Official Metaknight Discussion

[Jakandsig]

Look, I know you guys are all like, "He's nuts" and "He's doing this on purpose" but All the other places I went to think differently then you guys. So you could say I just had bad info. I've been trying to say this for awhile but ya'll kept calling me crazy and a troll. Hope this explains things.

 

[MajorMoses]

lol. What other places could possibly make that assumption that Marth > Metaknight and Snake?

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Look, I know you guys are all like, "He's nuts" and "He's doing this on purpose" but All the other places I went to think differently then you guys. So you could say I just had bad info. I've been trying to say this for awhile but ya'll kept calling me crazy and a troll. Hope this explains things.

What other places? GameFAQS? If so, then I can understand. But SWF is the best of the best.

 

[Chuee]

Jakan, I don't give a **** if you're being serious. All of your posts are incredibly ignorant and you're flaming people just to be a ****.

 

[Jakandsig]

No, not gamefaqs. Problem is if I take this info and post it on their forums they'll think I'm nuts like you guys thought. Chuee is a perfect example of assuming I was ignorant on purpose.

 

[Kewkky]

No, not gamefaqs. Problem is if I take this info and post it on their forums they'll think I'm nuts like you guys thought.

And what forums are those? I wouldn't doubt that some people here on SWF wouldn't mind going to one of their tourneys and "proving them wrong".

 

[Jakandsig]

What other places? GameFAQS? If so, then I can understand. But SWF is the best of the best.

As long a you know this was a mis-understanding.

 

[MajorMoses]

..... This thread needs popcorn. Its like a soap opera. WITH TORNADOS!

 

[Omni]

If meta was banned how you think the tourny seen would look like as in characters steppinmg it up more and placing higher in tournies?

If Meta were banned a new game would be created with a few more characters placing higher in tournaments. However, I believe the same concept applies to DDD and Ice Climbers. I also think it takes away from the main focus that Metaknight should not be banned so more characters can be viable. The question is should Metaknight be banned from an individual concept.

A good example is Sheik from Melee. If she were banned from Melee a lot of characters that get d-throw chaingrabbed from 0% to w/e would become more viable. However, Sheik retains counters (Fox/Falco) and even match-ups within the high tiers. The reason why Sheik is high tier is because she makes 1/2 of the cast nearly obselete which is expected from a character that is argued to be the best in the game.

Simply put, the argument "It opens up more room for characters to be viable" can be applied with most high tier characters (especially the best). Remove someone from the top and a few people at the bottom have one less match-up to worry about. This would be my plan of action if I wanted to cater to mid-low tiers. Metaknight has enough tough/even matchups as it is.

How much stagnation do you think there needs to be as a direct result of MK for you to support a ban? And what sort of evidence would convince you of just that- that MK alone is halting forward progress?

It's likely I won't have a very detailed response to your answer, by the way, as I'm really just curious what you have to say about this subject. (I'm not asking to debate you. xD)

I think the stagnation should be clear and obvious.

I don't think stagnation is clear nor obvious when other characters are constantly taking 1st place over MK in their regions and in Nationals. I find it funny that Overswarm timed his political campaign the way he did; not very effective.

Besides placements characters have been growing in their attempt to fight MK by finding chain grabs, grab releases, traps, and all sorts of tricks. These same strategies that were discovered in an attempt to defeat MK also can be applied to the rest of the cast. Techniques and AT's are still being discovered.

There is simply too much room for growth and potential. ADHD has opened up a large amount of possibilities for Diddy, but he doesn't have a strong enough army to rally the support as fast as Metaknight. Still that opportunity and potential is there. The same goes for Wario, Falco, Ice Climbers, etc. It's much harder to reach that high level of play compared to MK, but it would be ignorant to say it was impossible, and ignorant to say those said players are "special" because they're not.

Evidence that would show that the metagame has become stale is when the frequent non-MK 1st placers stop placing 1st all together. Metaknight is popular and drowns the top placings, but he simply does not take 1st on the consistent basis people claim.

I mean, when I see a ZSS beating Seibrik 3-0 and getting 1st, I see the metagame growing. At this point, I see no signs of the metagame becoming stagnant in the near or distant future.

That is of no importance!

@Omni - How do you feel about ledge grab limits and anti-scrooging rules? I'm not entirely certain of your stance, so I'm quite curious!

To be honest, I don't care about it too much. I think it's overdramatized.

How much scrooging was seen during the last few sets in Pound 4? Borderline none. Scrooging, imo, is hilarious. I find it funny that someone can do something like glide under the stage a few times and suddenly it becomes a national pandemic. It really isn't. It barely happens. We can argue "But it can happen!" but when you don't see it happening at a National Tournament, I mean... wtf gtfo.

I'm neutral on LGL.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

You need to watch better people.

@ varel. Are you serious or sarcastic? Well one thing I know is he's not as goid as he throws himself out. I keep hearing about some Mew2king whos way better than him assumingly.

@ kewwky: Only a idiot thinks $1,500 is a lot of money. So yeah, let me no when a good poster posts.(Not you)

I would hope everyone recognizes an obvious troll by now...

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

No, not gamefaqs. Problem is if I take this info and post it on their forums they'll think I'm nuts like you guys thought. Chuee is a perfect example of assuming I was ignorant on purpose.

Don't come onto the best Smash forum in the world and start spewing untrue things, then. Do a little research first

 

[Chuee]

I thought you just posted something saying that you weren't a troll and that you were serious and then you say you weren't being ignorant on purpose........................

 

[MajorMoses]

Save your breath (finger muscles), he's offline now. Hopefully for good.

 

[Chuee]

Now we can have a decent discussion without that guy interrupting.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

I dunno, we weren't really discussing anything before he came in here.

Well I'm gonna go. Be back tomorrow. I had fun debating today, this thread is funny.

 

[DanGR]

I think the stagnation should be clear and obvious.

I don't think stagnation is clear nor obvious when other characters are constantly taking 1st place over MK in their regions and in Nationals. I find it funny that Overswarm timed his political campaign the way he did; not very effective.

Besides placements characters have been growing in their attempt to fight MK by finding chain grabs, grab releases, traps, and all sorts of tricks. These same strategies that were discovered in an attempt to defeat MK also can be applied to the rest of the cast. Techniques and AT's are still being discovered.

There is simply too much room for growth and potential. ADHD has opened up a large amount of possibilities for Diddy, but he doesn't have a strong enough army to rally the support as fast as Metaknight. Still that opportunity and potential is there. The same goes for Wario, Falco, Ice Climbers, etc. It's much harder to reach that high level of play compared to MK, but it would be ignorant to say it was impossible, and ignorant to say those said players are "special" because they're not.

Evidence that would show that the metagame has become stale is when the frequent non-MK 1st placers stop placing 1st all together. Metaknight is popular and drowns the top placings, but he simply does not take 1st on the consistent basis people claim.

I mean, when I see a ZSS beating Seibrik 3-0 and getting 1st, I see the metagame growing. At this point, I see no signs of the metagame becoming stagnant in the near or distant future.

"There is simply too much room for growth and potential. ADHD has opened up a large amount of possibilities for Diddy, but he doesn't have a strong enough army to rally the support as fast as Metaknight. Still that opportunity and potential is there."

Despite my opinion that "opportunity and potential" for growth is always going to be there despite what the metagame looks like, I can agree that banning a character before all of our options have been exhausted is a terrible idea.

Thank you for the detailed response.

 

[RDK]

And one more thing. with all the stuff meta can do, him being the best in the game, and him having the ability to plank, etc. I don't see how the info and data on why she should stay is beating why he should go.

Because pro-ban has yet to come up with a solid reason - a statement that ties in all of their reasoning together - about why exactly we should ban MK.

There is data on MK. That data needs to be interpreted and formed into a ban criteria. Pro-ban has failed to do that.

Edit: everyone responding to the troll needs to kill themselves. Post count whores.

 

[BOB SAGET!]

We have no ban criteria so how r we gonna ban a character? Plus we must not be too ban happy either. It looks bad compared to other fighters aswell.

 

[RDK]

We have no ban criteria so how r we gonna ban a character? Plus we must not be too ban happy either. It looks bad compared to other fighters aswell.

We do have ban criteria you ninny.

 

[BOB SAGET!]

Is it set in stone? Can I see it?

EDIT: wait, wtf? Did he just call me a ninny? lol

 

[RDK]

Is it set in stone? Can I see it?

EDIT: wait, wtf? Did he just call me a ninny? lol

Go back and read the thread; I'm not going to go dig it up again. It's been discussed several times just in the past few days.

 

[Kuraudo]

Go back and read the thread; I'm not going to go dig it up again. It's been discussed several times just in the past few days.

Discussed several times? The real question is,

Has the criteria been FINALIZED.

A finalized criteria for banning a character in the Smash series must come from the SBR, not theory crafting/personal perspectives (be they shared with other fighters or not) on why a character should be banned or not, no offense, coming from us, the common folk of the community.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

He'll stay, for now. Wait 'til summer. *yawn*

We've already given the reasons for banning MK and there's no need for a wrap up. You haven't eliminated every reason brought up.

Edit: Good point, Kuraudo. Anyone not part of the BR falls into the same average Smash community. There's no finalization of any info, at least not in here 'cause OS said it a million times.

 

[Kuraudo]

Realistically, by Summer if the trend continues and MK's dominance reigns supreme without the exception of the "heroes" of characters, such as ADHD or Ally (who knows, someone could rise up), that would be more points leading towards Pro-Ban in MK's reigning supreme, ESPECIALLY if the underhanded tactics are gotten away with.

I'm good with that. It won't be too late by then, probably.

 

[bumble]

i would like to se metaknight banned.

 

[Jack Kieser]

i would like to se metaknight banned.

Dec. 2009? 3 posts? No evidence for or against?

...people need to stop doing this.

 

[RDK]

He'll stay, for now. Wait 'til summer. *yawn*

We've already given the reasons for banning MK and there's no need for a wrap up. You haven't eliminated every reason brought up.

Edit: Good point, Kuraudo. Anyone not part of the BR falls into the same average Smash community. There's no finalization of any info, at least not in here 'cause OS said it a million times.

The criteria I've posted is SBR criteria. No amount of hand-waving will make that fact go away.

The point is that until pro-ban comes up with a better and more effective criteria, MK will remain unbanned and people are going to have to deal with it.

 

[Kuraudo]

Dec. 2009? 3 posts? No evidence for or against?

...people need to stop doing this.

They may not have contributed, but they didn't do anything wrong by saying something like that.

And using their post count and join date against them? Really? XD

[EDIT]

... RDK, that is the cutest thing ever.

Ban him. LMAO

 

[Judo777]

I think MK should be banned. The fact that half of the time u have to hope ur opponent is gonna be honorable and not time u out is kinda ridiculous. I guess i can keep a percent lead but oh wait MK also is like the best offensive character in the game. This also becomes more apparent when I believe Ally was timed out by M2K at pound 4 and also that the only game M2K won in grand finals against ADHD was time out on Delfino. Not saying M2K isn't capable of beating ADHD, just saying ADHD definitely outplayed him that day and M2K was still able to time him out once.

 

[Jack Kieser]

They may not have contributed, but they didn't do anything wrong by saying something like that.

And using their post count and join date against them? Really? XD

[EDIT]

... RDK, that is the cutest thing ever.

Ban him. LMAO

As much as I hate to say it, posts like those only add to the size of the thread and make the situation worse. For something like this, where discussion is so important, I have to say that those without something to say just shouldn't post. We already know that some people hate MK and some people love him. And, yeah; Join Date / Post Count independently don't prove anything; when those are used in conjunction with posts that say nothing, though, it shows the mark of someone joining just to say he hates (or loves!) MK, which, like I said, only makes mods want to close the thread faster.

If he really wants MK banned, he just should wait to post until he has something to add to the debate; otherwise, post in Brawl General.

 

[RDK]

... RDK, that is the cutest thing ever.

Ban him. LMAO

I thought it was relevant to the discussion at hand. Plus it's so **** cute.

 

[Kuraudo]

I understand where you're coming from here. Sadly, the internet is an uncontrollable beast, no matter how hard you try. XD

I'll think of stuff to say later.

 

[AllyKnight]

Snake has no bad matchups. They are all even or in his favor.

Wrong stupid monkey! MK wins Snake matchup with the recent metagame but not by much it's like 55-45 MK favor.

Olimar is even with snake, or possibly gets beaten slightly. DDD is 50-50, I've witnessed this matchup so much to conclude that DDD has no problem racking up damage but he suffers badly when he has to kill snake and snake makes massive comebacks and somehow gets the stock off before DDD. I've watched Ally play tons of DDDs.

I feel like the top tiers previous "counters" became dead even as time went by. Diddy's only bad matchup is snake which is 60-40, he used to have about 8.

I doubt Snake is bad match up for Diddy, I mean you wrecked every other Snake so far, and you wrecked every MK including M2K. You've beaten me too. Snake vs Diddy is even if you're playing smart. And Snake has lots of EVEN or slighty in disavantage (D3, Marth, MK, Rob, Diddy)

I think MK should be banned. The fact that half of the time u have to hope ur opponent is gonna be honorable and not time u out is kinda ridiculous. I guess i can keep a percent lead but oh wait MK also is like the best offensive character in the game. This also becomes more apparent when I believe Ally was timed out by M2K at pound 4 and also that the only game M2K won in grand finals against ADHD was time out on Delfino. Not saying M2K isn't capable of beating ADHD, just saying ADHD definitely outplayed him that day and M2K was still able to time him out once.

ADHD is just TOO good vs MK current metagame.

 

[C.J.]

Ally, where'd your avatar go?

 

[Sorto]

Is the only reason everyone wants mk banned is because of his ability to time out opponents? Because timing out an opponent purposely is totally similar to stalling. You can ban the techniques he uses to stall out opponents. They disrupt the true meaning of a fighting game anyways, and he isnt the only character who can do them. The timer in a fighting match is to keep the flow of a game and not allowing a tournament to run too late, its not supposed to be used to time out an opponent consistently. The techniques that make timing out easy for mk, like scrooging, planking, and air camping should be banned. Banning the character based on his ability to stall is somewhat bogus. If he had a one kit ko move or something that offensively was overpowered then perhaps banning would be more logical. But timing out is against the true nature of a competitive fighting game. Its not called a competitive stalling game. STALLING IS BANNED!

 

[Sorto]

I think the Peach Bomber stall is an archaic ruling, seeing as how it's only possible to actually stall with the technique in certain locations (like Fourside, which is banned), and pretty much everywhere else you're forced to rise due to the limitations of the move itself anyway.

IDK when I read it on smashwiki, it seemed possible to use as a stalling technique on stages where you bomb off only one wall as well. Regardless, it was banned as a stalling technique, even though you arent invincible and you are reachable.

 

[Lifeisweird]

The criteria I've posted is SBR criteria. No amount of hand-waving will make that fact go away.

The point is that until pro-ban comes up with a better and more effective criteria, MK will remain unbanned and people are going to have to deal with it.

It doesn't fit all of the stages that the SBR has banned in their official rule list. You said yourself that you didn't agree with some of the stages that the SBR has banned. Since the criteria doesn't follow all of the SBR's bans, it can't be the SBR ban criteria.

 

[etecoon]

Marth gets outranged, and since he's fairly light, Snake can kill him early with Utilt. Snake's zoning is a problem for Marth, as is his range.

Again, please defend your arguments, don't just say ****.

mmmm, you don't play either character AT ALL do you?

 

[Jem.]

Metaknight vs Diddy is 55-45 Metaknights favor imo. I wrote up a couple posts in various MK character specific threads telling why and what to do vs Diddy.

 

[Master Raven]

mmmm, you don't play either character AT ALL do you?

He doesn't even play Brawl.