Official Metaknight Discussion

[Ripple]

...Which is why we don't have a rule against it in Brawl. I was assuming he was talking about the Melee ruling, since that's the only game that it's actually relevant in.

my bad. people were talking about it earlier in brawl too

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

so we should ban mk so more people can have a chance? ooh yeah lets ban dedede while we are at it.

You took that out of context. Of course that's a stupid reason.

 

[Overswarm]

D3 has counters. >_>

 

[Sorto]

...Which is why we don't have a rule against it in Brawl. I was assuming he was talking about the Melee ruling, since that's the only game that it's actually relevant in.

I meant melee. But Scrooging also makes you unreachable by certain characters, if you combine it with jumping and UP-b and such. The opponent would have to go under the stage to hit you and may not be able to get back.

Its actually more similar to peach bomber I guess. Since during that technique you are close enough to the stage to get hit, but going after you would be very very risky. That technique was also banned.

 

[Black Marf]

No everyone admits that MK can be beat. They just say that people who are not good can't beat MK. So we should ban MK in competition (a contest to see who the best is) because the players who are not good and won't get top 3 anyways can't beat him.

It makes complete sense.

It doesn't make sense because you're strawmanning the probanners.

The probanners believe that MK offers an unfair advantage to the MK player. Because the MK player has that advantage, an inferior player will beat a superior player relatively consistently because of the advantages offered by MK. These advantages offered to MK players are consistent at high levels of play. This means that MK players at high levels of play can beat superior players (who main other characters) because of all the options offered to the MK player.

Basically, they're saying that MK should be banned in competition because his existence makes it impossible to see who the best is. MK players of substandard level are capable of beating players much beyond their level because they play MK.

By extension, the only reason ADHD/Ally can beat MK players is because they played that much better than the MK players in question at the time of them winning. Whether because they were on, knew the matchup better, or are just that much better than the MK players.


I believe the probanners side of the argument could be best understood by a related quote.

A multiplayer game is balanced if a reasonably large number of options available to the player are viable--especially, but not limited to, during high-level play by expert players.

Including MK in the metagame limits the number of viable characters that can be picked. More specifically, it limits how viable options other than MK, Diddy, and Snake are. Probanners are attempting to balance the character selection process through surgery.

 

[Sorto]

OS do you believe that MK is BROKEN?

 

[Jim Morrison]

With emphasis on competitive. They didn't ban MJ, Magic, or Larry Bird (did he have a nickname? wth)

The Bird.

NBA street has taught me so much.

 

[Dark.Pch]

That's all fine and well, you can have your own agenda for getting into the competitive smash scene. Hell, I play Mario. I obviously have one of my own.

But you CANNOT expect rules made for competitive players to cater toward everyone; competitive and casual gamers alike. You can't expect the higher-ups to ban MK because you're unwilling to make your own adjustments to beat him.

Not the point dude. What I quoted from you to begin with seemed like you are saying "why play this game if you are not playing to be the best" Thus sounding like, if you are not playing to be the best, don't play in tournies at all. People play for many reasons such as my reason that I explained while still play competitive. Playing to be one of the best is not the only way to play competitive. People can still go for the fun factor and play competitive. And not give a darn about money or being someone in this communuity. I know alot of people who are like that.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I'm calling Gimmick on Black Marf. Posting that well and only 22 posts? Eh, join date of November 09, could be a longtime lurker...

 

[Zankoku]

Its actually more similar to peach bomber I guess. Since during that technique you are close enough to the stage to get hit, but going after you would be very very risky. That technique was also banned.

I think the Peach Bomber stall is an archaic ruling, seeing as how it's only possible to actually stall with the technique in certain locations (like Fourside, which is banned), and pretty much everywhere else you're forced to rise due to the limitations of the move itself anyway.

 

[theunabletable]

You took that out of context.

No he didn't.

Your argument is that people who are not as good as Ally/ADHD find it extremely difficult to defeat MKs, so MK should be banned so these people have a chance.

THAT IS YOUR ARGUMENT. That people who are NOT Ally/ADHD have trouble with MK. If we ban MK for that reason, then we are banning MK to give those players a better chance.

To you, not to everyone else.

You'd think if the SBR used your view on what matters (which is being a popular character, but losing) that MK might have been banned.

How do you know that the Diddy player is not just simply that much better than the Metaknights?

So what if he is? This so called broken character couldn't win? He isn't broken, then, in practical play.

Because the Diddy player is better than the MK player.

And? The completely broken and bannable character at the peak of his current metagame lost. 3-0'd, actually.

That isn't the sign of a bannable character.

Show me where I ever said MK was broken in this thread. Of course it matters who wins. But you are saying that 1st place is all that matters. 2-8 matters as well. Do you see Ankoku using ONLY first place results in his thread? Didn't think so.

Why would anyone in their right mind argue that a non-broken character should be banned?

They matter, but not in this case.

You are saying 2-8 (minus number 3) is evidence that MK should be banned. ADHD won that tournament.

It shows that at the highest level of metagame, skill overcomes character (to a certain extent).

Thus banning MK would ONLY be for the people who have trouble with MK.

We should ban Diddy or Falco because I have trouble with them, and D3 because some people have trouble with him.

Ban ICs because if you're bad you'll get grabbed.

 

[WindMajor]

I just put up an argument explaining why the whole "if ADHD can do it, why can't you?" argument would only prove the pro-bans point, but it went completely ignored. Here it is again, but written differently.

I use TL. I am one of the many characters that are at a disadvantage to Metaknight. NOTHING WRONG WITH BEING AT A DISADVANTAGE, I'M JUST SAYING.

Now, I know that the matchup is 40:60, although some TLs think it's at 35:65. This means that if I knew the matchup 100% and so did my opponent, I would be predicted to lose. I'm not saying that being predicted to lose is bad, or that MK is unbeatable or broken. I'm just saying that it's going to be an uphill battle and that I have a bigger chance of losing than my opponent does.

So, what can I do to get better chances of winning? I could work EVEN HARDER to make my character go against the odds and learn how to reduce all my mistakes consistently. That's an option.

OR

I could pick up a character with more chances of winning. The best choice would be MK. Why?

-Because MK is MK's biggest enemy.
-MK is generally easier to pick up than Snake, Diddy, or any of the other characters.
-There's a lot more room for error with MK, since he has so many options available to him. I wouldn't have to play perfect like I would if I were to play as TL.
-If I pick up MK, I would have no need for another secondary, or better yet, another main.

So if I were to play to win, what would the obvious choice be? Playing perfect with TL, or counterpicking the best character in the game?

If I were me (which I am), I would go Metaknight.

Spoiler

best statement ever lol

Since everyone who isn't Ally or ADHD apparently sucks and needs to learn the matchup. So what happened if EVERYONE did what I did?

MK would dominate Brawl, which would eventually prove that MK is overcentralized, and should be stopped.



But why should we appeal to all the noobs that aren't in the top level of play?
....Well, because they are the majority in our community, and the community is what's helping the TOs by paying off the venues, prize money, and bringing setups.

 

[Jack Kieser]

But why should we appeal to all the noobs that aren't in the top level of play?
....Well, because they are the majority in our community, and the community is what's helping the TOs by paying off the venues, prize money, and bringing setups.

Why do you say things that are so obviously not true in the slightest?

...O, WAI--

 

[.AC.]

@Flan de Piñalechuga

how easy he is to pick up is a baaaad argument.

 

[theunabletable]

The best choice would be MK.

What a surprise.

Who would've thought the best character in the game would be a good choice.

I thought you'd say Ganon!

MK would dominate Brawl, which would eventually prove that MK is overcentralized, and should be stopped.

Hasn't happened yet.

ICs theoretically have 100-0 matchups on everyone with perfect shield SDI.

The game could one day come down to pick ICs or lose because if played right they can shield grab everything.

....Well, because they are the majority in our community, and the community is what's helping the TOs by paying off the venues, prize money, and bringing setups.

A 100% ban isn't what's best for the community.

 

[WindMajor]

Why do you say things that are so obviously not true in the slightest?

...O, WAI--

Didn't I take this argument from you? xD

@Flan de Piñalechuga

how easy he is to pick up is a baaaad argument.

It might be, but picking up Metaknight is probably gonna be easier than not making mistakes with TL. That's just my case.

What a surprise.

How would've thought the best character in the game would be a good choice.

I thought you'd say Ganon!

That's exactly my point. Metaknight would be the obvious choice. You just proved me right.

Hasn't happened yet.

I know that. I didn't say it happened now, I said that it would eventually happen. There's numerical evidence that says that MK is growing. How long would we have to wait until it's too late?

ICs theoretically have 100-0 matchups on everyone with perfect shield SDI.

The game could one day come down to pick ICs or lose because if played right they can shield grab everything.

Theoretically. Then again, he isn't broken. There isn't a flood of ICs everywhere. IC's aren't winning major tournaments, or even proving that a non existant matchup exists.

 

[Magus-Cie]

Sign of Madness, I ask you one simple question.

Can you prove that the Ally/ADHD victories were the rule, and not just an exception?

 

[Black Marf]

I'm calling Gimmick on Black Marf. Posting that well and only 22 posts? Eh, join date of November 09, could be a longtime lurker...

The hell is a gimmick?

I've been lurking (without an account) on swf off and on for about a year, and decided to make an account in November. I'm just getting annoyed at the amount of (what I see as) misunderstandings and bad arguments that are being flung across both sides.

 

[.AC.]

Didn't I take this argument from you? xD


It might be, but picking up Metaknight is probably gonna be easier than not making mistakes with TL. That's just my case.

picking up dedede would be easier than not making mistakes with TL


BAN DEDEDE

 

[Magus-Cie]

The hell is a gimmick?

I've been lurking (without an account) on swf off and on for about a year, and decided to make an account in November. I'm just getting annoyed at the amount of (what I see as) misunderstandings and bad arguments that are being flung across both sides.

Welcome to the Brawl Tactical Metaknight boards.

 

[RDK]

Seriously, anti-ban is getting just as bad as pro-ban with how it clings to one or two players who are that much more skilled than the MK's they played.

ADHD is much more skilled than Mew2King?

 

[Overswarm]

ICs theoretically have 100-0 matchups on everyone with perfect shield SDI.

This isn't true, as nana cannot perfect shield if popo does.

 

[RDK]

Of course it goes both ways, but the issue is that currently, the anti-ban sign is bringing u only TWO players.
That is hardly direct evidence of anything.
It can be an ndication, possibly, but such acts would need to be replicated so that it wont just be a result of SKILL rather than that of character ability.

It's a response to pro-ban people who say it's impossible to beat MK in a higher-level tournament setting.

 

[theunabletable]

Can you prove that the Ally/ADHD victories were the rule, and not just an exception?

Ally and ADHD have won more big tournaments than M2K, the peak of the practical and current MK metagame, has.

This isn't true, as nana cannot perfect shield if popo does.

If hitlag lasts long enough on Popo's shield before the hitbox hit's Nana's shield, then Nana can perfect shield it, too.

And frame perfect SoPo can CG characters to ridiculous %, more than enough time to get Nana back if she got hit at all for whatever reason..

 

[Magus-Cie]

Ally and ADHD have won more big tournaments than M2K, the peak of the practical and current MK metagame, has.

And how many times have those two faced the top MK players like they did in Pound 4/The other big one?

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

No he didn't.

Your argument is that people who are not as good as Ally/ADHD find it extremely difficult to defeat MKs, so MK should be banned so these people have a chance.

THAT IS YOUR ARGUMENT. That people who are NOT Ally/ADHD have trouble with MK. If we ban MK for that reason, then we are banning MK to give those players a better chance.

That's definitely not what I said, and if you interpreted what I said as that, then you are incorrect. That's a horrible reason to ban MK. I was stating that that would be a good thing that would come out of an MK ban, NOT a reason he should be banned.

You'd think if the SBR used your view on what matters (which is being a popular character, but losing) that MK might have been banned. So what if he is? This so called broken character couldn't win? He isn't broken, then, in practical play. And? The completely broken and bannable character at the peak of his current metagame lost. 3-0'd, actually.

WHO IS SAYING MK SHOULD BE BANNED BECAUSE HE'S "BROKEN?"

Stop pulling **** out of your ***.

M2K lost because ADHD played better than he did.

That isn't the sign of a bannable character.

Then what is? Tell me please.

Why would anyone in their right mind argue that a non-broken character should be banned?

What exactly does "broken" mean?

They matter, but not in this case.

And why is that?

You are saying 2-8 (minus number 3) is evidence that MK should be banned. ADHD won that tournament.

Yes, ADHD won.

This is not explicit evidence, but it does show MK's dominance. Dominance does not mean winning in this instance. Dominance means the amount of players using the character and getting good placings.

Thus banning MK would ONLY be for the people who have trouble with MK.

And this consists of every non-MK player other than ADHD and Ally. I'd say that's a fair amount of people.

We should ban Diddy or Falco because I have trouble with them, and D3 because some people have trouble with him.

Ban ICs because if you're bad you'll get grabbed.

No. This isn't about me, you, or any other individual. This is about the community as a whole.

 

[theunabletable]

Well there was Genesis that Ally won.

That's the biggest Brawl tourney IIRC.

That's definitely not what I said, and if you interpreted what I said as that, then you are incorrect. That's a horrible reason to ban MK. I was stating that that would be a good thing that would come out of an MK ban, NOT a reason he should be banned.

Then what IS the reason for why he should be banned?

WHO IS SAYING MK SHOULD BE BANNED BECAUSE HE'S "BROKEN?"

Most pro-ban do.

Why would we ban a character that isn't broken?

Once again, what is the EXACT reason from YOU NOT OVERSWARM for why he should be banned.

Then what is? Tell me please.

A character that you have to play to win at the highest level of practical play. MK isn't this.

What exactly does "broken" mean?

See above.

And why is that?

Popularity =/= bannable

This is not explicit evidence, but it does show MK's dominance. Dominance does not mean winning in this instance. Dominance means the amount of players using the character and getting good placings.

This form of dominance is irrelevant for seeing anything other than who is most popular.

And this consists of every non-MK player other than ADHD and Ally. I'd say that's a fair amount of people.

If he can be beat, then he shouldn't be banned. People should get to ADHD/Ally level if they plan on winning. If they aren't good enough to win like ADHD and Ally do, tough luck for them.

Tell me, what IS BANNABLE to you?

 

[Zankoku]

No. This isn't about me, you, or any other individual. This is about the community as a whole.

Well, hey, lain got 9th at Pound 4. That's a 190-person tournament. 178 people might've benefited if Ice Climbers were banned. : j

 

[Black Marf]

Ally and ADHD have won more big tournaments than M2K, the peak of the practical and current MK metagame, has.

That isn't what he asked for.

We know that Ally and ADHD are really good, really smart, and know their matchups well.

The question is whether or not anybody else can realistically replicate their results.

In other words, can another Diddy of equivalent skill to the MKs in his tournament realistically get first place. If not, then the game isn't properly balanced. The game has stopped being about who can play the game better (except notable exceptions whose importance is being misinterpreted by certain members of both sides), and has instead become a game of who has chosen the best character. And then who's the better player of that character.*

EDIT: I just reread the quoted statement. Holy crap, why do people around here mistake the characters and the players as the same so much around here? Ally and ADHD are not "the peak of Snake's/Diddy's metagame", they are really ****ing good players who play their characters at a high level. M2K is not "the peak of the current MK metagame", he is just a really good player who plays MK at a high level. ADHD beating M2K != Diddy beating MK.

I'm sure there's a specific logical fallacy for this, but I really don't want to look it up.


*Oh yeah, and this exists in every game to a certain extent. Counterpicks exist for a reason. People just complain because the magnitude as it applies to MK seems too large.

 

[WindMajor]

It's a response to pro-ban people who say it's impossible to beat MK in a higher-level tournament setting.

Which is almost no one. You're behind.

 

[Magus-Cie]

Well there was Genesis that Ally won.

That's the biggest Brawl tourney IIRC.

But still, how does this one victory by these two players prove beating MK is a reasonable expectation after all of the other losses?

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Well, hey, lain got 9th at Pound 4. That's a 190-person tournament. 178 people might've benefited if Ice Climbers were banned. : j

>_>

Maybe if it were a round robin tournament and everyone had to play lain.

 

[MarKO X]

*sigh*

MK debating is ridiculous. It honestly looks like pro-ban are hardcore scrubs and anti-ban are hardcore elitist. Not that either side is what I claimed... that's just how it looks.

I do think its funny that the anti-ban want the concrete evidence for why MK should be banned, but neglect to request the concrete evidence for rules that were created either directly or indirectly because of MK (namely the Ledge Grab Rule).

Unfortunately, at this rate, all that's going to happen is the arguing is going to continue, Mk won't get banned because nothing is truly conclusive enough to ban him, and... well, that's about all I can predict without tarot cards.

Edit: There was something about how certain characters would benefit from MK getting banned... has it ever occurred to anyone that maybe MK benefited from the ledge grab rule?

 

[.AC.]

lain also plays dedede, therefore dedede should also have to be banned to benefit people.

 

[RDK]

Which is almost no one. You're behind.

Doesn't matter. If I still hear people spewing random nonsense that has been debunked pages ago, I'm still going to call them out on it.

But still, how does this one victory by these two players prove beating MK is a reasonable expectation after all of the other losses?

Let me ask you a question.

How many top spots in tournaments does a character have to occupy before said character becomes worthy of a ban?

 

[WindMajor]

A 100% ban isn't what's best for the community.

Are you going to explain this anytime soon?

Plus, an SBR-B ban isn't a rule. It's a guideline.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I went through and found that planking invalidates 15 (imo) characters of the cast because they have no answer to it

another 19 (imo) can not deal with MK's type of planking or camping

that leaves a total of ABOUT 5 characters who can deal with MKs planking AS GAY AS POSSIBLE

Jiggs
ness
lucas
snake
kirby
G&W
diddy
MAYBE 1-2 more MAYBE less



just to let you all know, z-dropping items is a way to beat normal planking. it DOES NOT beat MK's type of planking.

MK invalidates AT LEAST 80% of the cast with planking and ledge camping legal.

/Agree

Neads moar testing

The hell is a gimmick?

I've been lurking (without an account) on swf off and on for about a year, and decided to make an account in November. I'm just getting annoyed at the amount of (what I see as) misunderstandings and bad arguments that are being flung across both sides.

Gimmick: account that belongs to someone else. I.e. you are an account made by a big-name poster (OS, AP, etc.) It's a compliment in your case.

 

[Overswarm]

Sign of Madness, if an MK had won Pound 4 would you have changed your tune?

 

[Magus-Cie]

Doesn't matter. If I still hear people spewing random nonsense that has been debunked pages ago, I'm still going to call them out on it.



Let me ask you a question.

How many top spots in tournaments does a character have to occupy before said character becomes worthy of a ban?

I do not know. That is not what I am focusing on. Right now my sole purpose for asking is to gain a deeper understanding of Sign of Madness' reasoning.

 

[WindMajor]

Doesn't matter. If I still hear people spewing random nonsense that has been debunked pages ago, I'm still going to call them out on it.

Yes it does matter. If no one is arguing against you, then you're just arguing with yourself.

Wasn't the reason that the items discussion was brought up was because we were trying to argue about what goes and what doesn't go with the ban criteria that YOU brought up?