ups, some characters are able to apply that playstyle to many other characters (mid-range zoning helped Diddy with match-ups like Luigi and MK as well).

Having a top character like MK that provides a tough match-up for nearly every character might make the other character's metagames grow.

However, all of this is—what I said and what Crow! asked—is a very lightweight argument because it's all theory. We don't know what would happen in a two year non-MK brawl game, so we can't answer what adding MK would improve/subtract from the competitive community by adding him in.


This also just seems like picking at strings. We can theorycraft all we want, but this isn't analyzing what's actually happening now in the Brawl community. A question like this shouldn't have an effect on MKs ban because what MK does to the competitive community right now doesn't focus on "what-if" questions.

Also, salabo, since you asked that many people answer that question, I'll ask that you and many other people ask this question. As I've said multiple times, I just want to see where people stand on this.

What problems are MK causing to the Brawl competitive scene right now?
What is going to be accomplished by banning MK?

Namely it's the first question that I want people to answer, but the second kind of ties in with it.

 

[Judo777]

omission is the worst thing to ever happen to the FCC
*insert a sentence that would obviously catch me an infraction here*

the poll to DQ Dojo was either 2 out of 9 or 2 out of 11 for the DQ, but yeah...
also, the replay had never surfaced. lol

and as far as the whole adding MK thing, the only real answer to that is this: adding MK keeps a certain character from superdominating worse than MK is now. that's assuming that a character does superdominate with MK gone. Who would that character be? Doesn't really matter because MK isn't keeping that character in check.

Spoiler

My guess is Pit. lol

Spoiler

And this is why: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUZhWwFF7f4&NR=1

Spoiler

Ok, obviously, that's not good enough reason, but I lol'd watching that entire match.

That's the only logical reason I see for adding MK to the game.

Nah man pit wouldnt dominate GW just ***** him too freaking hard.

 

[1048576]

He's overcentralizing it due to his tournament dominance.

Instead of a 6 or 7 out of 39 character metagame, we have a 2 or 3 out of 39 character metagame (ADHD is clearly an outlier.) Hence, adding one character has actually subtracted from the available characters when you consider only tournament viable characters.

He also requires specific, arbitrary rules to keep Brawl from becoming a one character metagame, which some people view as a problem I guess.

Removing MK would remove a restrictive rule from the game and would increase the number of viable characters.

 

[Tommy_G]

For that Pit video, there were clearly ways around Pit planking, but if that was a MK, there wouldn't have been any options for IC.
*LOLno,sarcasm*
Pit is the best planker in the game.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

For that Pit video, there were clearly ways around Pit planking, but if that was a MK, there wouldn't have been any options for IC.
*LOLno,sarcasm*
Pit is the best planker in the game.

You're trolling, right? RIGHT?

 

[MarKO X]

You're trolling, right? RIGHT?

he's not trolling, he really thinks that Pit is the best planker.
outside of, you know, MK can do his upB after he gets hit, has a faster upair, etc.

lol

but no, hes not trollin.

 

[swordgard]

ADHD lost to atomsk, ally and shadows MK recently. MK2gud?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

ADHD lost to atomsk, ally and shadows MK recently. MK2gud?

Does this say something about ADHD, Atomsk/Ally/Shadow, or M2K? I honestly don't know... Does this happen regularly? What were the conditions? I mean, I hear ADHD loses to Shadow a lot, and I also hear that M2K is pretty bad against DDK...

 

[Tommy_G]

he's not trolling, he really thinks that Pit is the best planker.
outside of, you know, MK can do his upB after he gets hit, has a faster upair, etc.

lol

but no, hes not trollin.

Plankers aren't suppose to get hit.

Pit has a multihit unpowershieldable up air that either pushes you away from the ledge or shield pokes you and pulls you off. Unless you're someone with a really good recovery, good luck getting back to the stage.

In case you can almost get to the ledge to knock Pit off, he has an up B that makes him auto-sweetspot from pretty far and it has a wind hitbox to push you away.

Arrows force approaches.

The only one that can really get Pit off the ledge effectively is MK without risking getting gimped.
Lets ban MK......

 

[ElDominio]

Plankers aren't suppose to get hit.

Pit has a multihit unpowershieldable up air that either pushes you away from the ledge or shield pokes you and pulls you off. Unless you're someone with a really good recovery, good luck getting back to the stage.

In case you can almost get to the ledge to knock Pit off, he has an up B that makes him auto-sweetspot from pretty far and it has a wind hitbox to push you away.

Arrows force approaches.

The only one that can really get Pit off the ledge effectively is MK without risking getting gimped.
Lets ban MK......

Sawnik can side B over/under arrows and FF a Fair to get Pit off....

Good luck getting MK out tho

 

[Judo777]

Plankers aren't suppose to get hit.

Pit has a multihit unpowershieldable up air that either pushes you away from the ledge or shield pokes you and pulls you off. Unless you're someone with a really good recovery, good luck getting back to the stage.

In case you can almost get to the ledge to knock Pit off, he has an up B that makes him auto-sweetspot from pretty far and it has a wind hitbox to push you away.

Arrows force approaches.

The only one that can really get Pit off the ledge effectively is MK without risking getting gimped.
Lets ban MK......

Lol this is hilarious ur forgetting perhaps the most important aspect of MKs planking that doesnt apply to pit. When Mks planking u cant go offstage to get him or u freaking die. I go offstage and try to idk bair pit with someone and the pit reads it.... whats he gonna do dair me oh big freaking deal. Also pit aerials have alot more startup then MKs alot more! Lol at 2 frame uiar from mk. I hope i dont get hit with pits 9 frame bair or his 12 frame fair....... Also again GW can easily stop pit planking.

 

[GeneralWoodman]

i **** pits with my jigglypuff, jump over the planking pit and spam pound. he has to come on the stage or gets hit! :D

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Plankers aren't suppose to get hit.

Pit has a multihit unpowershieldable up air that either pushes you away from the ledge or shield pokes you and pulls you off. Unless you're someone with a really good recovery, good luck getting back to the stage.

In case you can almost get to the ledge to knock Pit off, he has an up B that makes him auto-sweetspot from pretty far and it has a wind hitbox to push you away.

Arrows force approaches.

The only one that can really get Pit off the ledge effectively is MK without risking getting gimped.
Lets ban MK......

...

You're kidding, right?

All right, let's look at the differences between Pit and MK's planking:
-Pit's uair, his main planking tool, takes quite a while and leaves him vulnerable. You can jump over and bair it pretty easily, and if you don't, oh well. Pit has no spikes, and no really good gimping tools as far as I'm aware. Plus, his recovery is easily gimped.
-Metaknight's Uair is blisteringly fast (one completely invincible, the second half invincible and then ledgegrab); a six-frame window is not much to nail him with a Bair in. As in, it's not realistically possible because he's covered from above so well. If you go offstage against MK, you DIE. He is also virtually ungimpable.
-Pit has a projectile to plank with, which leaves him vulnerable and is easily powershielded
-MK has no projectile. Not that much of a downside, seeing how lousy pit's is for this purpose.
-MK has 5 jumps and an upB with a very strong hitbox which he can do more than once if he's hit in between them.
-Pit has 3 jumps and if you hit him out of his upB (which has no hitbox), he dies.


Hmm... yeah, pit's planking is better than MK. Learn what you're talking about, then come back. *******. I can think of any number of ways to beat pit's planking, none to beat MK's.

 

[Tommy_G]

...

You're kidding, right?

All right, let's look at the differences between Pit and MK's planking:
-Pit's uair, his main planking tool, takes quite a while and leaves him vulnerable. You can jump over and bair it pretty easily, and if you don't, oh well. Pit has no spikes, and no really good gimping tools as far as I'm aware. Plus, his recovery is easily gimped.
-Metaknight's Uair is blisteringly fast (one completely invincible, the second half invincible and then ledgegrab); a six-frame window is not much to nail him with a Bair in. As in, it's not realistically possible because he's covered from above so well. If you go offstage against MK, you DIE. He is also virtually ungimpable.
-Pit has a projectile to plank with, which leaves him vulnerable and is easily powershielded
-MK has no projectile. Not that much of a downside, seeing how lousy pit's is for this purpose.
-MK has 5 jumps and an upB with a very strong hitbox which he can do more than once if he's hit in between them.
-Pit has 3 jumps and if you hit him out of his upB (which has no hitbox), he dies.


Hmm... yeah, pit's planking is better than MK. Learn what you're talking about, then come back. *******. I can think of any number of ways to beat pit's planking, none to beat MK's.

Beat MK's planking:
Run up, Powershield the uair, grab ledge, attack him with ledge invulnerability.

Sonic can't go under pit's arrows. Pit can angle them.
MK's uair wouldn't be used to gimp so don't use that comparing to Pit's down air for a gimping move.
Pit can angle the arrow to shield poke and stall out the arrow to avoid easy power shields.
If Pit doesn't get damage, he doesn't need good gimping tools. Fair and uair works well enough.
If you happen to get on his ledge, he'll just go under the stage.
Pit has a fast glide and an up b which can go under the stage to avoid getting gimped. Good luck hitting him twice under the stage.
I've seen both Pits and MKs get gimped. FOW gimped M2K in a match(ledgeguard gimp).

Is there any post you have arguing a point where you don't call the person you're arguing with by a name or talk to them like a 5 year old?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Beat MK's planking:
Run up, Powershield the uair, grab ledge, watch him dash over to the other side/glide under the stage to the other ledge while you are stuck in lag

Fix'd. It's been proven, without a doubt, that MK's planking is game-breaking and unbeatable.

Sonic can't go under pit's arrows. Pit can angle them.

No idea where this is coming from.

MK's uair wouldn't be used to gimp so don't use that comparing to Pit's down air for a gimping move.

Of course not. But if you attempt to run over and bair him, he jumps and dairs you. Suddenly, you are either dead or forced to recover against MK (AKA dead in 3...2...1...). If you don't... what are your options again, other than grab the ledge and make him go for the other one?

Pit can angle the arrow to shield poke and stall out the arrow to avoid easy power shields.

And at close range, it's still useless.

If Pit doesn't get damage, he doesn't need good gimping tools. Fair and uair works well enough.

Umm.... You're missing the point. You can hit Pit out of his pretty easily with most characters.

If you happen to get on his ledge, he'll just go under the stage.

You don't have to get on the ledge; stage spike the ****er.

Pit has a fast glide and an up b which can go under the stage to avoid getting gimped. Good luck hitting him twice under the stage.

See above.

I've seen both Pits and MKs get gimped. FOW gimped M2K in a match(ledgeguard gimp).

Is there any post you have arguing a point where you don't call the person you're arguing with by a name or talk to them like a 5 year old?

Look, I'm sorry, but when you put up such a ******** assertation as "MK does not have the best planking in the game" which is about as accurate and sensible as "MK is not the best character in the game", along with a history of genuinely stupid posts (like, Orion bad) then I feel no need to act as if you have a brain! Does anyone want to back me up or correct me? Other than TommyG, obviously.

 

[Turbo Ether]

What does MK specifically do to plank in an unbeatable way?

 

[salaboB]

What does MK specifically do to plank in an unbeatable way?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=267257

 

[iRJi]

Do not forget that MK can Down B back to the stage, and move before you are able to get off of the ledge. MK's planking is in fact, 100% unbeatable. Proven, and sealed.

 

[OverLade]

Pit's planking isn't unbeatable, I beat a planking pit yesterday with Snake.

And don't tell me "oh well he wasn't frame perfect" or some bull**** cuz nobody is gonna be and DMGs thread already proves it's not unbeatable even if he is.

I really hope your trolling Mr. Gannon.

 

[etecoon]

i think ganon has the best planking, if he has a stock lead and you try to confront him off stage he can just side B you to widen his lead even more!

 

[MarKO X]

i think ganon has the best planking, if he has a stock lead and you try to confront him off stage he can just side B you to widen his lead even more!

rofl
as trolltastic as that sounds, it also sounds amazing.

 

[MKOwnage]

I would really like to hear this answered by someone (Ideally multiple people) that wants to keep MK in the game. Just an answer to whether MK being added to the game improves it in any positive way or not, if it had started without him.

Well this is a dumb argument.
How does adding Snake and Diddy Kong improve the game in a positive way?

 

[Tommy_G]

Pit's planking isn't unbeatable, I beat a planking pit yesterday with Snake.

And don't tell me "oh well he wasn't frame perfect" or some bull**** cuz nobody is gonna be and DMGs thread already proves it's not unbeatable even if he is.

I really hope your trolling Mr. Gannon.

The pit wasn't frame perfect.

No, he just wasn't doing it right. MKs is only unbeatable when he does it frame perfect or insanely close to it, which is impossible to do something like that frame perfect for 8 minutes.

DMG doesn't go in Pit's ledge game.

When would anyone try to ever run off and stage spike MK or Pit? It's like they had a death wish.
Same logic as if you try to bair mk. He will just run to the other ledge, and so can Pit.

I'm not arguing with Budget Player Cadet_ anymore. He's too much of a ******. All of his rebuttals were *wave hands in the air and scream "NO, NO, NO"*

 

[CRASHiC]

No, its not impossible at all with Brawl's huge buffer range.

 

[DMG]

Actually M2K was right. Down B, even when done perfectly, MK won't be 100% invincible for the entire thing until he grabs the edge. Like you can drop down from the edge and use Down B and be invincible completely from ledge invincibility as it goes right into the move invincibility (so MK is invincible fully as he is becoming invisible and he has the moves regular Invincibility afterwards.) Apparently, MK either loses invincibility before he is visible, or when trying to sweetspot with that move you have to wait until his invincibility wears off before you can grab the edge. In either case, while the frame window is fairly small to hit MK, it does exist.

(I found or was given the wrong data for when MK can first grab the edge with Down B. GARBLE GARBLE)

As for Pit, I will do that sometime soon. I can almost guarantee you that his planking is quite beatable Tommy. But we'll wait for a bit and see.

 

[Judo777]

The pit wasn't frame perfect.

No, he just wasn't doing it right. MKs is only unbeatable when he does it frame perfect or insanely close to it, which is impossible to do something like that frame perfect for 8 minutes.

DMG doesn't go in Pit's ledge game.

When would anyone try to ever run off and stage spike MK or Pit? It's like they had a death wish.
Same logic as if you try to bair mk. He will just run to the other ledge, and so can Pit.

I'm not arguing with Budget Player Cadet_ anymore. He's too much of a ******. All of his rebuttals were *wave hands in the air and scream "NO, NO, NO"*

tommy id just like to point out that since pit loses his invincibility before his first uair is done people with very disjointed spikes can just spike him. If timed right ganon can spike pit during his uair i have seen it several times. And ike can slam right through pits uair (cause his aerials have trancendant priority). Gw can safely bair pit off stage because of his lengthy hitbox and unless u arent firing arrows he can use oil spill to cover both the ledge and one of ur get up options. If Gw screws up big deal pit cant gimp GW. Pikachu can tjolt all day and every now and then drop thunders on the ledge since pit cant stay invincible the whole time or even close and he cant be too far away from the ledge without possibly being gimped i think its quite easy to beat.