Official Metaknight Discussion

[Espy Rose]

The fact that two people have been able to beat the seemingly unbeatable character should be a sign of hope for the game, not hopelessness.

Can you help me by pointing out exactly WHO is saying that Meta Knight is seemingly unbeatable?

 

[.AC.]

i dont win tournaments because there are mk players.

 

[Zankoku]

People are claiming that anyone can get to the top level of play if they just get better. I was saying that since two players have reached this level in two years, it clearly ISN'T THAT EASY. Let's be realistic, people.

See, the funny thing is, it's true. You CAN get to the top level of play by getting better. It's a pretty simple fact.

And why would you discount people who consistently place up top but can't quite beat M2K/Ally/ADHD yet? If this is your first competitive game, I think you should know that when someone reaches the very top, it's pretty rare for him to take anything less than first repeatedly for a long time. Mango taking less than first once in the entire past year is normal. M2K taking first (or second, due to Ally and later ADHD) consistently in the entire past year is normal. Like you said, it's not easy getting to the top.

 

[theunabletable]

@Espy: No one is.

Except there is no god **** logical reason for MK to be banned for any other reason.

I don't CARE if people worse than ADHD, Ally, and M2K filled the top 8. The people filling the top 8 are NOT the absolute highest level of their character's metagame.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

@Espy: No one is.

Except there is no god **** reason for MK to be banned for any other reason

I love how you refute these arguments without even mentioning what they are!

I love that.

Love.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

This makes no sense to me. You can't BE at the pinnacle of competition if MK is still an issue for you. That's the wall that needs climbing.

Exactly. And therefore there are two players that do not have a problem with MK.

The fact that two people have been able to beat the seemingly unbeatable character should be a sign of hope for the game, not hopelessness.

Let's take a step back. There are thousands of competitive Brawlers. Brawl has been out for two years. TWO OF THEM have been able to beat the best MK. We'll say there are 2,000 competitive Brawlers, although I'm sure there are more. That's .1% of the smash community that have gotten to the "top level of play" that aren't MKs. It's .05% of the smash community per year.

Also, no one's saying that MK is unbeatable.

Competitive gaming runs into these issues, all of them have at one time or another. If you remove this obstacle, you're weakening the entire community needlessly.

That's certainly one way to look at it, but on the other hand it strengthens all those who had trouble with MK.

 

[theunabletable]

My 45 other posts in this thread cover that.

MK getting 6 out of 8 at a tournament that MK didn't win IS NOT EVIDENCE for MK to be banned.

TWO OF THEM have been able to beat the best MK.

1 player has beaten Mango's Jiggs in the last two years. Ban Jiggs (ironically a Jiggs still won when Mango lost to Kage. And Mango even had a hangover at the time).

At the highest level of competition he isn't broken. These much, much more skilled players than you can do it.

NO JOHNS

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Can someone anti-ban please sum up the arguments against banning MK? Is it just "get better nub" and "MK isn't dominant enough"?

If the former is seriously a case, then how about this: at the highest level of play, Metaknight will win. He will almost always win. There will be no reason to pick anyone else because he wins the most. Everyone he shuts down will be not only inviable, but will never EVER take a stock off of him. This is assuming the very highest level of play possible. In fact, it's unlikely that Snake will remain second-best, or retain a winnable matchup against MK. Diddy might be almost winnable. Thoughts?

EDIT: @MK isn't dominant enough, see OS's charts.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

@Matado, banning MK because his users are so much better than us is exactly NOT the point I'm trying to get across. Ur saying people should just get better, as generic as that sounds and w/ people ALREADY trying to improve I just don't believe it'll happen in time. Especially w/ growing population into Hacks.

And you've failed to add more 2 ur belief in "playing to be the best" so I assume that criteria is nothing now.

 

[RDK]

Can someone anti-ban please sum up the arguments against banning MK? Is it just "get better nub" and "MK isn't dominant enough"?

If the former is seriously a case, then how about this: at the highest level of play, Metaknight will win. He will almost always win. There will be no reason to pick anyone else because he wins the most. Everyone he shuts down will be not only inviable, but will never EVER take a stock off of him. This is assuming the very highest level of play possible. In fact, it's unlikely that Snake will remain second-best, or retain a winnable matchup against MK. Diddy might be almost winnable. Thoughts?

EDIT: @MK isn't dominant enough, see OS's charts.

You do realize that fighting games have to have a best character, right?

Do you think before you post?

 

[BarDulL]

does it matter? there is a reason why rules are implemented.

I believe I answered your question when I edited my post. I had made my post prematurely, and left out some substance. Apologies!

It concerns me that your name is in dark purple but we've never met...

Uh...I am pleased to meet your acquaintance!

Well, falco and ICs would be shut out completely, along with a few others.

Hmm...that is a problem! But! The mechanics of MK permit him to do this within the scope that the game intended. Scrooging and Planking are not glitches! They are merely powerful strategies.

Something that is extremely effective, such as planking, doesn't necessarily make it ban worthy! If you use that logic, this applies to MK as well. MK is very good, but ban worthy? It is very hard to determine whether or not something is ban worthy. Simply using the excuse "but it's so gay though," and "its so cheap," does not a ban make!

 

[Kuraudo]

Oh ****. Here we go.

 

[theunabletable]

EDIT: @MK isn't dominant enough, see OS's charts.

@OS's charts: See who won Pound 4

If the former is seriously a case, then how about this: at the highest level of play, Metaknight will win.

No at the highest level of play ICs will always win because with perfect shield SDI they can shield grab everything.

Practical > theoretical

 

[Flayl]

Top MKs: M2K, Tyrant, Dojo, Shadow, Ksizzle, Anti, DSF, Judge, Seibrik


From October 1st to January 31st:

Anti
- 3rd out of 39 at Gauntlet 10-03-09, lost to Ally (Snake) and ADHD (Diddy)
- 3rd out of 53 at DAPHNE I, lost to Ally (Snake) and ADHD (Diddy)
- 4th out of 100 at Viridian City 6, lost to Mew2King (MK) and Meep (IC)
- 1st out of 34 at Bum Presents: The Gamers, 0 sets lost
- 3rd out of 74 at PolyBrawl 11.28, can't find any brackets - outplaced by Ally (Snake) and ADHD (Diddy)

Dojo
- 1st out of 71 at HOBO 19, can't find any brackets
- 1st out of 71 at Phase 2, 0 sets lost
- 1st out of 39 at Phase 3, can't find any brackets
- 4th out of 50 at HOBO 21, lost to Hylian (IC/G&W) and Razer (Snake)
- 2nd out of 46 at Final Smash 8, lost to Razer (Snake) twice
- 1st out of 48 at Phase 5, 0 sets lost

DSF
- 1st out of 43 at CGC XII, 0 sets lost
- 1st out of 49 at CGC @ SFSU 13, 0 sets lost
- 3rd out of 120 at R3, lost to DEHF (Falco) and Tyrant (MK)
- 1st out of 109 (split with Tyrant) at UCSD Winter Game Fest V, can't find any brackets
- 3rd out of 70 at SCSA West Coast Circuit #5, lost to DEHF (Falco) and Tyrant (MK)

Judge
- 2nd out of 61 at Brawl Bootcamp Lvl. 2, lost to Mew2King (MK) twice
- 2nd out of 31 at LoLiS 4, lost to Mew2King (MK) twice
- 2nd out of 30 at Kuntasm, lost to Mew2King (MK) twice
- 1st out of 42 at LoLiS 5, lost to Anther (Pikachu) once
- 5th out of 190 at Pound 4, lost to Shadow (MK) and Ksizzle (Lucario)
- 3rd out 27 at Michigan Ball Z, forfeit (don't know when or why)

Ksizzle
- 7th out of 100 at Viridian City 6, lost to Ally (Snake) and Atomsk (???)
- 2nd out of 60 at Crank That Kosha Boy!, lost to Ally (Snake) twice
- 2nd out of 24 at Daisho's Tournament 11/21/09, can't find any brackets - lost to Cable (DK)
- 4th out of 190 at Pound 4, lost to ADHD (Diddy) and Ally (Snake)

Mew2King
- 1st out of 36 at LoLiS 2, 0 sets lost
- 1st out of 61 at Brawl Bootcamp Lvl2, 0 sets lost
- 2nd out of 100 at Viridian City 6, lost to Ally (Snake) twice
- 1st out of 39 at lain's Lollapalooza, 0 sets lost
- 1st out of 31 at LoLiS 4, 0 sets lost
- 1st out of 30 at Kuntasm, 0 sets lost
- 1st out of 89 at Winterfest, 0 sets lost
- 2nd out of 45 at Wiegraf Too Good, lost to ADHD (Diddy) twice
- 1st out of 29 at Wait, AGAIN?!, 0 sets lost
- 2nd out of 190 at Pound 4, lost to ADHD (Diddy) twice
- 1st out of 30 at Delta Upsilon II, 0 sets lost
- 1st out of 53 at OC #2: M2k's Monthly Donation Fund, 0 sets lost

Seibrik
- 2nd out of 41 at Gigabits - A Fall Brawl, can't find any brackets - lost to RedHalberd (MK)
- 2nd out of 24 at WATO 8.5, can't find any brackets - lost to RedHalberd (MK/Snake)
- 2nd out of 89 at Winterfest 2009, can't find any brackets - lost to Mew2King (MK)
- 1st out of 28 (split with CO18) at WATO 9, can't find any brackets
- 2nd out of 39 at FIU Brawl Tourney 1/23, lost to Nick Riddle (ZSS) twice

Shadow
- 4th out of 60 at Crank That Kosha Boy!, lost to Meep (IC) and ADHD (Diddy)
- 2nd out of 45 at KTAR, lost to Ally (Snake) twice
- 2nd out of 25 at Powerplay Gaming Tournament, lost to Atomsk (???) and Ally (Snake)
- 3rd out of 45 at Wiegraf Too Good, lost to ADHD (Diddy) and Mew2King (MK)
- 3rd out of 29 at Paradigm Presents: WAIT, AGAIN?!, can't find any brackets - outplaced by ADHD (Diddy) and Mew2King (MK)
- 5th out of 190 at Pound 4, lost to Mew2King (MK) and Ally (Snake)
- 1st out of 33 (split with DM Brandon) at DNA Gaming USA #2, lost to DM Brandon (MK)?
- 1st out of 34 at Syracuse Smash 2, 0 sets lost

Tyrant
- 3rd out of 43 at CGC XII, lost to DSF (MK) and michealHAZE (Marth)
- 5th out of 100 at Viridian City 6, lost to Ally (Snake) and Meep (IC)
- 2nd out of 120 at R3, lost to DEHF (Falco) twice
- 1st out of 18 at The BR Act: Program 1, 0 sets lost
- 1st out of 109 (split with DSF) at UCSD Winter Game Fest V, can't find any brackets
- 2nd out of 70 at SCSA West Coast Circuit #5, lost to DEHF (Falco) twice

If you have any info on set losses let me know.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

You do realize that fighting games have to have a best character, right?

Do you think before you post?

Okay, I'll give you this one. That was pretty stupid on my part.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

See, the funny thing is, it's true. You CAN get to the top level of play by getting better. It's a pretty simple fact.

Yes, I don't disagree with that. The fact remains that it is extremely difficult to reach that level, considering that only two people have in two years.

And why would you discount people who consistently place up top but can't quite beat M2K/Ally/ADHD yet? If this is your first competitive game, I think you should know that when someone reaches the very top, it's pretty rare for him to take anything less than first repeatedly for a long time. Mango taking less than first once in the entire past year is normal. M2K taking first (or second, due to Ally and later ADHD) consistently in the entire past year is normal. Like you said, it's not easy getting to the top.

What's your point?

 

[Zankoku]

The fact remains that it is extremely difficult to reach that level, considering that only two people have in two years.

I do not see why this is a problem at all. If it were easy to become "one of the best" then the game would hold little appeal competitively.

Also, three. You're discounting M2K, for some reason.

And people like Azen and DSF who were top players in the opening year.

 

[RDK]

Okay, I'll give you this one. That was pretty stupid on my part.

The concept in and of itself isn't stupid, just the argument you put forth; if most players were indeed playing to win, then yes, everyone would be playing MK. However, for whatever reason, that's not the case.

We could say the same about Melee, or any other fighting game. It wouldn't be a problem because usually counters factor into it, but in this case MK doesn't really have any counters; the closest we have is Diddy.

The main problem is that MK is good enough to be incredibly annoying and destructive to the metagame without being bad enough to warrant a ban.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

@OS's charts: See who won Pound 4

Would you say this if the person who won Pound 4 was a Captain Falcon with absolutely absurd reflexes? No, of course not. You would push it aside as a border case. Which is what it is with ADHD and his diddy. How many times do we have to say it?

EDIT:

The main problem is that MK is good enough to be incredibly annoying and destructive to the metagame without being bad enough to warrant a ban.

Isn't being incredibly destructive to the metagame and the community enough?

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

My 45 other posts in this thread cover that.

MK getting 6 out of 8 at a tournament that MK didn't win IS NOT EVIDENCE for MK to be banned.

Why not?

Besides, that's in your opinion anyway. You don't get to decide that.

1 player has beaten Mango's Jiggs in the last two years. Ban Jiggs (ironically a Jiggs still won when Mango lost to Kage. And Mango even had a hangover at the time).

Go ahead. This is Brawl though.

At the highest level of competition he isn't broken. These much, much more skilled players than you can do it.

NO JOHNS

That's fine. I don't even play Brawl, and I don't care what comes out of this debate. I just like to debate. I'm not johning. I'm not some butthurt mother****er who's pissed because he can't beat MK.

 

[Flayl]

Would you say this if the person who won Pound 4 was a Captain Falcon with absolutely absurd reflexes? No, of course not. You would push it aside as a border case. Which is what it is with ADHD and his diddy. How many times do we have to say it?

We know the difference between implausibility and fact?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I don't see the problem. Diddy is not quite as far back, sure, but still.

 

[Zankoku]

Why not?

Besides, that's in your opinion anyway. You don't get to decide that.



Go ahead. This is Brawl though.



That's fine. I don't even play Brawl, and I don't care what comes out of this debate. I just like to debate. I'm not johning. I'm not some butthurt mother****er who's pissed because he can't beat MK.

This entire post certainly does explain your level of disconnectedness with the overall player level hierarchy in practically every fighter game that is competitively played.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

I do not see why this is a problem at all. If it were easy to become "one of the best" then the game would hold little appeal competitively.

I never said that was a problem.

Also, three. You're discounting M2K, for some reason.

I was talking about people who were able to beat M2K. Of course M2K is up there.

And people like Azen and DSF who were top players in the opening year.

This discussion is taking place here and now, not in the opening year, so I'm keeping this current.

 

[RDK]

Isn't being incredibly destructive to the metagame and the community enough?

No, because "incredibly destructive to the metagame and community" is an opinion; one I happen to hold. But I still don't think that should be the reason for banning him; he's simply not broken enough.

ADHD beating M2K was the nail in the coffin as far as I'm concerned. At top level play, it is certainly possible to come up even with MK, especially with Diddy now being developed.

Edit: come on now. Comparing Diddy with Falcon as a border case is straight foolishness.

 

[Zankoku]

I never said that was a problem.

I'm seriously having trouble understanding why you continued to bring up "but only TWO PEOPLE can beat M2K!!" when it's not a problem and not especially relevant, either.

 

[Hylian]

From October 1st to December 31st, Dojo:
- 1st place at HOBO 19, can't find any brackets
- 1st place at Phase 2, 0 set losses
- 1st place at Phase 3, can't find any brackets
- 4th place at HOBO 21, can't find any brackets (2 diddys and 1 snake ahead)

If you have any info on set losses let me know.

Dojo's last two tournaments were Hobo21 and Final Smash 8.

He took 4th at Hobo21 losing to me in winners and razer in losers (IC's/GW/Snake)
He took 2nd at FS8 losing to razers snake twice.

 

[theunabletable]

Would you say this if the person who won Pound 4 was a Captain Falcon with absolutely absurd reflexes? No, of course not. You would push it aside as a border case. Which is what it is with ADHD and his diddy. How many times do we have to say it?

Did a Captain Falcon win?

No ADHD won.

Theoretical doesn't matter, what happens is what matters.

I'm assuming you missed this edit (and most of my other posts):

"No at the highest level of play ICs will always win because with perfect shield SDI they can shield grab everything.

Practical > theoretical"

Look up a little and you'll see what I was replying to.

If ICs started to SDI everything perfectly you'd admit that MK isn't as broken as ICs.

But that hasn't happened.

CF didn't win Pound 4, ADHD who is at the top of the current metagame did.

At the highest level of practical metagame, MK is not broken. We aren't catering to the bads or the scrubs. He isn't broken if you're good.

Get good or stop johning

 

[Flayl]

Dojo's last two tournaments were Hobo21 and Final Smash 8.

He took 4th at Hobo21 losing to me in winners and razer in losers (IC's/GW/Snake)
He took 2nd at FS8 losing to razers snake twice.

Thank you. Updating.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

I'm seriously having trouble understanding why you continued to bring up "but only TWO PEOPLE can beat M2K!!" when it's not a problem and not especially relevant, either.

People are claiming that anyone can reach the top. Not you, others in this thread. Two people can consistently beat the best player. I have nothing wrong with the fact that only two players can beat M2K, he's a great player. But if it were just a matter of "getting better," then why haven't more than two people reached this level? It's not like the second tier players aren't getting better. Why aren't they at the first tier of players?

 

[ShadowLink84]

Has anyone ever thought that, you know, ADHD and Ally are human, and humans are prone to mistakes, hence why ADHD was capable of taking advantage of those mistakes to a greater degere than the MK's who did not know the matchup as well?

Just saying.
I am anti-ban, but really, sticking to ONE person's capability?
These people are human, there is BOUND to be error, there is always something that culd have been done better.

If ADHD is the only one doing it, that may mean that ADHD is just that much more skilled than everyone else, and so he made up for whatever the MU may be.
Simple as that.

 

[Ripple]

I went through and found that planking invalidates 15 (imo) characters of the cast because they have no answer to it

another 19 (imo) can not deal with MK's type of planking or camping

that leaves a total of ABOUT 5 characters who can deal with MKs planking AS GAY AS POSSIBLE

Jiggs
ness
lucas
snake
kirby
G&W
diddy
MAYBE 1-2 more MAYBE less



just to let you all know, z-dropping items is a way to beat normal planking. it DOES NOT beat MK's type of planking.

MK invalidates AT LEAST 80% of the cast with planking and ledge camping legal.

 

[RDK]

Has anyone ever thought that, you know, ADHD and Ally are human, and humans are prone to mistakes, hence why ADHD was capable of taking advantage of those mistakes to a greater degere than the MK's who did not know the matchup as well?

Just saying.
I am anti-ban, but really, sticking to ONE person's capability?
These people are human, there is BOUND to be error, there is always something that culd have been done better.

If ADHD is the only one doing it, that may mean that ADHD is just that much more skilled than everyone else, and so he made up for whatever the MU may be.
Simple as that.

If we're going to bring human accountability into it than it works both ways. This means that MK mains are just as susceptible to screw-ups as Diddy mains, or any other players. The only difference is MK is usually able to capitalize on said mistakes better than the rest of the roster.

TL;DR

You can't have you cake and eat it too.

 

[Flayl]

just to let you all know, z-dropping items is a way to beat normal planking. it DOES NOT beat MK's type of planking.

MK invalidates AT LEAST 80% of the cast with planking and ledge camping legal.

Can you post a vid in the other thread or send me a replay with a demonstration?

 

[etecoon]

snake can't really deal with a planky MK that has a significant lead, his supposed ability to do so is a complete lie. air camping is also very effective on him.

 

[Matador]

Let's take a step back. There are thousands of competitive Brawlers. Brawl has been out for two years. TWO OF THEM have been able to beat the best MK. We'll say there are 2,000 competitive Brawlers, although I'm sure there are more. That's .1% of the smash community that have gotten to the "top level of play" that aren't MKs. It's .05% of the smash community per year.

...So? Because everyone isn't capable of beating MK YET, we should accommodate mediocrity (not speaking specifically to pro-ban, so don't get pissy with me.)?

I swear, pro-ban must work for PG county public schools. Every year they're changing tests and making them easier because too many stupid kids keep failing them, despite a number of them still passing. Forget actually studying to pass the tests like the other kids who can, they figure "let's just remove this obstacle because it's too hard for them."

Also, no one's saying that MK is unbeatable.

How do you guys not see that you're proclaiming MK as unbeatable? If you're bringing up all of these charts and facts about how many people AREN'T beating MK and how often MK is winning tourneys, then how can you honestly say that you still believe he's beatable?

If he were beatable, we wouldn't have this debate. If he were beatable, the droves of players losing to and complaining about MK wouldn't matter; they'd simply need to improve. If he were beatable, we wouldn't look at tourney results and see a bunch of MKs at the top as a "problem that needs resolving". Instead, we'd see players who used the best player in the game, coupled with time and practice, doing well in tournaments.

If you take what I said in that quote literally, then no, nobody said he's "unbeatable". However, if he's not unbeatable, then why is he such an issue for those who can't beat him?

That's certainly one way to look at it, but on the other hand it strengthens all those who had trouble with MK.

How does it strengthen them if they still can't beat MK?

 

[.AC.]

snake can't really deal with a planky MK that has a significant lead, his supposed ability to do so is a complete lie. air camping is also very effective on him.

have you heard of cooking grenades?

@ BarDulL

where did you go?

 

[etecoon]

have you heard of cooking grenades? they taste quite good or so i've heard.

because it's so difficult to avoid an attack that telegraphs itself by 3.5 seconds when you're right next to an object that makes you invincible and you have space to move around safely too.

snake's anti-planking game is badly overrated

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

...So? Because everyone isn't capable of beating MK YET, we should accommodate mediocrity (not speaking specifically to pro-ban, so don't get pissy with me.)?

You assume that other people will rise to that level. Let's keep it realistic as opposed to going into the future.

I swear, pro-ban must work for PG county public schools. Every year they're changing tests and making them easier because too many stupid kids keep failing them, despite a number of them still passing. Forget actually studying to pass the tests like the other kids who can, they figure "let's just remove this obstacle because it's too hard for them."

Yes but only two kids can pass these tests, so it makes sense for them to be changed.

How do you guys not see that you're proclaiming MK as unbeatable? If you're bringing up all of these charts and facts about how many people AREN'T beating MK and how often MK is winning tourneys, then how can you honestly say that you still believe he's beatable?

If he were beatable, we wouldn't have this debate. If he were beatable, the droves of players losing to and complaining about MK wouldn't matter; they'd simply need to improve. If he were beatable, we wouldn't look at tourney results and see a bunch of MKs at the top as a "problem that needs resolving". Instead, we'd see players who used the best player in the game, coupled with time and practice, doing well in tournaments.

I'm sorry what? He's obviously beatable. EVERYONE KNOWS THAT. ADHD has beaten him, Ally has beaten him. No one is arguing this. We're saying he is extremely difficult to beat and is dominating the tournament see, not that it's imposibl for him to evr looz evr.

How does it strengthen them if they still can't beat MK?

Because MK is out of the game so they don't have to worry about him.

 

[.AC.]

because it's so difficult to avoid an attack that telegraphs itself by 3.5 seconds when you're right next to an object that makes you invincible and you have space to move around safely too.

snake's anti-planking game is badly overrated

yeah because he only has c4,usmash,grenades and some useless nikita thing.