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Official Metaknight Discussion

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Kewkky

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Snake has no bad matchups. They are all even or in his favor.
Nah, I'm pretty sure some campy-as-balls Falcos and DDDs can do something about that. I know Snake can duck under lasers, but how can you duck under lasers that Falco shoots as he drops off the stage then jumps back on it? you know, those lasers that are freakin' glued to the floor? And theoretically Snake can do a lot against DDD, but what about a shield-happy DDD, that keeps his cool and only grabs when he powershields an approach AND doesn't approach yet pressures by ftilting/spamming Waddles?
 

MarKO X

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Throw some curve balls at me. Why do you guys wanna' ban Metaknight?
I have a curve ball.
Do you think the Ledge Grab Rules benefit MK?
 

Omni

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Personally, I don't care if he gets banned. I just like to debate, it's fun.

Why do you want him to not be banned? Any reason other than the fact that you use him?
Fact #1: During the time I argued for MK's anti-ban side I officially retired from the game. Didn't plan on coming back and was extremely absorbed in SF4.

Fact #2: I approached the MK ban issue from a neutral standpoint upon entering the the BBR.

The fact that I use MK has nothing to do with my stance.

However, the fact that I use MK means I am pretty knowledgeable on the majority of his match-ups and how tough/easy they can be.
 

¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯

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Fact #1: During the time I argued for MK's anti-ban side I officially retired from the game. Didn't plan on coming back and was extremely absorbed in SF4.

Fact #2: I approached the MK ban issue from a neutral standpoint upon entering the the BBR.

The fact that I use MK has nothing to do with my stance.

However, the fact that I use MK means I am pretty knowledgeable on the majority of his match-ups and how tough/easy they can be.
Interesting. I didn't know you'd retired.
 

.AC.

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Nah, I'm pretty sure some campy-as-balls Falcos and DDDs can do something about that. I know Snake can duck under lasers, but how can you duck under lasers that Falco shoots as he drops off the stage then jumps back on it? you know, those lasers that are freakin' glued to the floor? And theoretically Snake can do a lot against DDD, but what about a shield-happy DDD, that keeps his cool and only grabs when he powershields an approach AND doesn't approach yet pressures by ftilting/spamming Waddles?
snake chaingrabs falco getting ~40% for every grab depending on stage, and outcamps him, he outcamps dedede as well because well... his camping kills eventually.

@mav: fox/snake is even, at least from what i've played with tkd.
 

Omni

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I have a curve ball.
Do you think the Ledge Grab Rules benefit MK?
Uh... Ledge Grab Rule... being allowed to grab the ledge only a certain amount of times.

Since MK ***** the ledge I don't see how it would benefit him having a restriction to how many times he grabs it unless you know something I don't know.

Oh, and about Snake, he has no bad match-ups. Only even ones, imo.

Candy thinks Snake vs. DDD is 55/45 in Snake's favor. Snake just has too many options for DDD's linear playstyle.
 

Crow!

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@.AC.

Since you randomly selected D3 and Snake to hate on, I'll give props to both of them.

There are good things to be said about what D3 and Snake do to the metagame (each can be counterpicked, for starters, and the viable counterpick list is very nonlinear in the tier list which is cool, too, and notably the counterpicks for D3 are not the same as the counterpicks for Snake, which makes the network of characters even more interesting).

There are good things to be said about what D3 and Snake do to the strategic situation in the game (with D3, if he chaingrabs you, clever usage of platforms can keep you safer, but you might not always want to do it.. the decisions are complicated. Snake's stage control with explosives is probably the most interesting strategic dillema presented in any smash game so far.)

There are good things to be said about what D3 and Snake do for making the game more exciting (think of the cheering that occurs when D3 lands a mindgamed sweetspotted FSmash, or when Snake breaks a shield and sets up a Wargasm, or when Snake is grabbed out of his cypher and needs to c4 recover.)


MK pretty much fails on all those fronts (and more factors could be considered, but this is already long enough.)

Whether he improves the diversity in the metagame isn't argued, the amount by which he reduces it is.

Strategically, MK is a light character with instant, combo-stopping, safe attacks, who cannot really be attacked offstage, and isn't any worse on the ground than in the air, and isn't any easier or harder to approach from the front vs the back vs the top vs the bottom, and never has to worry about landing with so many jumps and a plethora of safe ways to land even if he does choose to fake out his landing so many times that he runs out of those jumps... the list goes on. Point is, he's never any better or worse off in one situation versus another. (The reason he planks/scrooges/air camps off stage so well is because most characters lose the majority of their options when going goes offstage.. MK isn't affected.) Strategy basically doesn't exist for MK; any strategy in a game with a MK in it is borrowed from the strategic interests of the character he plays against.

As for excitement, the only cheering you'll hear in a MK game is if people see him lose - at the tourney I went to more people watched the all items on free for all side event than M2K vs BlueRogue grand finals for the real tourney; in the middle of that match people started leaving; apparently the grand finals of an event they devoted their entire day to wasn't exciting enough to bother watching since it involved a MK who was going to win.


Edit: wow, too much posting. The post by .AC. I was responding to was like two pages ago now after I composed this response.
 

Chuee

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Nah, I'm pretty sure some campy-as-balls Falcos and DDDs can do something about that. I know Snake can duck under lasers, but how can you duck under lasers that Falco shoots as he drops off the stage then jumps back on it? you know, those lasers that are freakin' glued to the floor? And theoretically Snake can do a lot against DDD, but what about a shield-happy DDD, that keeps his cool and only grabs when he powershields an approach AND doesn't approach yet pressures by ftilting/spamming Waddles?
Snake vs Falco is even and so is D3. Snake's worst MU is 55-45 other characters favor.
EDIT: BPC, snake v Oli is in noway a hard counter for snake. Stop thinking early 2009 ._.
 

Omni

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I realize I may be a little behind the times, but last I checked (a month ago or so), oli was verging on a hard counter for snake with about 65-35.
No . x10

Listen, the majority of the people who make these "match-up percentages" are stay at home wifi forum monsters who theorize things that could and might happen. There only a few legit people who contribute to those match-ups and a LOT of people who know the match-up well but don't contribute at all.

So do not take what Smashboards Character match-up ratios say for heart.

If Oli had such a huge advantage over Snake like that... trust me... there would be a ****load more Oli's out there.
 

Chuee

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No . x10

Listen, the majority of the people who make these "match-up percentages" are stay at home wifi forum monsters who theorize things that could and might happen. There only a few legit people who contribute to those match-ups and a LOT of people who know the match-up well but don't contribute at all.

So do not take what Smashboards Character match-up ratios say for heart.

If Oli had such a huge advantage over Snake like that... trust me... there would be a ****load more Oli's out there.
QFT
10QFT's
 

DanGR

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I realize I may be a little behind the times, but last I checked (a month ago or so), oli was verging on a hard counter for snake with about 65-35.
It has always been considered around even, more or less.

The only ones that think Oli hard counters Snake are... exactly the players you'd expect... the ones that don't know the matchup.

And that's a lot of people, apparently. >.>

edit:
Eh I got this from Dabuz. Granted, it was a while back... Yeah, I'll shut up now, lol. :laugh:
What, Dabuz said Oli beat Snake handily? Or am I reading this incorrectly.
 

ADHD

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Olimar is even with snake, or possibly gets beaten slightly. DDD is 50-50, I've witnessed this matchup so much to conclude that DDD has no problem racking up damage but he suffers badly when he has to kill snake and snake makes massive comebacks and somehow gets the stock off before DDD. I've watched Ally play tons of DDDs.

I feel like the top tiers previous "counters" became dead even as time went by. Diddy's only bad matchup is snake which is 60-40, he used to have about 8.
 

Kewkky

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snake chaingrabs falco getting ~40% for every grab depending on stage, and outcamps him, he outcamps dedede as well because well... his camping kills eventually.
I don't want to go into an MU discussion for Snake, just know that Snake isn't nearly as cheap as Mk can be at the top of his metagame. Snake actually plays in a way that "outsmarting the player" is a viable strategy, as opposed to planking/scrooging/platform dair camping/smart tornado spamming/whatever floats each pro-banner's boat.
 

Crow!

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Listen, the majority of the people who make these "match-up percentages" are stay at home wifi forum monsters who theorize things that could and might happen. There only a few legit people who contribute to those match-ups and a LOT of people who know the match-up well but don't contribute at all.

So do not take what Smashboards Character match-up ratios say for heart.

If Oli had such a huge advantage over Snake like that... trust me... there would be a ****load more Oli's out there.
I agree with the first part - even in the cases where the ratios were determinted by good players, a lot of them are massively outdated. They're a good starting point for discussion, though, as they usually are right between players with middle skill levels. Still, they are the status quo, and if you want to claim that things have changed significantly from the chart, you have to go back and do the matchup analysis properly... which of course is a lot of work and requires that you actually know the matchup yourself.

As for the last sentence, though, that would only be true IF Snake dominated the tourney scene AND Olimar were the one of only a few viable ways to deal with him. Neither is true; heck, even Link has a close to even matchup with him.

The logic you use is better suited to explaining the relative popularity of the non-MK top tiers compared to most of the rest of the non-MK cast... as they're the only viable ways for people who hate MK to deal with MK, who is MUCH more common than even Snake and Diddy. In fact, characters are pretty much top tier or not top tier BECAUSE of however the MK matchup goes. Pull off the one common link and the strategic situation becomes significantly more complex and interesting.
 

MajorMoses

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Yeah, well ADHD clearly doesn't watch the REAL pros at work. Heck, I bet he wouldn't know an amazing Brawl player if he was talking to one in person. He most certainly has never been to a tournament...
 

Z1GMA

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This thread is 2 guud.
Endless trolling, random attacks,
and Facepalm after Facepalm, heh...
 
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