Updated with Tyrant's performance.
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Official Metaknight Discussion
- Thread starter Hylian
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theunabletable
Smash Lord
Not hinging. There are more reasons for why he shouldn't be banned (depending on the criteria for the ban, of course). You know I really wish pro-ban people would post some sort of criteria for why something should be banned.
Can someone tell me what it is EXACTLY about MK that makes him deserve a ban?
Dark.Pch
Smash Legend
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You have got to be joking with asking this question. And you play meta for that matter. Do you know anything about your character to begin with?
Jim Morrison
Smash Authority
You can't ****ing clank with his attacks while they have long range.
It's like fighting Falco's Lasers attached to Sonic.
It's like fighting Falco's Lasers attached to Sonic.
Are you seriously asking that question?
I'm not even gonna answer that. Read the whole thread once again, good sir.
EDIT: That's proof that he skims through half the posts in this thread. Overswarm even links his old posts everywhere, everyone mentions something that they find banworthy about MK in each post. I have no idea what compelled you to ask that question.
Black Marf
Smash Apprentice
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Basically, MK's too strong against every single character, and it hurts game balance. Specific criteria need to be examined to answer the question "what is too strong", but oh well.Me said:
That said, I'm rereading these so I might as well link them in this thread. I'm going to be surprised (haha no I'm not) if anyone taking part in this debate hasn't read them, but sometimes it's good to do some rereading.
Playing to Win: http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.html
Balancing Multiplayer Games, Part 1: http://www.sirlin.net/articles/balancing-multiplayer-games-part-1-definitions.html
Balancing Multiplayer Games, Part 2: http://www.sirlin.net/articles/balancing-multiplayer-games-part-2-viable-options.html
Balancing Multiplayer Games, Part 3: http://www.sirlin.net/articles/balancing-multiplayer-games-part-3-fairness.html
Balancing Multiplayer Games, Part 4: http://www.sirlin.net/articles/balancing-multiplayer-games-part-4-intuition.html
Now I'm not linking these because Sirlin is some philosopher king of fighting games (he's not), so we should take his word as truth. I'm linking them for the same reasons that you have to read like 20 or so Philosopher's writings in a Philosophy course. Reading different perspectives helps to hone one's opinion on that subject matter, as well as help you to better defend and understand your arguments and stance.
EDIT: Complexity vs Depth: http://www.design.wrong.net/2008/05/20/complexity-vs-depth/
Might as well reread this too.
theunabletable
Smash Lord
Mostly asking for a summary; because I didn't feel like going through 800 posts to respond to a stupid debate.
Should the DDD infinite on DK be banned, then; because it limits viability?
I haven't read playing to win in a while. And I didn't care for the MK ban discussion last time I read it, so I might as well reread it some time soon.
See, the difference between DDD vs DK infinite, and MK's dilemma, is actually quite clear... DDD/DK is character-specific, MK is universal.
The_Altrox
Smash Lord
I can't say I'm fully pro-ban, but imo, a temporary ban lasting several months (at least past a big name tourney) would be worth testing to see the results (assuming TOs play along)
as for the MK mains not playing along...
a. They don't play. I'm sure many of them have secondaries worth using. If not, we could get data of an MK free zone.
b. They play using different characters and prove their skill on a level of not using a broken character.
after a few months, we can make a decision, or temporarily re-add MK to see the reaction overall.
This has probably been brought up, but there would be little harm in trying.
as for the MK mains not playing along...
a. They don't play. I'm sure many of them have secondaries worth using. If not, we could get data of an MK free zone.
b. They play using different characters and prove their skill on a level of not using a broken character.
after a few months, we can make a decision, or temporarily re-add MK to see the reaction overall.
This has probably been brought up, but there would be little harm in trying.
.AC.
Smash Lord
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dedede is pretty much low tier's worst matchup i say we ban him.
AvaricePanda
Smash Lord
Doesn't this just raise people's stress levels? I know I've said that there haven't been relatively any new arguments for a year a million times and it's getting old, but jeez. People are insulting/attacking/flaming each other over points that have already been made 50 times already.
At this point, I'm pretty neutral, but neutral=not banning until cold-hard proof that he unquestionably deserves a ban (so pretty much anti-ban, but I'm not going to argue for it much). However, since the whole issue is largely subjective at this point, can you honestly expect him to be banned when nothing has changed since the last 4 official MK poll threads (and he wasn't banned in any)?
At this point, I'm pretty neutral, but neutral=not banning until cold-hard proof that he unquestionably deserves a ban (so pretty much anti-ban, but I'm not going to argue for it much). However, since the whole issue is largely subjective at this point, can you honestly expect him to be banned when nothing has changed since the last 4 official MK poll threads (and he wasn't banned in any)?
ADHD
Smash Hero
I can still lose to a MK, I just feel he is equally matched by the other top tiers. Look at DEHF, and fiction's once wario game was killer vs metaknight. There are multiple others, it's not just ME and ALLY.
Even with DDD('s infinite) banned, those low tiers won't be going anywhere. And there's plenty of characters that can give DDD mainers a run for their money... Namely top/high tier, not just another DDD!
That's another difference between DDD's case and MK's case... DDD has a number of answers, the only reliable answer to MK is, well... Himself. Even a number of pro Diddies (save ADHD) say once MKs everywhere learn how to abuse bananas, and once MKs keep an eye out for those hidden Diddy-specific tricks they don't wanna share... The matchup isn't gonna be even anymore. Snake's supposed "even" MU is also tilting towards MK now, as you can see by M2K's new battle strategies against Ally, so that's both the top alleged "even" characters losing their ground eventually.
It's extremely upsetting to think that a character could be banned for reasons that I believe are rather silly.
That's more detrimental to the game than keeping a character like MK in could ever be, and the reality is that it could happen.
ADHD
Smash Hero
If that were the case then anti's mk (in which I play anti more than any other person in this community) would wreck me. He is the best mk vs diddy, or was possibly even possibly the best player vs the character at one point when he was super active. He knows every in and out of my playstyle and has beaten ninjalink a few times as well.
ADHD
Smash Hero
Ban snake plz.
.AC.
Smash Lord
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**** YEAH!! someone knows what they are talking about, now all you need is a ban snake sig.
Crow!
Smash Lord
Looking through here (not thoroughly mind you... pretty long thread here and posts come almost faster than I can read lol), anti-ban seems to be trying to argue that adding MK to the game is not excessively bad.
As someone who toys with the idea of designing games, that just doesn't seem like the right attitude. Things shouldn't be added to a game willy-nilly; if it makes the game better, then you put it in. If it doesn't, you either put something else in or you leave it out, knowing that the game will be a better game without that component.
It seems odd that anti-ban is trying to tone down the degree to which MK hurts the overall value of Brawl as a competitive game, rather than claiming that the addition of that character is a good thing. If MK doesn't make the game more exciting, or more strategically interesting, or more diverse, or any of those other good things you want in a game, and if even the minority of the community that wants him to continue being put into the game doesn't have anything good to say about what MK does to the metagame as a whole or to the individual games played, then it seems pretty clear that MK was a bad game component.
Why would you ever not make a game better than it currently is, given an extremely easy way to make it so? Even if the amount by which the game improves were small (and the majority of the community seems to think that it's not small), it still seems to me like it should be an easy decision.
As someone who toys with the idea of designing games, that just doesn't seem like the right attitude. Things shouldn't be added to a game willy-nilly; if it makes the game better, then you put it in. If it doesn't, you either put something else in or you leave it out, knowing that the game will be a better game without that component.
It seems odd that anti-ban is trying to tone down the degree to which MK hurts the overall value of Brawl as a competitive game, rather than claiming that the addition of that character is a good thing. If MK doesn't make the game more exciting, or more strategically interesting, or more diverse, or any of those other good things you want in a game, and if even the minority of the community that wants him to continue being put into the game doesn't have anything good to say about what MK does to the metagame as a whole or to the individual games played, then it seems pretty clear that MK was a bad game component.
Why would you ever not make a game better than it currently is, given an extremely easy way to make it so? Even if the amount by which the game improves were small (and the majority of the community seems to think that it's not small), it still seems to me like it should be an easy decision.
Budget Player Cadet_
Smash Hero
Olimar, ZSS, arguably Pit, maybe Marth, DDD.
Ew. No. DDD and Snake have bad matchups.
EDIT: Actually, I'm going to go out on a limb and assume you're trolling.
You're joking, right? Snake, Diddy, Wario, Ice Climbers, and Falco do just fine against him. Watch out for poor statements like these.
Overly dramatized conversation I had with a pro-ban member who will remain anonymous.
"Let's ban, MK. He's too strong!"
"But... a Diddy and a Snake just placed Top 3 at a National tournament?"
"Eh, but he's still broken."
"But... the best MK player in the U.S. was just 3-0'ed in Grand Finals and beaten horribly."
"Eh... M2K doesn't know the match-up. He's horrible at it."
"But... didn't he beat Ninjalink a few sets before the same match?"
"Eh... well that happened because Ninjalink doesn't know the matchup! His Diddy isn't that good."
"..."
"But... a Zero Suit Samus just took 1st by 3-0'ing one of the best MK's in the nation."
"Eh... well he didn't know the match-up. If he knew the match-up, MK would ****!"
"But... he plays this guy all the time. He may know it better than anyone else."
"Eh... well, he just doesn't know what he's doing. MK ***** everyone!"
"But... the metagame is clearly showing that non-MK characters can still take 1st in their region."
"Eh... well if they won it's because it was fluke. MK wins on paper against everyone everytime! He destroys nearly all of the cast!"
"What do you mean?"
"Well, if MK was gone, so many more mid and lower tier characters would be viable!"
"Wouldn't that be the same with DDD and Ice Climbers?"
"Yeah, but, it's MK. Let's ban him."
M@v
Subarashii!
Dont people realize even if mk gets "banned", most people will still hold tourneys where he's not banned anyway? No offense but I don't think a lot of people will listen to it, especially NJ.
Also, I really don't care what happens to mk. I don't think hes that difficult, but maybe its because I actually take time to learn matchups and not make johns about it.
Eh. If he gets banned one less matchup to worry about I guess. But its not going to happen.
Also, I really don't care what happens to mk. I don't think hes that difficult, but maybe its because I actually take time to learn matchups and not make johns about it.
Eh. If he gets banned one less matchup to worry about I guess. But its not going to happen.
.AC.
Smash Lord
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loool this is amazing.
MajorMoses
Smash Journeyman
Sounds like that pro-ban member didn't really know what he was talking about. If you want, we can get the more educated pro-ban members to have this same kinda conversation with an uneducated anti-ban member.
Going by the logic that we are here to write rules to design a game of our own beyond just what is necessary, I'd advocate only allowing mid tiers and lower, seeing as how that would make a maze of matchups that would largely promote diversity.
The question regarding banning Meta Knight, however, is not "is the game better without him?"
Well, you should take it up with your fellow Diddy mainers, the majority seems convinced that a day will come when MK will dominate them harder than he does now.
And about playstyles, hmm... I play against RATED's snake all the time, I mean ALL the time. I know him in and out, what Snake's attacks do to me, their hitstun, the ranges, damage output, when will they be stale enough to not kill me, where I should DI, what to do with grenades, landing patterns... Seriously, there was even one time I thought Kirby vs Snake was dead even. But what happened? Well, I was too accustomed to his playstyle and used THAT as my analysis for the MU. When I played against another Snake pro from PR (DooM, yeah what a common name), I lost because he was mixing it up really well, in ways that I didn't realize RATED should've been doing to me all along.
That doesn't mean that Kirby vs Snake is still even, it just means that playing against RATED all this time gave me the illusion that the MU was even, but in actuality, it was a 40:60 all along. RATED now destroys whatever Kirby decides to show his face in his brackets, and I destroy every Snake that I find in mine (obviously, here in PR and not in USA). We both know both MUs extremely freakin' well, but it still doesn't mean it's even.
Now, I'm not saying that Diddy vs MK isn't even, you and all the diddies/MKs should know that better than me. But, just so you know, illusions tend to happen during friendlies, especially when you play a lot against them.
.AC.
Smash Lord
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there really is no way for you to prove whether he knew what he was talking about or not.
¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯
Smash Legend
Except that no one on the pro ban side is arguing that way. Except the person you talked to, who doesn't really know what he/she is talking about. No offense anonymous person.
ADHD
Smash Hero
Snake has no bad matchups. They are all even or in his favor.
Budget Player Cadet_
Smash Hero
Olimar, ZSS, DDD.
You would be surprised by who the actual person I talked to really was.
I'm kinda' bored so I'll join the debate for a while.
Throw some curve balls at me. Why do you guys wanna' ban Metaknight?
.AC.
Smash Lord
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those are all even, as a matter of fact he probably beats zss and olimar.
I really don't see Olimar or ZSS against Snake being any better than even for them.
¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯
Smash Legend
Personally, I don't care if he gets banned. I just like to debate, it's fun.You would be surprised by who the actual person I talked to really was.
I'm kinda' bored so I'll join the debate for a while.
Throw some curve balls at me. Why do you guys wanna' ban Metaknight?
Why do you want him to not be banned? Any reason other than the fact that you use him?
M@v
Subarashii!
DDD Beats him, and I still personally feel Fox edges him out 55:45, but thats still pretty much even. Also, Mk beats him stage dependant.
¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯
Smash Legend
M@v
Subarashii!
Yeah he said he just switched. Also, because he knows mk isnt broken?
Jakandsig
Smash Apprentice
You're joking right?
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