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Official Metaknight Discussion

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DMG

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DMG#931
Redhalberd, how much do you guys try to plank or abuse the stage concerning stalling against Snake? Cause I don't want to call your state "Not Gay", but seeing MK operate under the stage is marvelous. I mean spectacular, 10/10 would make love to again kind of good.

I kinda want stages like Onett and Green Hill Zone allowed to give me more unwinnable CP stages in my favor vs Snake rofl. Wario gives him the butt rump there.
 

Jack Kieser

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*sigh* I really, REALLY wish people would learn to prove themselves right, instead of waiting for others to prove them wrong.

Take more classes about logic, people.
 

fkacyan

Smash Hero
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*sigh* I really, REALLY wish people would learn to prove themselves right, instead of waiting for others to prove them wrong.

Take more classes about logic, people.
Irony much?

A conjecture is taken as true until evidence that it is not true is found.
 

OverLade

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Redhalberd, how much do you guys try to plank or abuse the stage concerning stalling against Snake? Cause I don't want to call your state "Not Gay", but seeing MK operate under the stage is marvelous. I mean spectacular, 10/10 would make love to again kind of good.

I kinda want stages like Onett and Green Hill Zone allowed to give me more unwinnable CP stages in my favor vs Snake rofl. Wario gives him the butt rump there.
LOL I'm more of an airplanking guy myself. I prefer to have stuff to punish when they whiff random Uairs instead of flying under the stage and risking grenade stage spikes lol.
 

Judo777

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Ok i think that MK on GG is like snake on RC. I am tired of hearing people say that RC is a great snake stage. It ISNT a great snake stage. Snake cant control the stage as well simply because it is moving and it makes snakes move way more than they usually do to fight since snakes are heavily a grounded based character. All this said its not a terrible stage for snake because of the small blast zones and if he can get to the top right side of the stage he can put you in a bad spot. Its still a fairly bad stage for snake but u are forgetting something. ITS FREAKING SNAKE. No matter where u put snake hes gonna still be great because snake is an awesome character. He is just a good character so putting on him on RC might give u a small advantage as opposed to most stages but..... Its still snake!

I think the same can be said about Mk and GG.
 

DMG

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DMG#931
No MK ***** on Green Greens. When you can Dair, Fair, Dtilt, Ftilt, Fsmash, Dsmash, Usmash, Glide Attack, Grounded and Aerial Shuttle Loop, Down B from below (Yes Down B from below will blow up the bomb blocks and MK remains invisible and invincible), Side B, Tornado, and Bair bomb blocks without them exploding on you, plank with 6 edges, have multiple lagless shuttle loop options on many various points on the stage, including underneath either side where regardless of what direction you pick you can cancel it with no lag onstage or to the edge or both, throw people off and threaten them with shuttle loop which means now you get free hits like Nair on them LEST THEY FEEL THE WRATH OF SHUTTLE LOOP (Or if you are mean, throw them out there, maneuver a bit, make them airdodge, reverse shuttle loop them anyways), Uthrow Spike people (Yes Uthrow Spiking. *****), Fthrow them into Bomb Blocks and have it explode on them and not you (Meaning you can even dash grab and have it work), Tornado is now safer because of the stage gaps making characters usually have to go airborne at some point to try and punish you, etc. MK is really good on this stage, and you would be hard pressed to find a character who genuinely does better here than him. Snake? Psh. He looks kinda good on this stage, if your mentality is always "Oh woe is me, I cannot ever approach him" no matter what lol. Grenade camping not that strong on this level I think vs MK. There's too many varying ground levels and too many things in the way of grenades.
 

-Ran

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MK benefits from the short kill zones lengths on Green Greens. Shuttle Loop can get shockingly low percent kills if done out of an edge guard.
 

DMG

Smash Legend
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DMG#931
The threat of Shuttle Loop alone offstage against MK on regular stages is strong enough that a lot of people will just eat the Nair or Fair after they airdodge. Combine that threat, double it, and take half the space away. Welcome to Green Greens. The weather is a bit cloudy, with a 100% chance of Gayness pouring onto the stage.
 

fkacyan

Smash Hero
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No MK ***** on Green Greens. When you can Dair, Fair, Dtilt, Ftilt, Fsmash, Dsmash, Usmash, Glide Attack, Grounded and Aerial Shuttle Loop, Down B from below (Yes Down B from below will blow up the bomb blocks and MK remains invisible and invincible), Side B, Tornado, and Bair bomb blocks without them exploding on you, plank with 6 edges, have multiple lagless shuttle loop options on many various points on the stage, including underneath either side where regardless of what direction you pick you can cancel it with no lag onstage or to the edge or both, throw people off and threaten them with shuttle loop which means now you get free hits like Nair on them LEST THEY FEEL THE WRATH OF SHUTTLE LOOP (Or if you are mean, throw them out there, maneuver a bit, make them airdodge, reverse shuttle loop them anyways), Uthrow Spike people (Yes Uthrow Spiking. *****), Fthrow them into Bomb Blocks and have it explode on them and not you (Meaning you can even dash grab and have it work), Tornado is now safer because of the stage gaps making characters usually have to go airborne at some point to try and punish you, etc. MK is really good on this stage, and you would be hard pressed to find a character who genuinely does better here than him. Snake? Psh. He looks kinda good on this stage, if your mentality is always "Oh woe is me, I cannot ever approach him" no matter what lol. Grenade camping not that strong on this level I think vs MK. There's too many varying ground levels and too many things in the way of grenades.
I love you.

Most amazing wall of text I have ever read. Shame there's a character limit in sigs.
 

1048576

Smash Master
Joined
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3,417
Irony much?

A conjecture is taken as true until evidence that it is not true is found.
Wait, what?

Invisible intangible unicorns patrol the universe enforcing gravity.

Invisible intangible dinosaurs patrol the universe enforcing gravity.

These two statements are both absurd and mutually exclusive, yet you would consider them both true under your logic, since both statements are unfalsifiable.
 

fkacyan

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Wait, what?

Invisible intangible unicorns patrol the universe enforcing gravity.

Invisible intangible dinosaurs patrol the universe enforcing gravity.

These two statements are both absurd and mutually exclusive, yet you would consider them both true under your logic, since both statements are unfalsifiable.
Wow, that is an excellent strawman thar, broseph.

Obviously I meant a theory backed up with logic and experience, and not random conjecture pulled out of one's rear end. I guess that needed clarification for the dolts, though.

EDIT: Figured I should also add that there's a fact in my theory as well that the conjecture is based on; namely, the percent at which dsmash kill without DI.
 

Judo777

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Wow, that is an excellent strawman thar, broseph.

Obviously I meant a theory backed up with logic and experience, and not random conjecture pulled out of one's rear end. I guess that needed clarification for the dolts, though.

EDIT: Figured I should also add that there's a fact in my theory as well that the conjecture is based on; namely, the percent at which dsmash kill without DI.
Piss Thio said strawman again now im gonna have to go find a small child to punch in the face.
 

MarKO X

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You could just link to it. :V

So are we going to say that MK's results from MLG Orlando don't count because a lot of MK-killers aren't showing up and the stage list is so broken for MK?
Why do you need MK killers to kill MK? He's not broken, remember?
Is the stage list broken for MK, or is MK broken for the stage list?
Will the rest of MLG not have the same stage list?
Does 76 plus 76 not equal 142?
lol?
 

1048576

Smash Master
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Wow, that is an excellent strawman thar, broseph.

Obviously I meant a theory backed up with logic and experience, and not random conjecture pulled out of one's rear end. I guess that needed clarification for the dolts, though.

EDIT: Figured I should also add that there's a fact in my theory as well that the conjecture is based on; namely, the percent at which dsmash kill without DI.

lol at strawman. I f'ing quoted you.


You should mean what you say and say what you mean. Don't blame your lack of communication skills on me. That's no better than sum1hoypesliekthisyunoget1337uizstzpidlulzjkjkumadorly
 

dainbramage

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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Wow, that is an excellent strawman thar, broseph.

Obviously I meant a theory backed up with logic and experience, and not random conjecture pulled out of one's rear end. I guess that needed clarification for the dolts, though.

EDIT: Figured I should also add that there's a fact in my theory as well that the conjecture is based on; namely, the percent at which dsmash kill without DI.
His example was not a strawman. Honestly, the vast majority of accusations of someone using a strawman (on smashboards, at least) are incorrect.

His example was, in fact, this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

Good day sir.
 

Judo777

Smash Master
Joined
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Messages
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His example was not a strawman. Honestly, the vast majority of accusations of someone using a strawman (on smashboards, at least) are incorrect.

His example was, in fact, this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

Good day sir.
This is because strawman is the new "IDK what to say so lets just accuse them of strawmanning..."As opposed to the old one which was "IDK what to say so ill just use the old words have no meaning argument."
 

fkacyan

Smash Hero
Joined
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Messages
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His example was not a strawman. Honestly, the vast majority of accusations of someone using a strawman (on smashboards, at least) are incorrect.

His example was, in fact, this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

Good day sir.
Reduction to absurdity is often something that follows strawmanning, which isn't any different in this case.

He took what I said out of the context of the original discussion, where my conjecture had facts and logic behind it (Thus usage of that word), and once it was out of context, reduced it to absurdity. That is the very definition of strawmanning.

This is all off-topic bull****, though. If you have evidence to prove that:

1) GGs is not a great MK stage
2) That the moves I spoke about cannot kill at extremely low percents

You're more than welcome to introduce said evidence, instead of attacking the semantics of my argument and avoiding a point you probably have no rebuttal to.
 

Judo777

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Reduction to absurdity is often something that follows strawmanning, which isn't any different in this case.

He took what I said out of the context of the original discussion, where my conjecture had facts and logic behind it (Thus usage of that word), and once it was out of context, reduced it to absurdity. That is the very definition of strawmanning.

This is all off-topic bull****, though. If you have evidence to prove that:

1) GGs is not a great MK stage
2) That the moves I spoke about cannot kill at extremely low percents

You're more than welcome to introduce said evidence, instead of attacking the semantics of my argument and avoiding a point you probably have no rebuttal to.
Ok well i went back and read and if i am not mistaken. Thio said that dsmash kills at 36% on the sides with no DI. <3 then said that MK doesnt have great kill moves on GG because if u DI right you shouldnt be dying until about 70% or so. Thio then said that he didn't mention DI in the previous statement because you have to take into account accidental bad DI. And that if u think hes wrong just find a way to prove him wrong or something along those lines.
Jack Kieser then said he was tired of people not proving themselves right but instead expecting others to prove them wrong. Thio then said that conjectures are right until proven wrong through evidence. 1048 then said that that statement was absurd and compared it to invisible unicorns.....

Doesn't sound like anything was taken out of context. I see no ............*cant believe im saying this*....strawman.........

Also good players are assumed to almost always DI properly so u can't base it off of them screwing up omg people stop saying strawman.
 

fkacyan

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Ok well i went back and read and if i am not mistaken. Thio said that dsmash kills at 36% on the sides with no DI. <3 then said that MK doesnt have great kill moves on GG because if u DI right you shouldnt be dying until about 70% or so. Thio then said that he didn't mention DI in the previous statement because you have to take into account accidental bad DI. And that if u think hes wrong just find a way to prove him wrong or something along those lines.
Jack Kieser then said he was tired of people not proving themselves right but instead expecting others to prove them wrong. Thio then said that conjectures are right until proven wrong through evidence. 1048 then said that that statement was absurd and compared it to invisible unicorns.....

Doesn't sound like anything was taken out of context. I see no ............*cant believe im saying this*....strawman.........

Also good players are assumed to almost always DI properly so u can't base it off of them screwing up omg people stop saying strawman.
The meaning of 'conjecture' in each case is different. Out of context, he took conjecture to mean "random idea pulled out of my ***" which is not how I was using it. Thus he is arguing against a definition I was not using, and thus it is a strawman.

On topic: The without DI percentage is a base which we can then form rough estimates around for what good DI can do for you (It usually doesn't change survival percentage more than 10-20%). Combined with the fact that living with good DI still puts you off the stage against MK in the blast zone, living on the initial hit will probably not do too much for you.
 

adumbrodeus

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The thing is, it IS faster then reaction time, and it is possible to be inputting a move.


Ehhh, could somebody give the context, it's not understandable if the move is the only faster then reaction time kill move, but if it isn't then no DI is understandable if circumstantial, in that case it's DI tricking really.
 

fkacyan

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The thing is, it IS faster then reaction time, and it is possible to be inputting a move.


Ehhh, could somebody give the context, it's not understandable if the move is the only faster then reaction time kill move, but if it isn't then no DI is understandable if circumstantial, in that case it's DI tricking really.
I gave a percentage without DI because I was testing by myself at the time, lol. I'd imagine fresh downsmash killed with perfect DIs at about 50% on the far side of GGs, but I can't really test that solo.
 

Raziek

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Some new stuff from since those times:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=9422054#post9422054
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=9450685#post9450685
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=9585089#post9585089
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9585809&postcount=5530
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=9626469#post9626469
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=9709061#post9709061
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=267257
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9706252&postcount=7549

And for entertainment value, here's a presentation I made for some of the statistics stuff that happened with Omni:
http://www.msu.edu/~worhatch/brawlpics/BrawlStatistics.ppt

Overall course of the thread:
Significant anti-ban arguments are destroyed one by one each time someone comes out with data related to that argument (Flayl's case is particularly enlightening, since Flayl's research disproved his own anti-ban hypothesis). The end result is that support of a temporary (~6 month) MK ban was becoming overwhelming at about the time MLG entered the picture. MLG, however, has made the situation more complicated.

I've not kept up with this thread as thoroughly since I was admitted to the BBR, though, so I'm unsure if there has been any especially significant developments out here since then.
This powerpoint needs to be watched. Too good.
 

Tommy_G

Smash Champion
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This powerpoint needs to be watched. Too good.
Soooo much disrespect for anti-ban.

Character dominance is not a good criteria for banning something.
That sentence destroys all of statistical arguments.
Captain Falcon wouldn't be bannable if everyone used him at his current skill level.
MK is just a really good character. His aerial movement(horizontal and vertical) is laughable, he's very light, and gets ***** by chaingrabs by everyone with a cg except d3. He's not bannable.

*Waits for pro-ban to start yelling at me and calling me an idiot for stating part of my side of the argument.*

Maybe if MK got 1st, 2nd, and 3rd at a major tournament, then I'd consider going pro-ban. Hell, Jiggs almost did it in Melee(Pound 4)

-Unsubscribe-
This thread is pointless.
 

Miamisportsfan45

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Soooo much disrespect for anti-ban.

Character dominance is not a good criteria for banning something.
That sentence destroys all of statistical arguments.
Captain Falcon wouldn't be bannable if everyone used him at his current skill level.
MK is just a really good character. His aerial movement(horizontal and vertical) is laughable, he's very light, and gets ***** by chaingrabs by everyone with a cg except d3. He's not bannable.

*Waits for pro-ban to start yelling at me and calling me an idiot for stating part of my side of the argument.*

Maybe if MK got 1st, 2nd, and 3rd at a major tournament, then I'd consider going pro-ban. Hell, Jiggs almost did it in Melee(Pound 4)

-Unsubscribe-
This thread is pointless.
I agree. There's moments where I get ***** by MK and out of frustration think he oughta be banned, but out of all honesty, I don't actually think any character in the game should be banned. No character is that broken.

I agree with your tournament placement theories, though. But that would all rely on the number of Metaknight's being used in the tournament as well.

It all depends on how you look at it.
 

ThatAintTripping

Smash Rookie
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Messages
19
Maybe if MK got 1st, 2nd, and 3rd at a major tournament, then I'd consider going pro-ban. Hell, Jiggs almost did it in Melee(Pound 4)
So if Ally gets very sick (I don't wish it on him, or anyone!) before MLG Orlando, and Metaknight takes 1, 2, 3, because of the removal of one player then we can ban MK?
 

Judo777

Smash Master
Joined
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Messages
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Soooo much disrespect for anti-ban.

Character dominance is not a good criteria for banning something.
That sentence destroys all of statistical arguments.
Captain Falcon wouldn't be bannable if everyone used him at his current skill level.
MK is just a really good character. His aerial movement(horizontal and vertical) is laughable, he's very light, and gets ***** by chaingrabs by everyone with a cg except d3. He's not bannable.

*Waits for pro-ban to start yelling at me and calling me an idiot for stating part of my side of the argument.*

Maybe if MK got 1st, 2nd, and 3rd at a major tournament, then I'd consider going pro-ban. Hell, Jiggs almost did it in Melee(Pound 4)

-Unsubscribe-
This thread is pointless.
Wait Mk gets ***** by cgs? Lemme see. D3s doesnt work as u said. Pikas dthrow cg which wrecks about 6 characters doesnt work, Falco cg works just as well as i does on everyone else the only different is falco would be stupid to attempt to follow the spike up off stage. Pits cg works the same as everyone else with way less room for error. Bowsers is about the same as everyone else except he can follow it upon air release if hes frame perfect but still no big deal since bowsers know how to pummel to pretty much remove that. Sheiks is meidocre seeing as her pummel is terribad and does like 5%. Dk's dthrow cg that only works on zss doesnt work. Warios cg doesnt work.

Oh wait yoshi! Yoshis is actually semi worth doing cause hes gets an usmash. IC's get a dthorw cg to like 40 which doesnt matter cause if u get grabbed by IC's u should be dead. Thats about it.

Did i miss anyone. MK really isnt affectd by cgs as much as most character IMO.
 

Miamisportsfan45

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 27, 2006
Messages
1,590
Location
Pennsylvania
Soooo much disrespect for anti-ban.

Character dominance is not a good criteria for banning something.
That sentence destroys all of statistical arguments.
Captain Falcon wouldn't be bannable if everyone used him at his current skill level.
MK is just a really good character. His aerial movement(horizontal and vertical) is laughable, he's very light, and gets ***** by chaingrabs by everyone with a cg except d3. He's not bannable.

*Waits for pro-ban to start yelling at me and calling me an idiot for stating part of my side of the argument.*

Maybe if MK got 1st, 2nd, and 3rd at a major tournament, then I'd consider going pro-ban. Hell, Jiggs almost did it in Melee(Pound 4)

-Unsubscribe-
This thread is pointless.
I just noticed you live in Miami, FL. Interesting. I'm obviously a huge sports fan of Miami, but aside from that, I'll be moving to FL for College sometime in the near future. Maybe we'll end up meeting at a local smash tourny or something.
 

etecoon

Smash Hero
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
5,731
We're forgetting a certain monkey with attention disorders here.
lost to atomsk, shadow, and anti recently. he's amazing and will **** MOST MK's, but he's not quite alleh in that regard, and even before that snake was still the only character with more than one "MK slayer"
 
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