• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Official Metaknight Discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.

Vyse

Faith, Hope, Love, Luck
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 6, 2005
Messages
9,561
Location
Brisbane, Australia
Try to play nice guys, I'll be watching too.

Personally, I don't have a problem with MK being in the tournament scene. I would rather see items in tournament play before a ban on a character that can do all the gay things in this game that one bit better than most other characters.
 

BOB SAGET!

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 26, 2009
Messages
1,125
Location
CANADA
It looks like RDK is the ninny after all. lol. We'll see what happens. I personally dont care. I dont think he's ban worthy but i wouldn't be upset if he did get banned. It'll give my olimar an easier time. lol
 

RDK

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 3, 2006
Messages
6,390
It doesn't fit all of the stages that the SBR has banned in their official rule list. You said yourself that you didn't agree with some of the stages that the SBR has banned. Since the criteria doesn't follow all of the SBR's bans, it can't be the SBR ban criteria.:dizzy:
I'd like it if pro-ban actually came out with a list of said stages instead of just asserting that they're there.

I remember salaboB bringing up several stages he thought didn't fit the criteria, but in reality they actually do.
 

etecoon

Smash Hero
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
5,731
55:45 is not even.

and why are people that don't play brawl arguing matchups in brawl -_-
 

Crow!

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 30, 2008
Messages
1,415
Location
Columbus, OH
Dec. 2009? 3 posts? No evidence for or against?

...people need to stop doing this.
Unfortunately, with no poll up, this is the only place where people who don't want to spend time writing an essay about the subject can add their name to the tally for or against.


Also, the miscommunication above here is due to low tiers' vs high tiers' matchup terminologies. When Link mains say "the Link vs Marth matchup is pretty even", we understand it to mean "it's 60-40 Marth." When Link mains say "Link vs Snake is even," we mean it's 55:45 Snake. If we say "Link vs Captain Falcon is pretty good for us", we mean it's 50:50.

The understanding is that, if you play as a bottom tier, the average matchup you deal with is about 60-40, so that when you ask the question "how good is that Link?", you actually are asking how good of players that Link can beat when he's at his usual 60-40 disadvantage, not how well he plays in the rare 50-50. Unfortunately, this also means that we tend to apply this same sort of logic when we look at top tier matchups.

Low tiers aren't the only people who fall into this trap. For MK, for example, the REVERSE logic applies; when a character is like 55:45 in MK's favor, some MK mains fall into the trap of calling that "possibly in the opponent's favor" because they're used to having 65-35 matchups.
 

Master Raven

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
Messages
3,491
Location
SFL
55-45 is close to even but a slight disadvantage, and I'd have to agree that MK slightly beats Snake in the current metagame (keyword: CURRENT).

As far as MK himself is concerned, I think the jury is still out on his legality, but I'd be more concerned with his actual matchups moreso than the number of people flocking to MK. If we were to ban a character from competitive gaming, why would it be for any reason other than that he/she has no counters or even matchups? To me the idea of banning a character just because of a huge portion of players using him as opposed to everyone else or that his/her tactics make the game not fun sounds really, really silly.

So as of now, I'm technically anti-ban, but if it turns out that no character can go at least even with MK, then I'll go pro-ban.
 

UltiMario

Out of Obscurity
Joined
Sep 23, 2007
Messages
10,438
Location
Maryland
NNID
UltiMario
3DS FC
1719-3180-2455
I'm not too aware on other games and their scenes, but don't other scenes ban characters that were obviously made to be broken, like, kill everyone-in-two-hits-and-take-like-no-damage broken, where if you fought said character it was literally auto-lose because he would be so absurdedly powerful?
 

BIGM1994

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 23, 2009
Messages
2,888
Location
Fairlawn, New Jersey
in my opinion mk isnt best but definetly isnt broken and has 50/50 matchups. you guys should see this aib blog full of idiots lol, if i wasnt banned i would flame them. some guy said snake is 5th in the game LMAOOOO

oh and 55/45 is pretty much even and a very winnable matchup
 

tocador

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 10, 2008
Messages
1,703
Location
Hot chick Zone, Brazil
Instead of banning MK we shouuld be discussing about having 9 starters, or allowing items =/.

MK ban should be left to sbr discussion as basically all the points have allready being stated and from like, pages 50+ everything was paralel discussion(omfg melee jigsz) or just trolling =/.
 

tocador

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 10, 2008
Messages
1,703
Location
Hot chick Zone, Brazil
in my opinion mk isnt best but definetly isnt broken and has 50/50 matchups. you guys should see this aib blog full of idiots lol, if i wasnt banned i would flame them. some guy said snake is 5th in the game LMAOOOO

oh and 55/45 is pretty much even and a very winnable matchup
You cant really be mad at someone just because they have a opinion, and really, it isnt unreasonable to have a TLwith snake in 5, have a example:

1. MK
2. Diddy
3. Wario
4. IC/Snake
5. IC/Snake

Its just that people overrate snake because of ally ><, and people overrate diddy because of ADHD, but i kinda beleive diddy IS second best.
 

BIGM1994

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 23, 2009
Messages
2,888
Location
Fairlawn, New Jersey
You cant really be mad at someone just because they have a opinion, and really, it isnt unreasonable to have a TLwith snake in 5, have a example:

1. MK
2. Diddy
3. Wario
4. IC/Snake
5. IC/Snake

Its just that people overrate snake because of ally ><, and people overrate diddy because of ADHD, but i kinda beleive diddy IS second best.
unlike most of these characters snake beats ics pretty bad. imo snake beats diddy and the other characters on here dont, and same goes for mk. snake IS top 3, and you cant really overrate snake because of ally because anyone can do what ally is doing if they were as good

also all the characters you mentioned there are 50/50 with mk besides mayyyybe wario. and were all sure snake beats ics pretty bad
 

etecoon

Smash Hero
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
5,731
snake doesn't beat IC's THAT badly, he wins but it's not a **** MU at all

falco should be in this discussion, and I don't have a strong opinion on 2-5. any combination of snake/diddy/falco/IC's/wario, I don't agree with it but snake as #5 is perfectly reasonable.
 

Palpi

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 26, 2008
Messages
5,714
Location
Yardley, Pennsylvania
I think Snake and Diddy are just gimmick match ups for MK. It is easy to understand how MK works from the perspective of a snake or diddy main, but the match ups are harder to understand for the metaknight player because they aren't as straight forward. I think this gives people a false understanding of match ups.

MK worst mu is himself because all counterpicks are worthless against another mk =]

Snake is around even or worse with olimar, d3, mk, possibly marth.

I don't know where people are getting these IC ideas from..are we still on apex hype or has an IC done something in the past 4-5 months?

Marth should be over IC on tier list imo.
 

tocador

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 10, 2008
Messages
1,703
Location
Hot chick Zone, Brazil
I think Snake and Diddy are just gimmick match ups for MK. It is easy to understand how MK works from the perspective of a snake or diddy main, but the match ups are harder to understand for the metaknight player because they aren't as straight forward. I think this gives people a false understanding of match ups.

MK worst mu is himself because all counterpicks are worthless against another mk =]

Snake is around even or worse with olimar, d3, mk, possibly marth.

I don't know where people are getting these IC ideas from..are we still on apex hype or has an IC done something in the past 4-5 months?

Marth should be over IC on tier list imo.
Marth is pretty good..... for a A tier. IC are good, really good, they are so good that basically every character that faces them has to change its playstile completly, because if they just ram into IC they will get *****.

In fact IC's are soo good that they force you to either, camp, time out or play 99% more carefully than you would, thats how good ic's are.

The fact is, IMO, even with lain they lack a bit of "national championship winning" representation.

Like OS said, ic are 2gud.
 

Dekar173

Justice Man
Joined
Jun 25, 2008
Messages
3,126
Location
Albuquerque, NM
Again, the best solution is a temporary ban.

Time frame:

1-2 months "new main" period- this makes it fair for the MK mainers who have to pick up a new character.
Ban
Over those months, we collect data- this includes just asking the general audience (tourney attendees) if they're happy with MK gone.
5 months in- hold another official vote on the Tactical Boards over whether we should keep MK banned, or allow him once more.
6 months later- MK is reallowed, or stays banned. Repeat after another 3-6 months and see where we've gotten.



This allows BOTH camps to have their way- MK anti-ban has had their way (despite being the minority) for the past 2 years, AND it's not permanent, so if they're truly unhappy with how the metagame progresses without MK, then they can fix it later on down the road. Now we give pro-ban (the majority) their way for 6 months, constantly prodding info out of the tourney scene to see if we've done the right thing or not.

Also, of course if we DO ban MK, we need to do it in a fair fashion- give MK mains at least a 1/2 month "grace period" in order to pick up other character(s) before officially starting the ban.
 

etecoon

Smash Hero
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
5,731
temp ban wouldn't work because so many TO's would just ignore it

...

then again TO's here would ignore it if the BBR recommended that MK be banned outright, people don't understand that this isn't melee and there is no MLG, the BBR doesn't have real authority. TO's create and discard rules on their own all the time, likewise if you want MK banned in your area you don't need to wait for them, do what xyro did and take it upon yourself.
 

Kewkky

Waiting for a new Smash game
Premium
Joined
Apr 20, 2008
Messages
8,020
Location
Chicago, IL
Switch FC
SW-7001-5337-8820
My first suggestion ever in any "Ban MK" related thread was a temporary ban.


Almost everyone told me it was a stupid idea back then, but I still want something done about MK, besides surgical changes that people worm around and continue doing.
 

The_Altrox

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 23, 2007
Messages
1,602
Location
Youngstown, OH
NNID
The_Altrox
temp ban wouldn't work because so many TO's would just ignore it
What if we ask nicely and say "please"?

lol, I do think a temporary ban would be best if TOs could somehow be convinced... you could say that tourneys results with MK during the ban period would be discarded from ranking data, but there's probably some ethical code against that.
 

Chuee

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
6,002
Location
Kentucky
You can't control tournaments. Tourny rules are up to the TO and whether or not BBR recommends a ban doesn't matter.
 

Kewkky

Waiting for a new Smash game
Premium
Joined
Apr 20, 2008
Messages
8,020
Location
Chicago, IL
Switch FC
SW-7001-5337-8820
temp ban wouldn't work because so many TO's would just ignore it

...

then again TO's here would ignore it if the BBR recommended that MK be banned outright, people don't understand that this isn't melee and there is no MLG, the BBR doesn't have real authority. TO's create and discard rules on their own all the time, likewise if you want MK banned in your area you don't need to wait for them, do what xyro did and take it upon yourself.
I dunno, I'm pretty sure a nice number of TOs would ban MK if the SBR's recommended ruleset has "MK banned" in it.
 

Jack Kieser

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 11, 2008
Messages
2,961
Location
Seattle, WA
My first suggestion ever in any "Ban MK" related thread was a temporary ban.


Almost everyone told me it was a stupid idea back then, but I still want something done about MK, besides surgical changes that people worm around and continue doing.
I'm working on something, Kwekky; well, technically RDK and I are working on something. Some of the mods are discussing it, so hopefully I'll be able to post a full thread sometime today. It's a middle of the ground approach that hopefully will release tensions and still allow us to compile valuable data about MK...

We'll see where it goes, though.
 

BIGM1994

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 23, 2009
Messages
2,888
Location
Fairlawn, New Jersey
why should mk ever be banned in the 1st place? just stupid, anyway palpi ics are amazing and 3 grabs is game over with meta and ics can get him to a grab easily. ics are extremely good just not alot of ppl use him or are good
 

Dekar173

Justice Man
Joined
Jun 25, 2008
Messages
3,126
Location
Albuquerque, NM
temp ban wouldn't work because so many TO's would just ignore it

...

then again TO's here would ignore it if the BBR recommended that MK be banned outright, people don't understand that this isn't melee and there is no MLG, the BBR doesn't have real authority. TO's create and discard rules on their own all the time, likewise if you want MK banned in your area you don't need to wait for them, do what xyro did and take it upon yourself.
My state was the first state to ban MK lol. Tourney attendance plummeted, the tourney scene was angry/disheartened, so I just banned MK here, ever since (when we had a consistent tourney scene) attendance went up and people were happier in general.



Just as has been stated by others, you can't JUST cater to the top players. I AM a top player and I feel this way. You have to cater to the masses as well, because when you get down to it- the masses are what keep the money in the tourney scene and make it worth the effort, time, and money to travel across the country and play against other regions.
 

etecoon

Smash Hero
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
5,731
that's more or less what I was getting at, it differs by region. some area's might need to ban MK, some area's wouldn't be able to. I don't see a national ban going into effect because a lot of places will just disregard it. I don't see a problem with the way it is now, no ones saying you can't ban MK(after all, you have), every region can do as they please
 

Dekar173

Justice Man
Joined
Jun 25, 2008
Messages
3,126
Location
Albuquerque, NM
A lot of regions are afraid to ban MK/do things in general without the SBR's support.

I don't see what would be wrong if MK were officially banned, your region might not ban him in local tourneys etc, so what does it matter?

Nationals have been dominated by MK long enough, it's time to see some diversity.
 

etecoon

Smash Hero
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
5,731
I don't see what would be wrong if MK were officially banned, your region might not ban him in local tourneys etc, so what does it matter?
it doesn't matter that much to me. even if he were banned here I'm not strongly against picking another character. I could be pro or anti ban depending entirely on my mood at one particular moment lol

I think most diversity created by banning MK would be an artificial novelty that would wear off over time, people will still swarm to the best character, they just won't know who that is at first.
 

Xyro77

Unity Ruleset Committee Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2003
Messages
18,118
Location
Houston,Tx
I dunno, I'm pretty sure a nice number of TOs would ban MK if the SBR's recommended ruleset has "MK banned" in it.
yes. if the sbr made a choice and recommended that we ban metaknight. ALOT of the TOs would but not all.

If any of you TOs are scetchy on the meta ban thing. Just give it a shot and make ONE of your tournaments a meta ban event and just SEE how much fun you have and see how smash was MEANT to be played. CPing.
 

Kewkky

Waiting for a new Smash game
Premium
Joined
Apr 20, 2008
Messages
8,020
Location
Chicago, IL
Switch FC
SW-7001-5337-8820
I think most diversity created by banning MK would be an artificial novelty that would wear off over time, people will still swarm to the best character, they just won't know who that is at first.
Of course people will want the best character available, it's just that when MK disappears any candidate for "best character" will still be winnable by enough characters. I don't see anyone talking about Snake/Diddy/Falco/Wario/Marth/DDD the way people do about MK, which is that he revolves around techniques derived of stalling.
 

Jakandsig

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 12, 2009
Messages
145
Location
Beyond the mysterious beyond.
yes. if the sbr made a choice and recommended that we ban metaknight. ALOT of the TOs would but not all.

If any of you TOs are scetchy on the meta ban thing. Just give it a shot and make ONE of your tournaments a meta ban event and just SEE how much fun you have and see how smash was MEANT to be played. CPing.
But in that case, smash is SUPPOSED to be played with items.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom