Official Metaknight Discussion

[Kewkky]

But in that case, smash is SUPPOSED to be played with items.

Yes, but COMPETITIVE smash, the one WE CREATED, is meant to be played without items, by CP'ing.

 

[etecoon]

who said smash was all about CPing? most people are still going to cling to their mains, a few high tiers can't *really* be character CP'd, if I go all snake I'm not going to be bothered by someone getting off their main to play a character that barely beats me but they haven't practiced nearly as much.

 

[UltiMario]

But in that case, smash is SUPPOSED to be played with items.

I love this arguement.

If the game was supposed to be played using items, there would be no off button. End of story.
Now... for MK discussion...

I'm not too aware on other games and their scenes, but don't other scenes ban characters that were obviously made to be broken, like, kill everyone-in-two-hits-and-take-like-no-damage broken, where if you fought said character it was literally auto-lose because he would be so absurdedly powerful?

Anyone read this?

MK isn't broken and bannable like other broken characters in other games. Hes nowhere near as good as bannable characters in other games.

There is a fine line between god-awful annoying, and broken. MK is just annoying to fight, he isn't some impossible being of mass destruction, if he was, I could win any major tourney that didn't have MKs in it, and I'm just some no-name smasher.

 

[Kewkky]

who said smash was all about CPing? most people are still going to cling to their mains, a few high tiers can't *really* be character CP'd, if I go all snake I'm not going to be bothered by someone getting off their main to play a character that barely beats me but they haven't practiced nearly as much.

Top tiers aren't really affected by CPs... But the lower tiers are. And Melee was no different.

And I didn't say Smash was about CPing, I said the game was meant to be played with CPs that work (which is one of the oldest pro-ban arguments, that you can't gain any sort of advantage on MK by CPing, he still has ways of getting around any stage and stall the clock out... Practically one of the things that we've been talking about all along).

 

[etecoon]

and in what way are lower tiers relevant? they aren't viable period

and that was directed more at xyro, he's the one who said that a CP heavy game is the "way smash was meant to be played"

MK does have stage/character combinations that are bad, he can be CP'd to bad stages. no character beats him overall and diddy is the only one I'd consider a possible even, I'm just saying that this gloriously diverse game of character counterpicking that people like to say would exist without MK doesn't really work in reality, the best characters only lose most matchups by slight margins, you aren't improving your odds by using a character you're not as good with.

 

['V']

Just give it a shot and make ONE of your tournaments a meta ban event and just SEE how much fun you have and see how smash was MEANT to be played. CPing.

Cuz I'm sure turning off items 100% of the time and banning over half of the stages along with 70/30 or worse matchups and infintes were ALL of what Sakurai had envisioned for this game...

lol

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

My first suggestion ever in any "Ban MK" related thread was a temporary ban.


Almost everyone told me it was a stupid idea back then, but I still want something done about MK, besides surgical changes that people worm around and continue doing.

Exactly.

I thought the same way but no one payed attention 2 me cause of my post count. I love the community.

 

[Kewkky]

MK isn't broken and bannable like other broken characters in other games. Hes nowhere near as good as bannable characters in other games.

There is a fine line between god-awful annoying, and broken. MK is just annoying to fight, he isn't some impossible being of mass destruction, if he was, I could win any major tourney that didn't have MKs in it, and I'm just some no-name smasher.

Ugh, when will people stop putting words into our mouths? The rational pro-banners never say that MK is broken or impossible to defeat. We're saying that at the top of the metagame, if the MK player is being outskilled by a opponent, unless that opponent makes sure he never falls behind in stocks or %, then the MK player can and will use his very gay options -coupled with his great offensive:defensive game- to secure the victory in a way that makes the game unbearably boring/annoying for both the opponent and the viewers.



EDIT: Sorry about the double post, I forgot I posted while writing the next reply... I should really use the multi-quote button.

 

[Kewkky]

and in what way are lower tiers relevant? they aren't viable period

NickRiddle (ZSS) and his recent victory at a big tourney would like to get to know you better. Oh wait, what's ZSS... Bottom high/top mid? Isn't pro-ban the one who brought this point up anyway? Granted that all the best players weren't there unlike Pound4, it is still a victory at a big tourney, which should pretty much say something about that 'unviable' thing. Plus, wasn't MK given his own tier once? Pretty much everything Snake and below is considered "lower tier" when talking about MK.

And I don't mean bottom/low/mid, stop looking for what you want me to say when I don't say it.

and that was directed more at xyro, he's the one who said that a CP heavy game is the "way smash was meant to be played"

There could be a couple of people with the same ideals, you know?

Well, sorry for answering to your post, I guess I should be more careful when you don't directly address someone. I thought anyone could answer, this being a public forum and not a visitor message posting place.

MK does have stage/character combinations that are bad, he can be CP'd to bad stages. no character beats him overall and diddy is the only one I'd consider a possible even, I'm just saying that this gloriously diverse game of character counterpicking that people like to say would exist without MK doesn't really work in reality, the best characters only lose most matchups by slight margins, you aren't improving your odds by using a character you're not as good with.

Ok, let's see... People have said ICs, Falco, Snake, Diddy and Wario all had even matchups at one time, Diddy being the most recent. So far I haven't heard about anyone re-stating that ICs, Falco, Snake and Wario went dead even with MK, in fact only Diddy's being hyped like that because its top player (much like Ally used to say back then) says the MU is even. Since there's a hint of doubt and it's not universally agreed, it's quite obvious the best choice for fighting MK anywhere at all, and any time, is MK himself.

Pretty much kills the whole "CP" thing.

 

[UltiMario]

If MK is truely beatable, then all he is is gay/annoying to fight.

The point is, what other fighting games have banned character because they played annoying and gayly rather than being outright broken?

None from what I know, but feel free to correct me.

 

[Kewkky]

If MK is truely beatable, then all he is is gay/annoying to fight.

The point is, what other fighting games have banned character because they played annoying and gayly rather than being outright broken?

None from what I know, but feel free to correct me.

I can't think of any off the top of my head, but I CAN get you an example of a community that had a gay-but-not-broken character that never got banned no matter how much the community wanted him gone because he was not bannable, and the competitive scene died because of said character... Tekken 4 and his character, Jin.

 

[etecoon]

And I don't mean bottom/low/mid, stop looking for what you want me to say when I don't say it.

you said lower tiers, that's how it's going to be interpreted when you say that. ZSS is not a lower tier, lr2vocabulary

in fact only Diddy's being hyped like that because its top player (much like Ally used to say back then) says the MU is even

Ally said it was even? the only thing I'd heard from him on it until a few days ago(said 55:45 MK) was that it might be like 60:40 MK lol

So far I haven't heard about anyone re-stating that ICs, Falco

last I knew DEHF thinks falco is even if there's a LGL, I disagree but people thinking their character goes even with MK isn't that unusual

 

[Jakandsig]

I love this arguement.

If the game was supposed to be played using items, there would be no off button. End of story.
Now... for MK discussion...



Anyone read this?

MK isn't broken and bannable like other broken characters in other games. Hes nowhere near as good as bannable characters in other games.

There is a fine line between god-awful annoying, and broken. MK is just annoying to fight, he isn't some impossible being of mass destruction, if he was, I could win any major tourney that didn't have MKs in it, and I'm just some no-name smasher.

Error, items on by default. Therefore is reason why the game technically exists in the first place. fail.

 

[Kewkky]

Error, items on by default. Therefore is reason why the game technically exists in the first place. fail.

Yet there's an option to turn the items off, meaning that the game wants people who dislike items to turn them "off"... It's literally part of the game to be able to turn items "off", and one that the high-level players of our competitive community enjoy (no items). If the game has an option to turn "off" items, then we can safely say that the game was meant to be played with AND without items. Unless you believe that the game was also meant to be played against lv3 computers, with no names, in a 2-minute match with infinite stocks?

 

[Dark.Pch]

If MK is truely beatable, then all he is is gay/annoying to fight.

The point is, what other fighting games have banned character because they played annoying and gayly rather than being outright broken?

None from what I know, but feel free to correct me.

Akuma from street fighter

 

[Zankoku]

Akuma from street fighter

If you're talking about Super Street Fighter II Turbo's Akuma, he's a hidden boss character specifically designed to be overpowered. There is no debate that he is not outright broken.

If you're talking about any of the other Akumas, they're not banned.

 

[Kewkky]

you said lower tiers, that's how it's going to be interpreted when you say that. ZSS is not a lower tier, lr2vocabulary

If we're talking about top tier, and I say lower tiers, I mean tiers that are not top tier. It's excruciatingly obvious mid/low/bottom tiers would never have a chance either way unless a large amount of top/high tier characters were gone, which is just stupid to assume should be done... And ZSS IS a "lower tier character" compared to Top tier. Why the hell are you even arguing this with me? lrn2smart.

Ally said it was even? the only thing I'd heard from him on it until a few days ago(said 55:45 MK) was that it might be like 60:40 MK lol

45:55, 50:50 and 55:45 are all considered even. Very slight advantage and very slight disadvantage can be worked around with no trouble at all during the highest levels of play.

last I knew DEHF thinks falco is even if there's a LGL, I disagree but people thinking their character goes even with MK isn't that unusual

And who's DEHF? He's a top Falco player amirite? Which further proves my point that the top players can be wrong about MUs from time to time. >_______>

 

[etecoon]

45:55, 50:50 and 55:45 are all considered even

no, they aren't. 50:50 is even. slight (dis)advantage =/= even.

 

[Kewkky]

no, they aren't. 50:50 is even. slight (dis)advantage =/= even.

Ask anyone else and they'll disagree with you. 45:55, 50:50 and 55:45 are considered "even" when discussing MUs.

 

[etecoon]

this is pointless

 

[The Brigand]

Yet there's an option to turn the items off, meaning that the game wants people who dislike items to turn them "off"... It's literally part of the game to be able to turn items "off", and one that the high-level players of our competitive community enjoy (no items). If the game has an option to turn "off" items, then we can safely say that the game was meant to be played with AND without items. Unless you believe that the game was also meant to be played against lv3 computers, with no names, in a 2-minute match with infinite stocks?

This is true! This is very true. Unfortunately, the rebuttal you were responding to was in regards to the point: "The options to turn items off exists, therefore they are not meant to be played with".

Now of course, that's completely ridiculous and odds are he didn't actually mean that, but that only highlights the fact that he seriously failed at wording that post properly.

 

[UltiMario]

I can't think of any off the top of my head, but I CAN get you an example of a community that had a gay-but-not-broken character that never got banned no matter how much the community wanted him gone because he was not bannable, and the competitive scene died because of said character... Tekken 4 and his character, Jin.

The problem with this is that Tekken 4 was already disliked as being a mediocre game, and it overall didn't have the greatest reception. Jin wasn't the main reason Tekken 4 died, its like why people still play Melee, they just don't find Brawl at that same level.

Not to mention that Brawl's community is roughly 2-3X larger than the Tekken community.

 

[etecoon]

The problem with this is that Tekken 4 was already disliked as being a mediocre game, and it overall didn't have the greatest reception.

the similarity is uncanny!

 

[Kewkky]

Well, etecoon wanted to stop talking about it, so meh.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

LOL. only about a week and this thread spawns and has almost 70 pages.

 

[etecoon]

Well, let's see... DEHF says the MK vs Falco MU is even with LGLs in effect. This means that, if we're to use the SBR's ruleset, Falco is NOT even with MK.

perfect example of why the BBR doesn't matter, the rule evolved entirely without them. if you want MK banned, just start hosting MK banned tournaments, the rules are never going to be universal anyway.

 

[ShadowLink84]

If you're talking about Super Street Fighter II Turbo's Akuma, he's a hidden boss character specifically designed to be overpowered. There is no debate that he is not outright broken.

If you're talking about any of the other Akumas, they're not banned.

HD remix Akuma was banned wasn't he?

 

[MarKO X]

the similarity is uncanny!

ummm... actually... Brawl received waaay better reception than tekken 4.

Unless you're only comparing the reception of the competitive players.

 

[etecoon]

Unless you're only comparing the reception of the competitive players.

this is what our community is made of so...yeah.

 

[MarKO X]

HD remix Akuma was banned wasn't he?

he was banned @ Evo 2k9, but overall, it's still questionable.
He's kinda like MK, but without the domination... everyone plays everyone else, so it's not that serious. At least not yet.

 

[Kewkky]

perfect example of why the BBR doesn't matter, the rule evolved entirely without them. if you want MK banned, just start hosting MK banned tournaments, the rules are never going to be universal anyway.

Yes it does matter if they recommend MK to be banned. Apart from LGL and "banned infinites" rules TOs implement into their tourneys, they use the SBR's ruleset as a format to how they will change the rules for their current tourney... They always start out with the basic, which is the SBR's Recommended Ruleset.

If the SBR recommends MK to be banned, then TOs who look to SmashBoards for a list of the rules (as well as those who want to keep up with the current metagame based off of the SBR's recommendations and tier lists) will see that MK is banned (much like stages and items and IDC and everything else), and immediately leave it there. What TOs do when they change the rules is do minor edits that won't affect the gameplay as much as it should. An extra stage won't affect the game because no one would want to pick any stage besides the one they're accustomed to play with anyway. An LGL is implemented by TOs to try and control MK's gayness because they know that he's a problem that might affect the turnout of players in the future if they don't do anything about it.

How do I know? Well, let's just say that I'm a "Smash Director".


And if the SBR-B doesn't matter, why in the world are you here debating why MK should/shouldn't be banned? If you're SO sure no one will pay attention to anything they say, then why bother arguing against the banning of MK?

 

[UltiMario]

The difference is that Casual AND competative players weren't too keen on Tekken 4, actually, nobody really wanted to play Tekken 4 much at all.

Brawl was extremely well recieved barring a decent chunk of the competative community, but we still play it because Brawl is an amazing game, not as compatative as Melee, but still an amazing game.

 

[etecoon]

then TOs who look to SmashBoards for a list of the rules (as well as those who want to keep up with the current metagame based off of the SBR's recommendations and tier lists) will see that MK is banned (much like stages and items and IDC and everything else), and immediately leave it there

this basically assumes that TO's don't follow the community or have understanding of the game themselves. of course starting from a premade set of rules is easy and everyone does it, but it's still their decision and a lot of them won't go along with it. speaking purely hypothetical here, I really don't think the BBR will get a ban passed. I think the best strategy for getting MK banned would be grass roots, just start banning him at your locals and try to spread it.

The difference is that Casual AND competative players weren't too keen on Tekken 4, actually, nobody really wanted to play Tekken 4 much at all.

the casual portion of the brawl community isn't comparable to "casual" players of another fighting game because brawl isn't a fighting game, we made it into a fighting game.

And if the SBR-B doesn't matter, why in the world are you here debating why MK should/shouldn't be banned? If you're SO sure no one will pay attention to anything they say, then why bother arguing against the banning of MK?

who said I'm against it? it doesn't really matter to me personally, I just find the subject interesting. I've said plenty of things that would imply that banning MK is actually a favorable thing to do, such as the fact that it's the only way to really end the stalling/planking problem as no one else can get around the ledge grab limit the way MK does.

and I didn't say no one will pay attention, I said a lot won't. especially in this region where I think chibo is like the only prominent pro ban TO(money back!). definitely MK banned tournaments would be more common, but I think that would really just splinter brawl, he wouldn't be conclusively banned and it would just fracture the community more than it is now.

 

[Kewkky]

The difference is that Casual AND competative players weren't too keen on Tekken 4, actually, nobody really wanted to play Tekken 4 much at all.

Brawl was extremely well recieved barring a decent chunk of the competative community, but we still play it because Brawl is an amazing game, not as compatative as Melee, but still an amazing game.

My source was a top player from Tekken. He saw it all first-hand, and he's now PR's Smash Community's travel agent, practically. I don't think any source could be more reliable than a top player of the game who played it and saw the community first-hand, and also plays Brawl and watches the tourneys. He told me that Brawl is going through the same phase as Tekken4. And the community WAS large. Obviously not as large as SF (this past EVO it had ~1,000 entrants for SF4 only!), but is Smash in general any different to Tekken in general, in this case?

 

[tocador]

70 page get!

JK

Teken 4 isnt really alike smash, in fact, no game is like smash, and as such no one can be compared to smash

/elitism off

Kewky has a point, but even tho, i dont think MK will kill brawl. What will kill brawl is the ignorance of players.

 

[Chuee]

Brawl isn't dying, I don't know where that tekken guy is getting his info from.

 

[Zankoku]

HD remix Akuma was banned wasn't he?

I forgot about that one. HD Remix Akuma is an interesting case, not in the least helped by the coding mistakes regarding him (no hitboxes during startup of fireball? wtf). I believe EVO's stance was this:

STHD didnt change all that much from vanilla ST, a few character tweaks and balance options, but no new gameplay elements. That would constitute the same game. Akuma has always been banned in ST, so the question was "Do we keep him banned, or remove the ban?"

Akuma was too powerful and had a corner lockdown in the original. He was tweaked and given a super meter, which in turn makes him too powerful.

We waited as long as possible before banning him, even after several major events had occured. The problem is, Damdai the key Akuma player didn't play him at these tournaments. This means either that he has moved on from the character, or is saving his strats for a national event.

Even the rebalancer for the game, David Sirlin said he made some poor choices on Akuma, and that was not the way he was supposed to end up.

When you can see the immediate brokenness of a character, but dont see him in tournament play, something is fishy, so we decided to keep the ban on Akuma.

This will be the last post in this topic, as to you have our reasoning, and we will leave it at that.

 

[Kewkky]

Brawl isn't dying, I don't know where that tekken guy is getting his info from.

Do you go to tourneys? Do you stay with the times while the metagame changes? Have you seen other fighting communities first-hand? How long have you been around other competitive scenes? How can you be so sure when someone who HAS been to other communities at least has experience to back up his claims? Why should HE be wrong and YOU be right, what makes you so special? At least he has experience and he's been accepted as a top player in his respective community, as well as traveled out-of-country.

Actually, you're getting your info from where...?

 

[Sorto]

Pro Banners Please Answer This (all questions please):
1. Simple question, should be a yes, do you believe MetaKnight is banworthy?
2. Do you then believe that MetaKnight is a BROKEN character? And what constitutes a BROKEN character?
3. If and only if your answer to 2 was YES, besides MKs ability to stall and run the timer, due to planking, air camping, scrooging and the like, what makes MetaKnight, the character itself, BROKEN in actual combat (moveset, defensively, offensively)?
4. Can planking, air camping, or scrooging all be done effectively by atleast one other character besides MK (character must be able to do atleast one of the techniques effectively, not all)?
5. Do you believe that if a game has a decisive best character, that pros and noobs will both flock to that character?
6. Doesn't it make sense that the best players would also often play the best character(s)?
7. What means more in upper levels of play, the skill of the player, or the character itself, assuming the matchup isnt extremely in either characters favor (assume no worse the 60:40)?
8. In your opinion why does MK disserve to be banned?

 

[Chuee]

Do you go to tourneys? Do you stay with the times while the metagame changes? Have you seen other fighting communities first-hand? How long have you been around other competitive scenes? How can you be so sure when someone who HAS been to other communities at least has experience to back up his claims? Why should HE be wrong and YOU be right, what makes you so special? At least he has experience and he's been accepted as a top player in his respective community, as well as traveled out-of-country.

Actually, you're getting your info from where...?

This guy is your travel agent. Maybe brawl is dying in PR, but in the US I don't see any signs of it dying.